98 réponses à ce sujet

[KainrycKarr]

I think this concept gets lost on a lot of people...T.I.M., to me, quite obviously has own agenda of pursuing and gathering more power to himself, and uses Cerberus to play on people's racism/nationalism, whatever you wanna call it. Because, to be honest, many of the people in Cerberus that you meet are quite normal, and certainly not evil.

Pel is just a mercenary. which isn't evil, just without morality.

Kai Leng is the closest to evil imo, next to T.I.M. Openly hateful towars other races. borderline.

Paul Grayson appeared to simply easily manipulated while having personal fears of humanity's place. And in the end he turns against T.I.M. due to his own morals. not evil.

Both Miranda and Jacob are certainly pro-human, but don't show any anti-alien tendencies, nor do any of the crew.
But T.I.M., just based on his own mannerisms, and the way he speaks to you during the end-game mission, is quite clearly a man in pursuit of power.

It's quite possible T.I.M. is another victim of the old saying "power corrupts".

And the idea of Cerberus(an organization dedicated to the preservation and defense of humanity) is completely ethical, even logical, if you think about it.

So, for those of you who hate Cerberus, what is it you really hate? Cerberus, or T.I.M.?

Personally, I'm okay with Cerberus, but it could certainly use a regime change.

[In Exile]

The alliance needs something like Cerberus. I think Miranda is right when she talked about the asari commandos and the salarian STG. We need a covert ops team that can handle the dirty work, we need a coordinated political and economic force looking to advance human interests first, and we need to remember that there is a line of biology we cannot cross with the other species (partially save the asari, except their reproduction just means more asari and no us, which is a very creepy thing when you think about it).

The problem is that Cerberus just has an insane and mad scientist way of going about this. Plus the eugenics.

[MajesticJazz]

I would say people hate Cerberus because they are told to hate Cerberus. It all dates back to ME1 where we had a string of UNC missions that involved Cerberus doing terrible things. Then there is the Acension novel that only adds to the Cerberus being evil theme.



So really, people hate Cerberus just because it is Cerberus. It is the same way how a Democrat or a Republic would dislike the other canidate running for the opposite party. They may not fully understand that canidate's platform....other than they are running as part of a party that the voter isn't affiliated with.



Biased judgement if you ask me.



Me, personally, I'm pro Cerberus.

[KainrycKarr]

You're saying they hate Cerberus because they see Cerberus doing terrible things...



Well....duh.



If I see someone kicking a puppy, I'm probably going to hate them.

[AntiChri5]

MajesticJazz wrote...

I would say people hate Cerberus because they are told to hate Cerberus. It all dates back to ME1 where we had a string of UNC missions that involved Cerberus doing terrible things. Then there is the Acension novel that only adds to the Cerberus being evil theme.

So really, people hate Cerberus just because it is Cerberus. It is the same way how a Democrat or a Republic would dislike the other canidate running for the opposite party. They may not fully understand that canidate's platform....other than they are running as part of a party that the voter isn't affiliated with.

Biased judgement if you ask me.

Me, personally, I'm pro Cerberus.

Do we really need to list their crimes again?

Humanity certainly does need an organisation to champion their cause, one with actual oversight.

Their first act can be wiping out Cerberus and TIM before that nutjob and his merry mob of manipulated morons start a war that gets us wiped out.

Modifié par AntiChri5, 26 août 2010 - 06:51 .

[Skyblade012]

Cerberus is really nothing without TIM. He is their organizer, their motivator, their backer. He's a control freak who likes to micromanage the whole organization, we've heard that from EDI.



With him, Cerberus is morally bankrupt, as they follow his beck and call almost as though he's a messiah (ha, that just put the Brotherhood of Nod and Kane into my head. I bet Kane and TIM would get along great). And without him, the organization would fall apart.

