26 réponses à ce sujet

[ryoldschool]

Reaper IFF ammo study

I wanted to try to quantify the effectiveness of Squad Cryo Ammo
vs AP ammo on Insanity. So I designed an experiment to look at the effect
on the Reaper IFF mission. I used three variables to expand
the effect when using various squad members. I picked Miranda,
Jack, Samara and Grunt because they work well on this mission.

Constants:
Shepard is soldier, Commando passive, Widow, Mattock, geth shotgun.
Shepard always uses Inferno ammo.
5 machine gun upgrades, 6 assult rifle upgrades, 4 sniper upgrades,
4 shotgun upgrades, 6 biotic upgrades.

Never gave positioning commands to squadmates, manually used their powers
( to prevent Grunt and Jack from using their ammo powers ).

Variable Low Value High Value
-------- ------------------------ ------------------
1 Miranda on machine gun Samara on Mattock
2 Grunt on Mattock Jack on Geth Shotgun
3 Squad Cryo Ammo Squad AP ammo

I played conservatively, so I never died, and measured the time
to go from the opening encounter with Husks to just before the
room with the core, skipping cut scenes and the doorlock time.

The average run time was 1061 seconds ( a little less than 18 minutes ).

Run Mate 1 Mate 2 Ammo Result
1 Miranda Grunt Cryo 1041
2 Samara Grunt Cryo 971
3 Miranda Jack Cryo 1078
4 Samara Jack Cryo 1032
5 Miranda Grunt AP 1089
6 Samara Grunt AP 1080
7 Miranda Jack AP 1135
8 Samara Jack AP 1067

additional run Samara and Grunt, with No Cryo  1119 seconds

The main effects are as follows:

Squad Cryo Ammo is better than Squad AP ammo by 60 seconds
Samara is better than Miranda by about 48 seconds
Grunt is better than Jack by about 30 seconds.

A rough comparison is to compare Run 2 ( best ) with Run 7 ( Worst )

Best - Worst = 971 - 1135 = 164 seconds

All effects added together give 60 + 48 + 30 = 138 seconds.

I was suprised that Miranda's 15% weapon passive would have made more
difference, but you could look at it as the Mattock guns are really
what make Samara and Grunt better.

You have to hand it to bioware because the game plays slightly differently
every time you play. I saw Jack and Grunt flank Scions so that the Scion's
back was a target, something I'd not seen in many hours of playing this
game. Anyway there is some variation in the playing times because it is never
the same way twice.

I am convinced that Squad cryo ammo is superior, at least on
this mission, but its not a huge effect.

Modifié par ryoldschool, 27 août 2010 - 12:17 .

[Tlazolteotl]

No Mordin? He's totally boss against husks.

[ryoldschool]

Never tried Mordin, but I'll give it a go. I tried Miranda with Pistol and its a lot worse than with Locus machine gun - must be rate of fire with ammo powers.

[numotsbane]

Cryo Ammo is beast. I just wish there was a way to give it to the other classes...

[ryoldschool]

Just tried Mordin + Samara with Squad Cryo, same conditions as before, 1003 seconds, second best time. So he is very good - helps against the Scions as well.



Its a pain to get squad cryo ( on soldier ) because you have to put 3 points in disruptor + 3 points in incendary before you can unlock cryo.

[Pacifien]

Yeah, one of the downsides to playing a Soldier I discovered was that I wasn't going to get Squad Cryo Ammo before Horizon, which is my main goal when playing an Infiltrator. Did fine without it, but watching the cryo ammo at work is one of my little joys.

[RGFrog]

Were you using the Locust or Tempest for Miri and Mordin?

I prefer the tempest on squadies as it they just lay down constant fire. But, the also stay out of cover a lot and use more med kits (if I choose to revive...)

What was the death rate of the squad members, if any, during the sections? Not complete death, but grayed out until you finish business and they act like nothing happened death.

