98 réponses à ce sujet

[KainrycKarr]

Lord Coake wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Lord Coake wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Lord Coake wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Humanity certainly does need an organisation to champion their cause, one with actual oversight..

It's called the Systems Alliance Marine Corps.

Except the alliance did nothing about the missing colonies. nothing.

Regardless of racism, regardless of cerberus, of aliens, of whatever, there is NO justification for that.

If americans, or practically any other nationality, started being killed or abducted in act-of-god numbers in a foreign zone of influence, you can bet they would definately do SOMETHING, if not a full-scale invasion.

The alliance's lack of action, of even so much as simple acknowledgement, was completely unacceptable, at the very least incompetence, at the very worst utter abandonment of a HUGE population of the very race they exist to serve and protect.

You'd be right...if those colonists weren't completely ignoring warnings posted by the Alliance, going into unsecured territory where the Alliance has little, [/i]if any[/i] military presence and setting up shop justbecause they can.

Remember that jackass mechanic from Horizon?  Those colonists willingly left the Alliance to strike out on their own.  They were no longer under Alliance authority or protection, and attempts made by the Alliance to reinforce and support those colonies are entirely an act charity on the Alliance's part.  They were in the Terminus Systems and the colonists dammed well knew it.  The Alliance did not have the legal authority to send in fleet units since doing so had a large chance of kicking off a war with every regional power in the area.

If American citizens said "Screw this, we're going off to live in unpopulated regions of the Congo" and started getting their **** ruined by bandits and warlords, the Us could do...nothing.  No matter how two-faced and hypocritical said colonits started getting.

They want protection from the Alliance?  Then stay in Alliance/Citadel space, morons.

That congo bit is untrue, the U.S. would send search parties under the guidance of the local government. They've done that sort of thing before.

Legal authority? The alliance is part of the council races. The Terminus systems are NOT. that makes legality irrelevant.

Government's just dont work like that. They can't. If a government just utterly ignored the deaths/disappearances of thousands of people, the public outcry would cause riots.

sorry, but that doesn't fly with me.

"Congo" was a random, generally low populated region of the Earth.  Our age of colonization is long over.  And yes, Governments DO work like that.  They have to.  The Terminus Systems aren't a pack of pirated bases and merc componies, they're Star Nations in their own right, that refuse to bow to the Citadel.  They're Soverign States with things like armies and navies that must, in all cases, be treated with repsect demanded by any national power.

If doesn't matter if it doesn't fly with you.  International law is like that.  Gunboat diplomacy doesn't work.

Really? Because all we've seen are mercs. The only actual sovereign state that we can see is the Batarians.

and you keep talking about law. Law is irrelevant. Massive numbers of your nation are dead or missing, in foreign soil.

In most countries that warants an outright declaration of war, more than enough reason to invade.
Of course, in this case they'd be attacking the wrong people, as it's the collectors doing it, but they would be right by at least reacting.

If it was a bunch of legitimate, organized governments, they wouldn't be allowed to colonize the place!

This isn't a couple of pilots crashing in China. This is entire colonies of people going missing and dying. That kinda stuff causes riots.

People don't care about law when they're being abducted and killed.

The very least the alliance could do was acknowledge that something was going.

There is no way this can be spin that alleviates the Alliance of guilt.

[Julie the bogan]

I agreed with Miranda about humanity needing a group like Cerberus, the other races have their special interest groups. But I don’t agree with their current mandate or TIM, id like to overthrow TIM and put Miranda in charge I liked her after the SM, maybe with civilian oversight not military with their dealings in full view of public opinion and on public forums.
 
But I wonder if it’s too late for Cerberus to redeem itself, also we don’t know what the STG or any of the other race’s interest groups have done, I mean the STG adapted the genophage which was pretty bad.
 
While my Shepard is an Alliance solider through and through she wouldn’t destroy Cerberus, she’d try and fix it.

[KainrycKarr]

Julie Shepard wrote...

I agreed with Miranda about humanity needing a group like Cerberus, the other races have their special interest groups. But I don’t agree with their current mandate or TIM, id like to overthrow TIM and put Miranda in charge I liked her after the SM, maybe with civilian oversight not military with their dealings in full view of public opinion and on public forums.
 
But I wonder if it’s too late for Cerberus to redeem itself, also we don’t know what the STG or any of the other race’s interest groups have done, I mean the STG adapted the genophage which was pretty bad.
 
While my Shepard is an Alliance solider through and through she wouldn’t destroy Cerberus, she’d try and fix it.

Exactly.

[Lord Coake]

KainrycKarr wrote...
There is no way this can be spin that alleviates the Alliance of guilt.

The Alliance isn't guilty of anything.  The momnent those people left Alliance Space, the moment they decided to set up on their own, completely unsupported by any outside power, they stopped being Alliance Citizens.  Moron Horizon Mechanic flat out mentiones that they were warned, but chalked it all up to "Alliance Propoganda."  They got themselves into the mess, and Cerberus is playing on emotional chords to make people get indignant.