[MisterDyslexo]

TIM's a control freak with a lust for power. Whatever his old motives are they're long gone now. I honestly hope you can shoot that guy, because no amount of paragon points are going to persuade him to change his ways

[Forst1999]

I agree with Skyblade, TIM is Cerberus. The whole organzation depends on him, he supervises every project. A "regime change" isn't possible. His motivations are the motivations of Cerberus.
@ Majestic Jazz
People hate Cerberus because Cerberus does horrible things, not because they are told to do. It's not like rivalry between political parties. We don't want to discuss every single deed of Cerberus here, but this isn't about differing political views or just "fandom" of a specific organization. It is about being ethically offended by experiments that disregard human dignity.
@ In Exile
I always thought that the comparsion between the STG/Asari Commandos and Cerberus is rather clumsy. Sure, we learn that the STG has done it's acts that many consider unethical (see the Genophage 2.0). But at least this organizations are backed by goverments. That doesn't make it necessarily right, but you have to admit that this is a better legitimation than the private plans of a big-business-sponsored single man and his lackeys.

Sure, we've met a row of Cerberus members that aren't bad at all. Most of them handpicked for a mission that involves working with aliens and a Spectre who (might) oppose Cerberus general course. But i would rather say that this individuals have shown poor judgement by joining Cerberus, than say that they are the "true cerberus", that what it could be without TIM. They don't change what the organization stands for.

Modifié par Forst1999, 26 août 2010 - 08:46 .

[Cheese Elemental]

I don't trust either of them. Cerberus is too human-supremacist, and once TIM is disposed of, hopefully the Alliance can reform them into the human equivalent of the STG organisation rather than a supremacist group. After all, they've proven that they're more than capable of terrific advances in technology, but they're too unethical in their current state.

[KainrycKarr]

Forst1999 wrote...



I agree with Skyblade, TIM is Cerberus. The whole organzation depends on him, he supervises every project. A "regime change" isn't possible. His motivations are the motivations of Cerberus.

@ Majestic Jazz

People hate Cerberus because Cerberus does horrible things, not because they are told to do. It's not like rivalry between political parties. We don't want to discuss every single deed of Cerberus here, but this isn't about differing political views or just "fandom" of a specific organization. It is about being ethically offended by experiments that disregard human dignity.

@ In Exile

I always thought that the comparsion between the STG/Asari Commandos and Cerberus is rather clumsy. Sure, we learn that the STG has done it's acts that many consider unethical (see the Genophage 2.0). But at least this organizations are backed by goverments. That doesn't make it necessarily right, but you have to admit that this is a better legitimation than the private plans of a big-business-sponsored single man and his lackeys.



Sure, we've met a row of Cerberus members that aren't bad at all. Most of them handpicked for a mission that involves working with aliens and a Spectre who (might) oppose Cerberus general course. But i would rather say that this individuals have shown poor judgement by joining Cerberus, than say that they are the "true cerberus", that what it could be without TIM. They don't change what the organization stands for.

Ah, but that's the thing. Cerberus is a human preservationist group. That isn't unethical.



There is a major difference between protecting one's race, and hating another.



It is essentially the difference between the ****'s and the NAAA. To me, Cerberus as whole represents more of an NAAA ideal(preserving a specific race), whereas TIM appears to be using that a manipulative device into getting people to buy into his more hitler-esque ideals/experiments.

[AntiChri5]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...

I agree with Skyblade, TIM is Cerberus. The whole organzation depends on him, he supervises every project. A "regime change" isn't possible. His motivations are the motivations of Cerberus.
@ Majestic Jazz
People hate Cerberus because Cerberus does horrible things, not because they are told to do. It's not like rivalry between political parties. We don't want to discuss every single deed of Cerberus here, but this isn't about differing political views or just "fandom" of a specific organization. It is about being ethically offended by experiments that disregard human dignity.
@ In Exile
I always thought that the comparsion between the STG/Asari Commandos and Cerberus is rather clumsy. Sure, we learn that the STG has done it's acts that many consider unethical (see the Genophage 2.0). But at least this organizations are backed by goverments. That doesn't make it necessarily right, but you have to admit that this is a better legitimation than the private plans of a big-business-sponsored single man and his lackeys.

