48 réponses à ce sujet

[Pacifien]

I'm still unclear by what measure they scale the damage back if the amount of damage against a defense is greater than the defense the enemy has. Going with Christina's example here, the bonus from the ammo power meant that ammo power should have dealt 250 damage to armor. But the enemy only had 100 armor. So that 250 obliterates the armor, but 150 of it wasn't used.

Apparently, instead of that 150 going to waste, some of the damage is applied to health even though the ammo power was against armor. Where did the division of 1.25 come from? Is that how all damage is scaled back?

For instance, I have 200 damage against 200 shields and 400 health now. My ammo power provides a 20%. Damages versus shields is 240. This wipes out the 200 shields the enemy had, but leaves 40 leftover. Is that divided by 1.25 as well? That leaves me with now 32 damage against health.

So I guess my question is: is the division always 1.25?

[Simbacca]

{deleted: double post}

Modifié par Simbacca, 25 août 2010 - 07:34 .

[Simbacca]

Pacifien wrote...

...Where did the division of 1.25 come from?...

It came from the fictional ammo power's 25% bonus damage to armor.  In that example, the base damage the weapon deals is 200.  Since it would be hitting armor first, and her fictional ammo power does +25% damage to armor, the weapon damage became 1.25x what it previously was, so 250.  The target only had 100 in armor, so that leaves 150.  Since this remaing 150 damage is now going to be applied to health instead of armor, so first we have to get that damage figure back to base 1.00x by dividing by 1.25.  That gives us 120.  The last step is to see if the ammo power has multiplier against organic health, and Christina's fictional ammo power does indeed at +50% damage.  So now the weapon damage becomes 1.50x what it previously was, so 180.

So, in her example, a gun that does 200 base damage a shot with her fictional +25% dmg to armor/+50% dmg to health ammo power active would do a total of 280 damage against an organic enemy that had 100 armor as it's only defense.

So...

Pacifien wrote...

So I guess my question is: is the division always 1.25?

Nope.

Modifié par Simbacca, 25 août 2010 - 07:32 .

[PsyrenY]

Pacifien wrote...

So I guess my question is: is the division always 1.25?

The division is whatever it needs to be to scale the damage back down to base values. New modifiers can then be applied to that number (e.g. bonus vs. health in the first example.)

[termokanden]

That's how I thought it worked already. Can't say I'm unhappy about that. It only makes sense that it would damage armor even after shooting down a barrier.

[Eric Fagnan]

Unfortunately, the information Christina posted is incorrect. Her explanation matched our original design, but we decided to go with a different design later in the project. I've posted some information in the gameplay data thread that should clear things up. I've also included the new information below.



"Because the ammo power does the damage call before the weapon does its regular damage, using an ammo power against the wrong resistance type can totally negate its damage. For example, if you use Armor Piercing Ammo or Incendiary Ammo against an enemy that has a single point of energy shields, your ammo power's damage will have no effect, even though your weapon's regular damage will take down the shields afterward. Ammo powers do not make 2 damage calls.



Additional effects like Disruptor Ammo's "stun robots" or "overheat weapons" only apply if the target no longer has resistances. So even if you are using Disruptor Ammo against energy shields, the shields must be completely off before the target can be stunned or overheated. "



Hope this didn't cause too much confusion. I'll be happy to answer any other questions if you post them here.

[Christina Norman]

Sorry for passing on incorrect information, thanks for the clarification Eric!

[Fiery Phoenix]

Yeah, Eric is definitely correct. I've noticed that unless shields and armor are completely disabled, the target isn't affected by certain abilities of ammo powers.

[PsyrenY]

Eh, I mostly play casters anyway

[khevan]

Hmm. That's what I thought based off the information in the gameplay mechanics thread that I saw earlier.



I'm glad to have this clarified, and it makes AP ammo for Infiltrators even less attractive. Still useable, certainly, but from a min/max perspective, it's less than ideal. There are other powers that would benefit the Infiltrator more than AP ammo.

[PsyrenY]

So let me see if I can clarify what is going on here:

1) The damage bonus on ammo powers is negated completely if used against the wrong defense, regardless of how weak that defense is. For example, against an enemy with both shields and armor (e.g. a YMIR Mech), removing its shields with AP ammo will cause none of the AP damage bonus for that shot to carry through to the Mech's armor, even if the Mech only had 1 point of shields remaining.