[termokanden]

1. You say that you manually used powers to avoid having Grunt and Jack use their own ammo powers. Is this even possible? I thought they would ALWAYS use them even with auto power usage turned off.



2. You can't just play through it 8 times and conclude based on this that Squad Cryo is better or that Samara is better than Miranda. I can see you put a lot of effort into this, but I'm sorry to say that you'd have to have an absolutely huge amount of repetitions of this to conclude anything, under the exact same circumstances.



Who's to say it's not your own playing style causing this, or that the result is very different using another class than a soldier.



Even if you believe that these numbers give the definitive answer, your conclusion still should not be simply that "Squad cryo is better than squad AP" but that under those exact circumstances, with you playing, in that map, squad cryo is better.

[Kronner]

termokanden wrote...

1. You say that you manually used powers to avoid having Grunt and Jack use their own ammo powers. Is this even possible? I thought they would ALWAYS use them even with auto power usage turned off.

If you use Squad Ammo, they will not override it with their own ammo power (if you have patch 1.02, maybe 1.01 is ok too)


And of course Cryo is better on this mission, it instakills husks and since they have very little armor AP is overkill against them. Though I do not agree with Samara being universally better than Miranda etc. it comes down to your playstyle. With Miranda you do more damage, so if you are the one dealing the most damage (as it should be, especially since you were a Soldier) it should help you more than Samara with Mattock, also 18 minutes is way too long for this mission, so if you were actually stuck behind your squad, letting them do most of the killing, they Samara should be better of course.

Modifié par Kronner, 26 août 2010 - 07:45 .

[termokanden]

What if you play on the xbox?

I realize this is not so relevant to the discussion, now I'm just curious since I play on the xbox.

In any case, it's interesting to test this, although I do not agree that it actually proves anything. I have started a new soldier playthrough, this time I will be using Squad Cryo for the first time to see for myself if it's as good as people claim.

Modifié par termokanden, 26 août 2010 - 07:46 .

[Kronner]

termokanden wrote...

What if you play on the xbox?

No idea if xbox got the patch too..but for PC version it works with v1.02 (100% sure) and maybe even v1.01 (not sure about this one though)

Modifié par Kronner, 26 août 2010 - 07:46 .

[OniGanon]

The reason Mordin is beastly against Husks is because his max Cryo Blast is the shortest cooldown aoe Husk instakiller for squadmates.

And yeah, Cryo Ammo being great vs Husks shouldn't surprise anyone.

Modifié par OniGanon, 26 août 2010 - 07:52 .

[ryoldschool]

What termokanden said about my conclusion being true for my playstyle is correct.  I tried to limit my conclusion to this mission.
(1) I am playing on Xbox and recently I've seen Grunt turn on squad incendary by himself when I have auto power turned on.  Maybe it does not always happen, but I did not want to mess up things.
(2) I originally thought AP was going to be better since there is a ton of armor on this map - no shields or barriers.
(3) I did play slowly so no deaths, but I was usually in front of the squad doing most of the shooting - this is probably why the differences were smaller.  I moved a quickly as I felt safe to do.
(4) Used Locus on Miranda and Mordin - has an armor multiplier.  Maybe Tempest would be better.
(5) Few medigel used, usually none and when used its after you see Legion.  Run 7 used the most,its my worst run, maybe used three.
(6) Mordin - did not use cryo blast ( never used ), used Area incenerate.  I'll have to try that sometime.
(7) Samara has field reave and the mattock ( 6 upgrades ) and I think that is why she works better than Miranda on this map ( for me anyway ).  I always take Miranda on maps.
I read this forum all the time and I was interested in putting some data behind effects that folks were saying they saw.  This map is pretty unusual because its all armor and lots of husks so crowd control is really important.  Another thing about this map is the the husks are timed to appear so its hard to move really fast.  After the last two scions are gone I killed all the husks that appear ( slowly ) until your mates say its time to get the IFF.  You might be able to bypass some husks by moving past the spawn point, but I wanted to make every run face the same task.
I appreciate your comments, maybe I'll try Miranda with tempest.  I tried her with pistol in an earlier run and that is much worse.