Sure, we've met a row of Cerberus members that aren't bad at all. Most of them handpicked for a mission that involves working with aliens and a Spectre who (might) oppose Cerberus general course. But i would rather say that this individuals have shown poor judgement by joining Cerberus, than say that they are the "true cerberus", that what it could be without TIM. They don't change what the organization stands for.

Ah, but that's the thing. Cerberus is a human preservationist group. That isn't unethical.

There is a major difference between protecting one's race, and hating another.

It is essentially the difference between the ****'s and the NAAA. To me, Cerberus as whole represents more of an NAAA ideal(preserving a specific race), whereas TIM appears to be using that a manipulative device into getting people to buy into his more hitler-esque ideals/experiments.

In other words, its just the bull**** he spins to justify what he does to his recruits, his backers and even himself.

[KainrycKarr]

AntiChri5 wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...

I agree with Skyblade, TIM is Cerberus. The whole organzation depends on him, he supervises every project. A "regime change" isn't possible. His motivations are the motivations of Cerberus.
@ Majestic Jazz
People hate Cerberus because Cerberus does horrible things, not because they are told to do. It's not like rivalry between political parties. We don't want to discuss every single deed of Cerberus here, but this isn't about differing political views or just "fandom" of a specific organization. It is about being ethically offended by experiments that disregard human dignity.
@ In Exile
I always thought that the comparsion between the STG/Asari Commandos and Cerberus is rather clumsy. Sure, we learn that the STG has done it's acts that many consider unethical (see the Genophage 2.0). But at least this organizations are backed by goverments. That doesn't make it necessarily right, but you have to admit that this is a better legitimation than the private plans of a big-business-sponsored single man and his lackeys.

Sure, we've met a row of Cerberus members that aren't bad at all. Most of them handpicked for a mission that involves working with aliens and a Spectre who (might) oppose Cerberus general course. But i would rather say that this individuals have shown poor judgement by joining Cerberus, than say that they are the "true cerberus", that what it could be without TIM. They don't change what the organization stands for.

Ah, but that's the thing. Cerberus is a human preservationist group. That isn't unethical.

There is a major difference between protecting one's race, and hating another.

It is essentially the difference between the ****'s and the NAAA. To me, Cerberus as whole represents more of an NAAA ideal(preserving a specific race), whereas TIM appears to be using that a manipulative device into getting people to buy into his more hitler-esque ideals/experiments.

In other words, its just the bull**** he spins to justify what he does to his recruits, his backers and even himself.

Precisely. IMO, it would be interesting for Shepard to put himself at the head of Cerberus, potentially bringing it back into the alliance fold in the process.

That does 3 things - removes an uncontrolled terrorist organization, gives the Alliance a real legitimate answer to asari commandos, the STG, and whatever the turian's have, and gives Shepard a legit fighting unit.

[Lord Coake]

Both.  I want top kneecap TIM and leave him aboard the Idenna.  In that vein, I want to kill Cerberus with fire.  Hopefully there's an option to to just that in ME3.

"I don't care who you are or what you say, I am not working with terrorists."

That we're forced to play lapdog to TIM and his band of sociopathic, murdering terrorists with a Doctor Mengele complex almost made me refuse to buy ME2, but I decided to give it a shot, only to find the whole dammed thing barely tolerable.  My Shep was a loyal Alliance Marine, and is now a loyal Citadel Spectre.  Where the hell was the option to put Miranda on ice, the traitor Jacob under restraint, and go back to the Citadel?  Where's the chance to keep the Collector base, but hand it over to the Citadel?

Instead, we get GRIMDARK and GRIMEDGEY.  Because apparently, the only way to really Get **** Done is to be completely amoral and traitorous about it.

