272 réponses à ce sujet

[HTTP 404]

wizardryforever wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...

Samara's cleavage doesnt look natural. it looks like a botched surgery

Might not look natural on a human, but this is a fictional alien race we're talking about here.  The asari are a Bioware creation, who are we to say what is and isn't natural for them?  People can rationalize most alien quirks with the "different culture" approach, and people can be ethnocentric about everything if they choose (ie, our way is the only way and everything else is stupid/ridiculous/barbaric).  I don't have a problem with Samara's breasts, mainly because I don't really notice them, and haven't really since the first time I saw her.  Unlike what some people would have you believe, you can be a young heterosexual male and not be turned on automatically by cleavage.  I swear, some people seem to think guys ji.zz in their pants at the sight of cleavage.

que?? 

It really isnt a big deal to me, just joking about it.  I thought this was a joke thread, my bad.  Breasts are serious!

[SirVincealot]

wizardryforever wrote...

some people seem to think guys ji.zz in their pants at the sight of cleavage.

It would depend on the cleavage and its proximity, I suppose. Mandy Morbid or Jessica Biel having a beer at my table . . .

[Destroy Raiden_]

She's a justicar not a stripper. A plunging neckline like that belongs in Kora's Den not on a Justicar. Inverse armor theory does not work Dante proved it.

[TheBoss1138]

I liked how she looked, sexy yet not over done. I had many thoughts running through my head you know...when talking...n stuff...ANYWAY, it fits her character and if she would of been a possible LI...I would pounced that in nothing flat :3

And people...seriously, dont forget this is a fantasy sci-fi adventure story, theres going to be realistic situations and elements and stuff that just simply scream SCI-FI! Lol....Oh and its a video game guys, dont forget that

[wizardryforever]

HTTP 404 wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...

Samara's cleavage doesnt look natural. it looks like a botched surgery

Might not look natural on a human, but this is a fictional alien race we're talking about here.  The asari are a Bioware creation, who are we to say what is and isn't natural for them?  People can rationalize most alien quirks with the "different culture" approach, and people can be ethnocentric about everything if they choose (ie, our way is the only way and everything else is stupid/ridiculous/barbaric).  I don't have a problem with Samara's breasts, mainly because I don't really notice them, and haven't really since the first time I saw her.  Unlike what some people would have you believe, you can be a young heterosexual male and not be turned on automatically by cleavage.  I swear, some people seem to think guys ji.zz in their pants at the sight of cleavage.

que?? 

It really isnt a big deal to me, just joking about it.  I thought this was a joke thread, my bad.  Breasts are serious!

Sorry, only the first two sentences were directed at you, the rest was a more general statement to everyone else.  Guess I should have made it a separate paragraph.

[Siansonea]

Elyvern wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

No, I haven't. My point is there is no way to isolate our frame of reference to any work of art, even if it's a piece of work that aims to create a maximum distance from our baseline pre-conceptions and social conditioning. To say that we cannot project our standards of modesty on the ME universe is to dismiss the perceptions of the target audience and the validity of their interpretation. Not that ME would be considered primarily a work of art in the first place.

I'm not saying we can't project our standards of modesty into the universe, no doubt many people in-universe feel the same way about Samara's outfit as the posters in this thread. My point is that the asari themselves do NOT share this view. Samara has no doubt been wearing some version of this outfit during her entire tenure as a Justicar, a career she began before humanity even arrived on the scene. The universe doesn't seem to be populated primarily by dual-gendered sapient mammals, the quarians being the only example outside of humanity that I can think of off the top of my head. Therefore, being overly concerned about covering their Lovely Asari Bumps doesn't seem realistic from an asari point of view. They ALL have breasts. Why would they feel a sense of modesty about them? Why would asari have a sense of modesty about ANY part of their bodies? A few decades ago, humans arrived and started gawking at asari boobs. I'm sure the asari just shrugged their shoulders and filed that little tidbit of info away, and went about their business. Why should they suddenly as a species change the way they dress because a bunch of lowly humans are weird about it?