2) Defenses must be completely removed before secondary effects can be applied, e.g. Disruptor Ammo's overheat and Cryo Ammo's freeze. Combined with the first point, that means that damage to a shielded enemy will never apply secondary effects, even if the damage from that shot is strong enough to remove the last bit of their defenses and spill over to their "red health."

Are those two points correct under the clarification?

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 30 août 2010 - 05:40 .

[Eric Fagnan]

Both your points are correct.

[khevan]

Edit:  Nevermind, Eric answered before I did.   

Modifié par khevan, 30 août 2010 - 05:47 .

[Kronner]

What if it is used against the correct defense.

Example:

Consider Klixens - lots of health, little armor, if you can take out the armor in one shot (inferno rounds) and take out some of the health with the same shot too, do you get the inferno 1.6x bonus against health (and is it damage over time or immediate damage) in this very specific case?

[khevan]

Kronner wrote...

What if it is used against the correct defense.
Example:
Consider Klixens - lots of health, little armor, if you can take out the armor in one shot (inferno rounds) and take out some of the health with the same shot too, do you get the inferno 1.6x bonus against health (and is it damage over time or immediate damage) in this very specific case?

It sounds very much to me that ammo powers make their damage calls first, in all cases.  If it hits armor, it does damage based on its damage bonus against armor.  If it hits health, it does damage based on its damage bonus to health (which are the same, I think).

Actually, now that you mention it, there's a question here.

For example:  Inferno Ammo vs.  Armor/health

Inferno does +60% damage to both armor and health, so an enemy with 100 armor and 400 health, with a base weapon damage of 100, the damage against armor would be increased to 160.  Does the remaining 60 damage carry over to health (since health recieves a damage bonus of +60% as well), or is the damage reduced to 37.5 (60 / 1.6 = base weapon damage that carries over, reduced from the +60% damage bonus)?

[Kronner]

Yes, that is exactly what I am curious about. Also Inferno does damage over time to health, not direct damage (at least the description says so).

Modifié par Kronner, 30 août 2010 - 06:05 .

[khevan]

Kronner wrote...

Yes, that is exactly what I am curious about.

Yeah, I answered at first thinking that it was a case of "Ammo Power damage call comes before weapon damage, so it applies to the first thing it hits."  In this case, armor.  But since the ammo power has a bonus against health as well it wouldn't make sense for the ammo power to lose its bonus.

Maybe it works this way:  base damage of 100, the ammo power adds 60 damage.  60 damage is then applied to the armor, dropping it to 40.  Base weapon damage then takes over, removing the remaining 40 armor and doing 60 damage to health.  This would make more sense then adding the damage bonus to the base weapon damage.

It would explain situations like Shielded / Armored YMIR mechs, where disruptor would do damage to its shields, but whatever ammo damage is left over after the shields drop is wasted, and no extra damage to the armor is applied.

If it works this way, then the "extra" damage to health in this example is in fact simply weapon damage, and no special effects from the weapon transfer.  The damage would be instantaneous, not DoT, and there would be no fire panic CC effects, unless the ammo power damage hits health.

Modifié par khevan, 30 août 2010 - 06:11 .

[PsyrenY]

Eric ****nan wrote...

Both your points are correct.

Excellent, thank you.

EDIT: Wow, the filter did not like that one.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 30 août 2010 - 06:14 .

[khevan]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Eric ****nan wrote...

Both your points are correct.

Excellent, thank you.

EDIT: Wow, the filter did not like that one.

Yeah, Eric F. has an unfortunate last name for the Bioware forums.  I'd say it's amusing, but I don't want to insult him, because he's been quite helpful in explaining how the game works.

[OniGanon]

So what exactly is happening with Cryo Ammo and shotguns?

A shotgun with Cryo Ammo will almost certainly freeze an enemy on the same shot that strips their defense.

Do individual shotgun pellets have different travelling speeds or something?



Also, say Shepard has +Power Damage from an evolved passive or armor or something, and Jacob uses Squad Incendiary Ammo. Does the Incendiary Ammo on Shepard's gun benefit from that +Power Damage?

Modifié par OniGanon, 30 août 2010 - 07:47 .