If we have to keep playing nice with Cerberus and it's ilk in ME3, I'm saying screw it and watching the cinematics on Youtube, since I certainly won't be buying the game.

Modifié par Lord Coake, 26 août 2010 - 09:30 .

[Lord Coake]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Humanity certainly does need an organisation to champion their cause, one with actual oversight..

It's called the Systems Alliance Marine Corps.

Modifié par Lord Coake, 26 août 2010 - 09:33 .

[Forst1999]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...

I agree with Skyblade, TIM is Cerberus. The whole organzation depends on him, he supervises every project. A "regime change" isn't possible. His motivations are the motivations of Cerberus.
@ Majestic Jazz
People hate Cerberus because Cerberus does horrible things, not because they are told to do. It's not like rivalry between political parties. We don't want to discuss every single deed of Cerberus here, but this isn't about differing political views or just "fandom" of a specific organization. It is about being ethically offended by experiments that disregard human dignity.
@ In Exile
I always thought that the comparsion between the STG/Asari Commandos and Cerberus is rather clumsy. Sure, we learn that the STG has done it's acts that many consider unethical (see the Genophage 2.0). But at least this organizations are backed by goverments. That doesn't make it necessarily right, but you have to admit that this is a better legitimation than the private plans of a big-business-sponsored single man and his lackeys.

Sure, we've met a row of Cerberus members that aren't bad at all. Most of them handpicked for a mission that involves working with aliens and a Spectre who (might) oppose Cerberus general course. But i would rather say that this individuals have shown poor judgement by joining Cerberus, than say that they are the "true cerberus", that what it could be without TIM. They don't change what the organization stands for.

Ah, but that's the thing. Cerberus is a human preservationist group. That isn't unethical.

There is a major difference between protecting one's race, and hating another.

It is essentially the difference between the ****'s and the NAAA. To me, Cerberus as whole represents more of an NAAA ideal(preserving a specific race), whereas TIM appears to be using that a manipulative device into getting people to buy into his more hitler-esque ideals/experiments.

I disagree with the characterization as a preservationist group. There might be a real threat now with the Reapers, but Cerberus was founded before this threat was known. The menace that aliens represent was vastly overblown, no one could claim that the aliens Cerberus opposed before this made a preservation group necessary (except people who are stick in the past, see Terra Firma and others who can't forget about the First contact war in an era of reconciliation).
Cerberus is a collection of xenophobics and supremacists, at least in very big parts. The self-depiciton as defender of humanity is propaganda. It's goal always was to put humanity above the other races. To some Cerberus' actions might seem justified against the danger the Reaper represent, but one should not forget that they always acted like this, even without a threat that might require their course. Pure and simple, the goal of Cerberus was always human dominance under the mantle of self-defense.

[KainrycKarr]

Forst1999 wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...

I agree with Skyblade, TIM is Cerberus. The whole organzation depends on him, he supervises every project. A "regime change" isn't possible. His motivations are the motivations of Cerberus.
@ Majestic Jazz
People hate Cerberus because Cerberus does horrible things, not because they are told to do. It's not like rivalry between political parties. We don't want to discuss every single deed of Cerberus here, but this isn't about differing political views or just "fandom" of a specific organization. It is about being ethically offended by experiments that disregard human dignity.
@ In Exile
I always thought that the comparsion between the STG/Asari Commandos and Cerberus is rather clumsy. Sure, we learn that the STG has done it's acts that many consider unethical (see the Genophage 2.0). But at least this organizations are backed by goverments. That doesn't make it necessarily right, but you have to admit that this is a better legitimation than the private plans of a big-business-sponsored single man and his lackeys.

Sure, we've met a row of Cerberus members that aren't bad at all. Most of them handpicked for a mission that involves working with aliens and a Spectre who (might) oppose Cerberus general course. But i would rather say that this individuals have shown poor judgement by joining Cerberus, than say that they are the "true cerberus", that what it could be without TIM. They don't change what the organization stands for.