Your argument would be valid if it was the Asari that created Mass Effect. But the sticking point is the game was created by humans for humans, and generally people inhabiting the western hemisphere of Earth at that. To discount the validity of our social preconceptions and the fact that the Asari are conceptualised by human beings like us, and chalking it down to the fact that they get a free "get out of jail" card solely from the fact that they are an alien race is not tenable. And in case it's not clear, I have not argued for or against Samara's taste in clothing if you're gunning for that cause.

Wow, you really don't get what I'm saying at all. I know I certainly don't understand what you're trying to say. I guess this is one of those "same planet, different worlds" situations. Good luck with your crusade against cleavage.

[Siansonea]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

She's a justicar not a stripper. A plunging neckline like that belongs in Kora's Den not on a Justicar. Inverse armor theory does not work Dante proved it.

Yeah, doesn't she know what humans think of exposed bewbies? Doesn't she know?!

All this rancor about Samara's outfit is simply ridiculous. Okay, some people think she looks like a stripper. Okay, BioWare made her look that way to inspire lust in the kindergamers. But so what? Get glad in the same pants you got mad in.

The fact that people act like every character in the game should conform to the player's ideas of what is proper and modest is just downright silly. They don't seem to get that there is a CHARACTER point of view. Yes, that's right, there is a point of view that exists OUTSIDE YOUR OWN. I know it's shocking, but it's true. Each individual has their own set of ideas, beliefs, likes and dislikes, and it is actually NOT incumbent upon them to conform to YOURS. 

[Destroy Raiden_]

Fighting in stripper wear is not a sound armor choice she's not the type of girl who takes risks unnecessarily I mean look at Mornith for instance she asks you to be bait instead of her going to the club and down right biotic ass kicking her she knows how to be careful her lack of cleavage cover leaves her heart wide open the concept drawing of samara before edit was great it ending just below her collar bone other then that it was the exact same.



BW does well with the girls on the ship they needed sex appeal Samara was the ticket for that sense they seem to emply in the game most Asara are strippers at some point in their lives they thought hey Samara can continue to dress like one! Mornith dresses more modest and she's the one who use sex appeal. Even Eternity's bar tender is modest it seems as they age they dress less striper so Samra being a warrior and having common sense would undoubtedly choose to at least cover up her heart zone. As one ages they dress accordingly its a natural thing it has nothing to do with forcing anyone to conform to anything thats like saying a over weight person needs to loose weight some ones says eat salads they aren't forcing that person to eat it that person looks at the option and it is correct eating a salad would help in their goal so they do it because it is the smart choice not that their friend forced them to conform to eating what skinnier people eat. Samara needs appropriate armor because its in her best interest not because of forced conformity.

[Iakus]

Siansonea II wrote...

Yeah, doesn't she know what humans think of exposed bewbies? Doesn't she know?!

"Aim for the chest!  She's got no armor there!"?

The fact that people act like every character in the game should conform to the player's ideas of what is proper and modest is just downright silly. They don't seem to get that there is a CHARACTER point of view. Yes, that's right, there is a point of view that exists OUTSIDE YOUR OWN. I know it's shocking, but it's true. Each individual has their own set of ideas, beliefs, likes and dislikes, and it is actually NOT incumbent upon them to conform to YOURS. 

And Samara's would be...death wish?  No wait, "I'm invincible!  I can fight in high heels and exposed flesh and still take on an army of mercs!" 

"Vacuum is for mortals"?

"Weather is a state of mind"?

"Don't worry about the Migrant Fleet.  I'm so  bad**** I even kill bacteria"

Modesty aside, going into combat without armor, or without properly donned armor, or even protective clothing, is just plain silly.  I'd have thought games had evolved beyond charging into battle against fire-breathing turtles while wearing coveralls and plumber's caps.

Edit:  This goes for many members of Shepard's crew, male and female.  But this is a thread particularly about Samara, so...

Modifié par iakus, 26 août 2010 - 07:47 .