[numotsbane]

I just wanted to doublecheck, you are playing on insanity correct? because cryo would be ridiculous against unarmoured husks...

[ryoldschool]

Yes Insanity, xbox360.

[Tlazolteotl]

Hmm ...

My usual Mordin spec is incineration blast, passive 3, neural shockwave ... so I'm actually slower with him than with full cryo blast. I just figured neural is more useful to me 'cos I use him a lot vs mercs. I'll have to try the cryo spec sometime, too.

My Samara spec is throw field, sapiens, area reave ... 'cos though I love pull field, I use Jack (adept + warp 3).

Although, with my Infiltrator+Mordin+Samara team, cryo ammo rarely actually helped.
It's a lot of 2 button combo = annihilate lots of husks (yes, the videos are on my playlist, see sig).

Incineration blast + Throw Field.
Double Incineration Blast.
Sometimes, I'll be cutesy and follow up incinerate with some strafe-cryo-shooting action.

'cos my Shep was usually using the shuriken + squad cryo, and just using cloak/widow vs. scions.

[ryoldschool]

I just did another run to test a couple of things. Again Insanity on Xbox360



(1) Samara + Grunt with No Cryo ammo ( everything else the same ) = 1119 seconds, compared to 971 with squad cryo ( about 15% better ). So cryo is much better than regular ammo. Also I ran out of ammo on the Mattock quite a few times.



(2) I tried Samara + Grunt with No Cryo but with Squad power usage = yes, and Grunt who had inferno ammo at this point turned it on by himself - almost right away. This is a good thing for him to do, but it would mess up the experiment. Unsure if this also happens on squad ammo types - I know they put a fix in for that.

[ryoldschool]

I forgot to mention on that non-cryo run I just did that I had to use 3 medigels and Grunt charged a bunch of times - I guess because we were getting swamped with husks.

[ezrafetch]

Just some comments about the experiment:

Honestly, I think by testing just on the Reaper IFF, you're going to get a biased Squad Cryo result (I mean this in a most statistical sense).  You're just facing Husks and the occasional Scion.  Husks get owned by Cryo anything.  Their only "health" is their Armor because they die instantly when frozen.  I'm not saying that the experiment is fatally flawed from the start because Squad Cryo is a good power (or else it wouldn't be in the game!), but the parameters of the test sort of answer the question before it was asked.  I hardly think the Reaper IFF mission is an appropriate barometer of the whole game (though it's a main mission, its enemy types make it quite the aberration), so I suppose I'm saying that the test has little external validity, which I'm guessing was the aim of your experiment, to make a generalization overall.

Obviously it's a lot of work, but I'd almost like to see someone run the test by "mission enemy type" (i.e. Blue Suns, Eclipse, Blood Pack, Geth, Collector) to test the efficacy of the Squad Ammo types.  I think the frontrunner ammo type overall would be Warp, actually, except for Geth missions where Disruptor is obviously king.  Then again, you may not be able to generalize "best ammo type" past "mission enemy type."  There'd also have to be accountable choices for squadmates, which could introduce some error but for this kind of test...kinda just have to deal with it. 

On a last note, hopefully my comments on the experiment don't come across as rude or crass, I'm just pointing out some things which may reduce the power and validity of your findings, and if you want to strengthen your overall claim, then those are some things that can be looked at.  As you may have noticed by now, I've taken a few too many statistics/econometrics classes than what's for my own good...[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]  You've definitely got something good to work with, it's more of a fine-tuning matter more than anything else (or rather, an expansion of your initial test).  After all, I don't have much patience for these tests, and my theorycrafting probably only gets me so far.

I'm (admittedly) not the biggest fan of Squad Cryo but I definitely acknowledge its insane usefulness on the Reaper IFF mission (I found it subpar for most missions as a Widow Soldier).

Modifié par ezrafetch, 27 août 2010 - 02:53 .