Ah, but that's the thing. Cerberus is a human preservationist group. That isn't unethical.

There is a major difference between protecting one's race, and hating another.

It is essentially the difference between the ****'s and the NAAA. To me, Cerberus as whole represents more of an NAAA ideal(preserving a specific race), whereas TIM appears to be using that a manipulative device into getting people to buy into his more hitler-esque ideals/experiments.

I disagree with the characterization as a preservationist group. There might be a real threat now with the Reapers, but Cerberus was founded before this threat was known. The menace that aliens represent was vastly overblown, no one could claim that the aliens Cerberus opposed before this made a preservation group necessary (except people who are stick in the past, see Terra Firma and others who can't forget about the First contact war in an era of reconciliation).
Cerberus is a collection of xenophobics and supremacists, at least in very big parts. The self-depiciton as defender of humanity is propaganda. It's goal always was to put humanity above the other races. To some Cerberus' actions might seem justified against the danger the Reaper represent, but one should not forget that they always acted like this, even without a threat that might require their course. Pure and simple, the goal of Cerberus was always human dominance under the mantle of self-defense.

That's kind of the idea. It's propaganda that T.I.M. uses to get people to believe in his B.S., much as Hitler used propaganda and false or over-blown information to influence people to his side.

Very, very few people are that violently hateful towards anyone by nature. However, many, MANY people can be easily influenced by a few fake photos and false reports.

i'd wager the majority of Cerberus joined under false pretenses.

Are there bad people in Cerberus? Quite obviously, but nothing a little cleaning-house couldn't cure.

What I'm saying is rather than completely obliterate and dismantle a useful and effective asset, simply place a new administration, and re-apply the organization.

Modifié par KainrycKarr, 26 août 2010 - 09:41 .

[KainrycKarr]

Lord Coake wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Humanity certainly does need an organisation to champion their cause, one with actual oversight..

It's called the Systems Alliance Marine Corps.

Except the alliance did nothing about the missing colonies. nothing.

Regardless of racism, regardless of cerberus, of aliens, of whatever, there is NO justification for that.

If americans, or practically any other nationality, started being killed or abducted in act-of-god numbers in a foreign zone of influence, you can bet they would definately do SOMETHING, if not a full-scale invasion.

The alliance's lack of action, of even so much as simple acknowledgement, was completely unacceptable, at the very least incompetence, at the very worst utter abandonment of a HUGE population of the very race they exist to serve and protect.

[Lord Coake]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Lord Coake wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Humanity certainly does need an organisation to champion their cause, one with actual oversight..

It's called the Systems Alliance Marine Corps.

Except the alliance did nothing about the missing colonies. nothing.

Regardless of racism, regardless of cerberus, of aliens, of whatever, there is NO justification for that.

If americans, or practically any other nationality, started being killed or abducted in act-of-god numbers in a foreign zone of influence, you can bet they would definately do SOMETHING, if not a full-scale invasion.

The alliance's lack of action, of even so much as simple acknowledgement, was completely unacceptable, at the very least incompetence, at the very worst utter abandonment of a HUGE population of the very race they exist to serve and protect.

You'd be right...if those colonists weren't completely ignoring warnings posted by the Alliance, going into unsecured territory where the Alliance has little, if any military presence and setting up shop justbecause they can.

"We came out here to get away from the Alliance, nothing good ever comes from working with them!"

Remember that jackass mechanic from Horizon?  Those colonists willingly left the Alliance to strike out on their own.  They were no longer under Alliance authority or protection, and attempts made by the Alliance to reinforce and support those colonies are entirely an act charity on the Alliance's part.  They were in the Terminus Systems and the colonists dammed well knew it.  The Alliance did not have the legal authority to send in fleet units since doing so had a large chance of kicking off a war with every regional power in the area.  They wanted to be free of the Alliance, but still wanted all the perks.