[Destroy Raiden_]

its not forced conformity its a matter of common sense she's a warrior exposing her heart to combat is not sound principle. Samara is a smart woman she knows when to be careful like in the case with Mornith she could've gone in and biotic ass kicked her but she sent you as bait instead. This shows she knows how to be cautious and when the situation calls for violence she needs to use her brain to solve her issu not her breast. Mordin on the other hand uses sex appeal her personality suggest an outfit like samaras would be perfect for her to lure in victims.



Samara got her out fit because BW needed sex appeal all the girls even Miranda on the Normandy dress modest Smara needed to be that ticket so they edited her outfit and gave her uber plunging neck line the outfit she had before edit was exactly the same except the neckline stopped just below her collar bone this outfit was sound it covered her heart and vital organs and made sense for a warrior to wear what they gave us in the game was stripper wear not suitable for her in personality nor in combat situations. Its not forced conformity to be smart about what you wear in battle its a necessity to have combat withstanding clothing on.

[Destroy Raiden_]

Wow my computer is acting up it won't show my post!

[Laverty317]

bewbs!

[Jamin101]

so i didnt read the whole thread because it all seemed to be the same but one thing no one mentioned is her cleavage just looks like bad graphics to me. just two balls stuck onto a chest with clothes pasted onto the bowls, doesnt look like fabric but isnt armor either. whereas with miranda i find myself surpised to be thinking certain thoughts about a video game character. i dont care that she is flaunting the goods i care it makes me leave the universe and think about how it just looks off

[Daewan]

iakus wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Yeah, doesn't she know what humans think of exposed bewbies? Doesn't she know?!

"Aim for the chest!  She's got no armor there!"?

The fact that people act like every character in the game should conform to the player's ideas of what is proper and modest is just downright silly. They don't seem to get that there is a CHARACTER point of view. Yes, that's right, there is a point of view that exists OUTSIDE YOUR OWN. I know it's shocking, but it's true. Each individual has their own set of ideas, beliefs, likes and dislikes, and it is actually NOT incumbent upon them to conform to YOURS. 

And Samara's would be...death wish?  No wait, "I'm invincible!  I can fight in high heels and exposed flesh and still take on an army of mercs!" 

"Vacuum is for mortals"?

"Weather is a state of mind"?

"Don't worry about the Migrant Fleet.  I'm so  bad**** I even kill bacteria"

Modesty aside, going into combat without armor, or without properly donned armor, or even protective clothing, is just plain silly.  I'd have thought games had evolved beyond charging into battle against fire-breathing turtles while wearing coveralls and plumber's caps.

Edit:  This goes for many members of Shepard's crew, male and female.  But this is a thread particularly about Samara, so...

I'm pretty sure after the last 500 years, she's just wearing that armor to give herself more of a challenge.  Because, if you somehow missed what happened before you recruited her, she took on an army of mercs wearing high heels and cleavage.

Modesty means different things to different cultures.  Spartan women thought shirts were unnecessary and stupid.  Athenian women showed off at least one breast to prove their femininity.  Spartan men didn't wear armor; it only slowed them down.  Roman soldiers didn't wear backplates.  Armor didn't become a necessity of warfare until the Normans, and it dropped out of vogue the instant that sidearms became commonplace.

Modern soldiers only wear armor appropriate to the enemy they plan to fight; they don't walk around in full body armor at all times, neither do most police offiers.  They wear chest armor because that's where they are most likely to get shot, because the average criminal is a damned moron who has no skill whatsoever with a gun.  Most
officers are trained to shoot criminals in the extremities, where no one ever wears armor these days.

The reason that Humans cover their chest area is because for us, that's going to be a serious wound.  Since we know nothing about Asari physiology besides "They have boobies," we have no way of knowing whether there is a heart or another major organ there.

If I worked for BioWare, I would claim that exposing that area increases an Asari's ability to use her biotics, and that's why all the Matriarchs do it.

tl; dr: Bewbies are good.

[coinop25]

I think a lot of players were put off by what one could reasonably argue was gratuitous objectification of female bodies. You see the same thing with people shaking their heads at Miranda's butt shots.