[ryoldschool]

ezafetch - appreciate your comments.  I have experience with statistical design of experiments and your comments are correct about the scope of what these trials mean.  I would read on this forum where cyro ammo was so great vs husks and I never was so impressed with it when I tried it  This test shows that there is a real effect, and it can help you thru this level.

Another thing about this level is that your squad can stay alive without direction because only the scions are shooting at them - this might be why Samara is so good on this level - she has reave and the mattock and she is very agressive all on her own.

I've been using AP ammo on the soldier for quite some time and even with all the armor on this map I've just tested AP ammo vs Incendary ( on Shepard ) and the times are almost identical.

Insanity on Xbox 360, squad cryo for teammates, auto usage of powers.  Grunt did NOT turn on inferno ammo to override the squad cryo.

Run    Mate 1    Mate 2        Ammo for Shepard    Result
-------  ----------- -------------------------------------------------
1          Grunt          Miranda   AP                               1056
2           Samara    Miranda    AP                               1058
3           Grunt         Mordin      AP                                1052
4           Samara     Mordin    AP                                  964
5           Grunt          Miranda   Incendary                   1045
6           Samara     Miranda   Incendary                    1034
7           Grunt          Mordin    Incendary                     1121
8           Samara     Mordin     Incendary                    1001

Effects
AP ammo about 17 seconds faster -- not significant
Samara    about  54 seconds faster
Mordin about  13 seconds faster -- not significant

I say those two were insignificant because you could have a swing that big due to random changes in a run.

The two best times were with Samara and Mordin.

By the way, I ran these runs in random order to make up for me being tired during the later runs. 

As far as testing cryo ammo on other maps it would have to be after the collector ship trap because you can't get cryo until then ( unless you go crazy and omit getting AR and passive leveled out ).  Any suggestions on maybe a loyality mission to test it out on? 

[Tlazolteotl]

Actually, I've been trying out a new soldier build.

Sitting on adrenaline rush 3, nothing in passive, and getting cryo 4 as soon as possible.

It's not bad ... a bit underpowered during some early recruitment missions, but to be expected on a build like that.

Optimally, however ... I'm thinking respec'ing for squad cryo immediately after horizon would be a nice compromise, but the whole point of the build thus far is to have squad cryo for horizon.

[ezrafetch]

True, you can't really get Squad Cryo really before the Collector Ship (or Horizon), but it could be useful for NG+ players...or those weird ME2 players who do all their N7 missions first and thus need to spend the last half of the game recruiting 2/3 of the team and doing loyalty missions, wherein it would be helpful then.

Off the top of my head:
Geth: Tali/Legion loyalty missions
Eclipse: Samara recruitment, Kasumi loyalty, Thane recruitment
Blue Suns: Zaeed loyalty, part of Grunt recruitment, Jack recruitment, part of Garrus recruitment, most N7 missions
Blood Pack: Mordin recruitment, Mordin loyalty, part of Garrus recruitment

Modifié par ezrafetch, 28 août 2010 - 12:27 .

[Mallissin]

Grunt and Zaeed should be the most powerful combo for the Reaper IFF mission, especially if you have Zaeed loyal for the grenade.

The incinerate/inferno grenade + concussion blast is a pretty powerful combo against husks. The latter being good for crowd control as well.

Couple the combo with two sets of assault rifles (three counting yourself as soldier), and you should have quite a lot of fire power.

Probably the best test to see if cryo is that significant.

Modifié par Mallissin, 28 août 2010 - 12:42 .

[ryoldschool]

Malissin - I tried Samara + Grunt on Mattock and they were my best time in the first set of runs, so yeah, I think my next playthrough I'll try for squad cryo as soon as possible, aka Tlazolteotl, and take soldiers with me.

[numotsbane]

if you use squaddies with the incisor then I would expect a fairly radical impovement, I'm not sure whether its worth testing that though, I understand these are really time consuming. If you have that DLC though I'd be interested to see the results of a zaeed/ Garrus or Garrus/ Thane run.