If American citizens said "Screw this, we're going off to live in unpopulated regions of the Congo" and started getting their **** ruined by bandits and warlords, the US could and would do...nothing.  No matter how two-faced and hypocritical said colonits started getting, no matter how loud Faux News screamed and how many protestors blocked traffic, no action could or would be taken out of risk for starting a war with half the continent.

They want protection from the Alliance?  Then stay in Alliance/Citadel space, morons.

Modifié par Lord Coake, 26 août 2010 - 09:51 .

[Netzach]

Well, at least in Horizon there was a Alliance outpost and still, they didn't do anything (right) to protect humans.

Alliance failed where Cerberus succeeded

They want protection from the Alliance?  Then stay in Alliance/Citadel space, morons.

Don't Worry, we have cerberus to protect them.

Also, do you remember what the next target was? It was Earth, Alliance would know that if they were at least investigating it but no, why should we care? they were in terminus system, screw them.

Modifié par kanuvis, 26 août 2010 - 09:52 .

[KainrycKarr]

Lord Coake wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Lord Coake wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Humanity certainly does need an organisation to champion their cause, one with actual oversight..

It's called the Systems Alliance Marine Corps.

Except the alliance did nothing about the missing colonies. nothing.

Regardless of racism, regardless of cerberus, of aliens, of whatever, there is NO justification for that.

If americans, or practically any other nationality, started being killed or abducted in act-of-god numbers in a foreign zone of influence, you can bet they would definately do SOMETHING, if not a full-scale invasion.

The alliance's lack of action, of even so much as simple acknowledgement, was completely unacceptable, at the very least incompetence, at the very worst utter abandonment of a HUGE population of the very race they exist to serve and protect.

You'd be right...if those colonists weren't completely ignoring warnings posted by the Alliance, going into unsecured territory where the Alliance has little, [/i]if any[/i] military presence and setting up shop justbecause they can.

Remember that jackass mechanic from Horizon?  Those colonists willingly left the Alliance to strike out on their own.  They were no longer under Alliance authority or protection, and attempts made by the Alliance to reinforce and support those colonies are entirely an act charity on the Alliance's part.  They were in the Terminus Systems and the colonists dammed well knew it.  The Alliance did not have the legal authority to send in fleet units since doing so had a large chance of kicking off a war with every regional power in the area.

If American citizens said "Screw this, we're going off to live in unpopulated regions of the Congo" and started getting their **** ruined by bandits and warlords, the Us could do...nothing.  No matter how two-faced and hypocritical said colonits started getting.

They want protection from the Alliance?  Then stay in Alliance/Citadel space, morons.

That congo bit is untrue, the U.S. would send search parties under the guidance of the local government. They've done that sort of thing before.

Legal authority? The alliance is part of the council races. The Terminus systems are NOT. that makes legality irrelevant.

Government's just dont work like that. They can't. If a government just utterly ignored the deaths/disappearances of thousands of people, the public outcry would cause riots.

sorry, but that doesn't fly with me.

[Lord Coake]

kanuvis wrote...

Well, at least in Horizon there was a Alliance outpost and still, they didn't do anything (right) to protect humans.

Alliance failed where Cerberus succeeded

They want protection from the Alliance?  Then stay in Alliance/Citadel space, morons.

Don't Worry, we have cerberus to protect them.

Cerberus succeded?  Last time I played through Horizon, it came out that the only reason the colony was even in danger was because Timmy intionally drew the Collectors there.

Oh, and intentionally destroying the repuatation of one of the few people who could have lit a fire under the Council's or Alliance's ass.  Real nice job there, apologist.  Tell me another one.

[Lord Coake]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Lord Coake wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Lord Coake wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Humanity certainly does need an organisation to champion their cause, one with actual oversight..

It's called the Systems Alliance Marine Corps.

Except the alliance did nothing about the missing colonies. nothing.