The reason Samara comes under particular scrutiny, though, is that there are in-game explanations for why Jack and Miranda flaunt their bodies. Miranda makes it clear that her sexuality is essentially one more weapon in her genetically-engineered arsenal, and Jack's casual (even unhealthy) attitude toward sex is part of her background. As for Samara, though, everything about her character (and everything you're told about her by others) screams "warrior under a strict monastic code" except her outfit, given that cultural notions of monks generally imply restraint and self-denial.



I won't get into spoilers in this forum, but suffice to say, not only is it a bit random for Samara to flaunt her sexuality, but it's actually at odds with her self-image as someone whose sexuality needs to be repressed at all costs. (She had a sexy phase, and it didn't go well.) This challenges a sense of suspension of disbelief in players who catch this: Are we to take Samara's outfit as an intentional commentary on her character, or should we assume that the artists behind the game thought this would appeal to presumed audience of the game? It's hard to come up with a narratively consistent argument for her outfit – yes, asari have different notions of sexual appropriateness from humans, but come on, there are plenty of covered-up asari in the game, including one who's significantly more overtly sexual than Samara. This leaves us with the more obvious explanation – someone behind this character design is pandering to an audience that plenty of us don't want to belong to.



As someone who chimed into agree that another outfit for Samara would be nice to have, it's not because I am offended by breasts (I'm not), but because I don't appreciate what Samara's outfit implies about the designers expectations of me, and that's distracting when I'm trying to get into the story.

[Destroy Raiden_]

Yes but even the Asari strippers wear breast covering clothing beyond the consort everyone else shows little cleavage so it stands to reason that Asari while sexual being in nature don't go all tribal on you they have a stopping point. And if you look at the Matriarchs Benezia, Arian, Eternity girl, Contract Broker on Illium, ect all are wearing modest clothing that means it is most likely expected that once you at least get to the Matriarch age stage covering up ones body is the norm for them.



Even Eclips girls run around fully armored this shows they all have common sense when entering battle that they should cover up their vital areas Samara's outfit is designed for sex appeal only not for cultural identity. And whats up with the American modesty basher? You think our version of modesty is bad try Middle East. No one is saying go that extreme but they are saying more convincing armor for Samara.

[Iakus]

Daewan wrote...

I'm pretty sure after the last 500 years, she's just wearing that armor to give herself more of a challenge.  Because, if you somehow missed what happened before you recruited her, she took on an army of mercs wearing high heels and cleavage.

I did notice.  Thus the joke

Modesty means different things to different cultures.  Spartan women thought shirts were unnecessary and stupid.  Athenian women showed off at least one breast to prove their femininity.  Spartan men didn't wear armor; it only slowed them down.  Roman soldiers didn't wear backplates.  Armor didn't become a necessity of warfare until the Normans, and it dropped out of vogue the instant that sidearms became commonplace.

Debating modesty on an Internet thread is doomed to failure, so I'll limit that to the occasional snarky comment about camera angles.

As to armor in history: Hoplite I for one would not enjoy wearing a 50lb breastplate into combat.  But then, I wouldn't want to wear a leather speedo into combat either

Use or disuse of armor  is an economic factor as much as it is a practical one.  Cost/benefit analysis.  You can bet an elite, highly trained (not to mention wealthy) soldier is gonna get better protection.

Modern soldiers only wear armor appropriate to the enemy they plan to fight; they don't walk around in full body armor at all times, neither do most police offiers.  They wear chest armor because that's where they are most likely to get shot, because the average criminal is a damned moron who has no skill whatsoever with a gun.  Most
officers are trained to shoot criminals in the extremities, where no one ever wears armor these days.

Not being trained in any sort of firearm, i won't debate this except to say I had always been under the assumption that one was trained to aim "In the center of mass"  ie the chest or torso to guarantee the best chance of hitting something

The reason that Humans cover their chest area is because for us, that's going to be a serious wound.  Since we know nothing about Asari physiology besides "They have boobies," we have no way of knowing whether there is a heart or another major organ there.