Regardless of racism, regardless of cerberus, of aliens, of whatever, there is NO justification for that.

If americans, or practically any other nationality, started being killed or abducted in act-of-god numbers in a foreign zone of influence, you can bet they would definately do SOMETHING, if not a full-scale invasion.

The alliance's lack of action, of even so much as simple acknowledgement, was completely unacceptable, at the very least incompetence, at the very worst utter abandonment of a HUGE population of the very race they exist to serve and protect.

You'd be right...if those colonists weren't completely ignoring warnings posted by the Alliance, going into unsecured territory where the Alliance has little, [/i]if any[/i] military presence and setting up shop justbecause they can.

Remember that jackass mechanic from Horizon?  Those colonists willingly left the Alliance to strike out on their own.  They were no longer under Alliance authority or protection, and attempts made by the Alliance to reinforce and support those colonies are entirely an act charity on the Alliance's part.  They were in the Terminus Systems and the colonists dammed well knew it.  The Alliance did not have the legal authority to send in fleet units since doing so had a large chance of kicking off a war with every regional power in the area.

If American citizens said "Screw this, we're going off to live in unpopulated regions of the Congo" and started getting their **** ruined by bandits and warlords, the Us could do...nothing.  No matter how two-faced and hypocritical said colonits started getting.

They want protection from the Alliance?  Then stay in Alliance/Citadel space, morons.

That congo bit is untrue, the U.S. would send search parties under the guidance of the local government. They've done that sort of thing before.

Legal authority? The alliance is part of the council races. The Terminus systems are NOT. that makes legality irrelevant.

Government's just dont work like that. They can't. If a government just utterly ignored the deaths/disappearances of thousands of people, the public outcry would cause riots.

sorry, but that doesn't fly with me.

"Congo" was a random, generally low populated region of the Earth.  Our age of colonization is long over.  And yes, Governments DO work like that.  They have to.  The Terminus Systems aren't a pack of pirated bases and merc componies, they're Star Nations in their own right, that refuse to bow to the Citadel.  They're Soverign States with things like armies and navies that must, in all cases, be treated with repsect demanded by any national power.

If doesn't matter if it doesn't fly with you.  International law is like that.  Gunboat diplomacy doesn't work.

[Netzach]

Last time i played Horizon was a target of the collectors, not matter what, why wouldn't we take advantage of that? Is obvious we weren't ready to face the enemy directly so we needed another tactic



But you evade the real thing in there, or maybe you didn't read it because of my edit. The alliance doesn't even investigate the abduction, Anderson sended Ashley because no one inside would ever do anything for that people, our people.

[Forst1999]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...

I agree with Skyblade, TIM is Cerberus. The whole organzation depends on him, he supervises every project. A "regime change" isn't possible. His motivations are the motivations of Cerberus.
@ Majestic Jazz
People hate Cerberus because Cerberus does horrible things, not because they are told to do. It's not like rivalry between political parties. We don't want to discuss every single deed of Cerberus here, but this isn't about differing political views or just "fandom" of a specific organization. It is about being ethically offended by experiments that disregard human dignity.
@ In Exile
I always thought that the comparsion between the STG/Asari Commandos and Cerberus is rather clumsy. Sure, we learn that the STG has done it's acts that many consider unethical (see the Genophage 2.0). But at least this organizations are backed by goverments. That doesn't make it necessarily right, but you have to admit that this is a better legitimation than the private plans of a big-business-sponsored single man and his lackeys.

Sure, we've met a row of Cerberus members that aren't bad at all. Most of them handpicked for a mission that involves working with aliens and a Spectre who (might) oppose Cerberus general course. But i would rather say that this individuals have shown poor judgement by joining Cerberus, than say that they are the "true cerberus", that what it could be without TIM. They don't change what the organization stands for.

Ah, but that's the thing. Cerberus is a human preservationist group. That isn't unethical.

There is a major difference between protecting one's race, and hating another.

It is essentially the difference between the ****'s and the NAAA. To me, Cerberus as whole represents more of an NAAA ideal(preserving a specific race), whereas TIM appears to be using that a manipulative device into getting people to buy into his more hitler-esque ideals/experiments.

I disagree with the characterization as a preservationist group. There might be a real threat now with the Reapers, but Cerberus was founded before this threat was known. The menace that aliens represent was vastly overblown, no one could claim that the aliens Cerberus opposed before this made a preservation group necessary (except people who are stick in the past, see Terra Firma and others who can't forget about the First contact war in an era of reconciliation).
Cerberus is a collection of xenophobics and supremacists, at least in very big parts. The self-depiciton as defender of humanity is propaganda. It's goal always was to put humanity above the other races. To some Cerberus' actions might seem justified against the danger the Reaper represent, but one should not forget that they always acted like this, even without a threat that might require their course. Pure and simple, the goal of Cerberus was always human dominance under the mantle of self-defense.

That's kind of the idea. It's propaganda that T.I.M. uses to believe in his B.S., much as Hitler used propaganda and false or over-blown information to influence people to his side.

Very, very few people are that violently hateful towards anyone by nature. However, many, MANY people can be easily influenced by a few fake photos and false reports.

i'd wager the majority of Cerberus joined under false pretenses.

Are there bad people in Cerberus? Quite obviously, but nothing a little cleaning-house couldn't cure.

What I'm saying is rather than completely obliterate and dismantle a useful and effective asset, simply place a new administration, and re-apply the organization.

The question is how useful this rest of Cerberus would be.  As far as we know Cerberus has currently 3 cells, together they have 150 agents (according to EDI). Even if the majority would be acceptable and only the "bad apples" were sorted out, propably every project would be crippled.
Cerberus reached it's biggest successes with experiments that shouldn't be pursued by the Alliance. It's ruthless scientists wouldn't be of much use if they were employed by the Alliance (assuming the alliance wouldn't just continue Cerberus' course of action). Cerberus massive foundings wouldn't go on if the organization was reintegrated into the Alliance. It's political branche, which propaply makes a good part of it, would be of no use at all.
Aside from the things one can oppose in Cerberus, there wouldn't be much left. I see no point in reforming Cerberus, it has to be destroyed. Single individuals might be possible to reintegrate, certain ressources and results might be worth taking over, but the organization itself is of no use to the alliance when it is redeemed. And if it's not, then there is no point in reintegrating it at all.
I'd like to note, that the alliance already made it's own attempts to establish a real organization similar to the STG with the corsairs. Like Jacob said, it didn't work out so well, but Cerberus isn't the only way. The Alliance has to establish it's own effecitve Black-Ops group, not to try to form something of the ashes of Cerberus.

[Lord Coake]

kanuvis wrote...

Last time i played Horizon was a target of the collectors, not matter what, why wouldn't we take advantage of that? Is obvious we weren't ready to face the enemy directly so we needed another tactic

But you evade the real thing in there, or maybe you didn't read it because of my edit. The alliance doesn't even investigate the abduction, Anderson sended Ashley because no one inside would ever do anything for that people, our people.

Anderson is the Alliance Rep to the Council in most playthroughs. And even if he's not, Anderson is not the top flag officer of the Navy and not a leader of the Alliance as a whole.  He's either a Representative or an Advisor, so the only way he gets to order Alliance Military assets into play is -wait for it- If the Alliance is taking official action despite the risk of open warfare.

"They should have done more!" you'll say.  Sadly, With duties all over the place, the cubord is pretty empty for the Navy (and without the Navy, Marines go nowhere, fast.)  And why is the Navy alreay busy?  Because they're already patrolling colonies in Alliance Space.

The colonists stuck their heads in a blender and got screwed.  Build a Darwin Award Monument, and make an object lesson out of them.

Modifié par Lord Coake, 26 août 2010 - 10:05 .