That's actually the best arguement I've heard yet.  Usually it's more along the lines of "So what?  She's hot!"   This is actually quite refreshing

In response, I'll simply say that given asari do have a humanoid (albiet universally female) appearance, added to the fact that all asari commandos and mercs we see have armor that fully covers their torsos, I'm still going to have to go with the idea that there is some kind of vital organ in the mid to upper chest region.  Subject to change if a proper codex entry is made.

If I worked for BioWare, I would claim that exposing that area increases an Asari's ability to use her biotics, and that's why all the Matriarchs do it.

And if Bioware said something like that I'd accept that, though at this point I'd still think it was fan service.

tl; dr: Bewbies are good.

Under the proper circumstances, yes.  LI scene:  good.  Gunfight, not so much

[Siansonea]

The entire argument is predicated on the assumption that less armor=inadequate protection, or that Samara doesn't have adequate protection because of the appearance of her armor. Samara (and Jack for that matter) are biotic powerhouses, it stands to reason that their biotic barrier abilities (which they demonstrate to great effect during the Suicide Mission) are such that armor is largely redundant or even a hindrance. If you've got a biotic barrier that is STRONGER than armor, why do you need armor? Eclipse mercenaries are more conventional in their combat, only using their biotics to supplement their combat abilities. Samara and Jack's combat abilities ARE their biotics. How many well-armored, well-armed Eclipse mercs have died at Samara's hands? And let's ask the YMIR mechs on Purgatory how much of an advantage their armor was when facing almost-naked Jack.



And people STOP saying that Samara is wearing this outfit 'to be sexy'. Let's not forget that until recently, Samara confined her activities exclusively to asari space. I'm sure it never crossed her mind that human males might assign significance to her costume that is absent among the asari. We don't know for certain what her cleavage means to other asari, it might be a symbolic vulnerability of the Justicar (the head and heart being the most vulnerable targets, are the only ones exposed) or it may be that the biotic barrier is actually MORE effective if it is against bare skin, thus having those two areas exposed conceivably could be a form of bolstering her barrier's effectiveness. I'm not saying that this IS the case, only that it COULD be. But I can say with certainty that she's not dressed that way to appeal sexually to the males of another species' who have only recently become part of the galactic community. Do you think turians and salarians stare at her boobs? I doubt it. Their females probably don't even have breasts, Samara's rack would be meaningless to them.



On another note, I've often thought biotic barriers are the answer to the quarian's situation. If they could be outfitted with biotic barrier generators that don't depend on the individuals nervous system (quarians don't seem particularly adept with biotics), they might be able to dispense with their hardsuits. A fine-tuned low-power biotic barrier could block pathogens every bit as well as a physical barrier such as a hardsuit.

[adriano_c]

Daewan wrote...

Spartan men didn't wear armor; it only slowed them down.

They certainly did. Chest plates, woven leather skirts, etc.

[adriano_c]

Siansonea II wrote...

...

Fan supposition aside, let's be for real. It isn't likely that there's even some story-based reasoning for her "revealing" outfit, and it's simply the product of designing something eye-catching.

[Blk_Mage_Ctype]

Thank you, Siansonea II for your logical and unbiased input, but unfortunately, these boards appear to be dominated by prudes and over-sexed goons who cannot listen to reason and share an illogical hatred for Samara's cleavage.

Here's what I'm seeing...

oversexdprude777: "hurr she needz armor & bewbiez r bad!11"

Me & you: "Uh, yeah... She's got biotic barriers and no, breasts aren't bad."

oversexdprude778: "hurr she needz armor & bewbiez r bad!11"

Me & you: "Didn't you read the last post? We've already covered this..."

oversexdprude779: "hurr she needz armor & bewbiez r bad!11"

Modifié par Blk_Mage_Ctype, 26 août 2010 - 09:47 .

[Kronner]

Armor is for the weak.

Samara has a biotic barrier, who cares about combat suit. I think she looks just fine.

[MotoSkunkX]

I hate it because she's a tease.



The best rack on any Asari in the galaxy, who also happens to be the only Asari who won't sleep with Kirk-er I mean Shepard. Yeah. Or in my case, Kirk Shepard.