The Law is all that matters in this issue.  The colonists decided to set up a life outside it's protections, and got bit in the ass for doing so.  Not the Alliance's problem anymore.

You may hate it.  It may claw at your heart.  It doesn't matter.  The Alliance is busy defending it's own holdings, it's own colonies, and it's own territory.  Those wildcat colonists that left the Alliance space of their own free will, fully aware of the dangers?  Again, not the Alliances problem anymore.

Anderson lit a few fires and got some fleet units to investigate.  Nice of him.  Far beyond what the Alliance was required to do, or really should have done.

Modifié par Lord Coake, 26 août 2010 - 10:14 .

[Netzach]

Anderson can send whoever wants to a mission without the Alliance knowing it, specially if he is the councilor, he didn't say anything about the alliance knowing it if i remember well. But maybe i'm wrong.

I'm not saying they should have done more, i understand that the council space is in danger due to the effects of Nazara's plan but while Cerberus were investigating the abduction, and making a plan involving a hero, the Alliance was fighting against pirates (because the other species in council space are weak or because humanity is ruling the galaxy almost alone) but not investigating why there were humans disappearing in the terminus systems and when they started to do something it was too late.

Ok i'll take that, they are busy, they have something else to do, legal things. Ok. That's why humanity needs Cerberus, not bound to legal actions, not responding to the council, not causing war between council space and terminus systems.

Modifié par kanuvis, 26 août 2010 - 10:13 .

[Netzach]

The law said that Shepard should stay in the Citadel while the council prepared a plan to stop Saren. If Anderson and Shepard didn't break the law now humanity would be nothing but husks.

Modifié par kanuvis, 26 août 2010 - 10:16 .

[Lord Coake]

kanuvis wrote...

Anderson can send whoever wants to a mission without the Alliance knowing it, specially if he is the councilor, he didn't say anything about the alliance knowing it if i remember well. But maybe i'm wrong.

I'm not saying they should have done more, i understand that the council space is in danger due to the effects of Nazara's plan but while Cerberus were investigating the abduction, and making a plan involving a hero, the Alliance was fighting against pirates (because the other species in council space are weak or because humanity is ruling the galaxy almost alone) but not investigating why there were humans disappearing in the terminus systems and when they started to do something it was too late.

Ok i'll take that, they are busy, they have something else to do, legal things. Ok. That's why humanity needs Cerberus, not bound to legal actions, not responding to the council, not causing war between council space and terminus systems.

So you'll start a war that can cost millions, if not billions of lives, so you can your little feel-good blackwatch commandos go play Mission Impossible.  Nice.

As players, we know the Reapers are coming.  In-game, the evidence is so thin, the knowledge and theories so sketchy, that the Powers That Be can't make a move on it.

Want to get the Council in Action?  Give them the Collector Base.  Oh, wait.  CERBERUS IS OUR ONLY HOPE!!!!1111oneoneone.

[KainrycKarr]

Lord Coake wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...
There is no way this can be spin that alleviates the Alliance of guilt.

The Alliance isn't guilty of anything.  The momnent those people left Alliance Space, the moment they decided to set up on their own, completely unsupported by any outside power, they stopped being Alliance Citizens.  Moron Horizon Mechanic flat out mentiones that they were warned, but chalked it all up to "Alliance Propoganda."  They got themselves into the mess, and Cerberus is playing on emotional chords to make people get indignant.

The Law is all that matters in this issue.  The colonists decided to set up a life outside it's protections, and got bit in the ass for doing so.  Not the Alliance's problem anymore.

You may hate it.  It may claw at your heart.  It doesn't matter.  The Alliance is busy defending it's own holdings, it's own colonies, and it's own territory.  Those wildcat colonists that left the Alliance space of their own free will, fully aware of the dangers?  Again, not the Alliances problem anymore.

Anderson lit a few fires and got some fleet units to investigate.  Nice of him.  Far beyond what the Alliance was required to do, or really should have done.

So, what, the alliance sends Williams, finds out that the rumors about collectors are true and....still do nothing?

Is "the law" really worth risking the whole reaper-collector thing being true?

when you get right down to it, it's a risk vs reward scenario.

The problem is that it wasn't just some people here and there going missing; if it was, it'd be easy to chalk it up to various "terminus systems" dangers, but you can't just dismiss entire settlements going missing, then when you actually investigate it, and find out that what everyone has been warning you about, is in fact going on, you STILL do nothing.

The fact remains, that were it left to the alliance, the galaxy would pretty much be boned.

Personally I'd chalk it up to bad writing, because I have a hard time believing a government as upstart and aggressive as the alliance would just stick their heads in the sand when bad stuff starts happening, but it is what Bioware says it is.

[Lord Coake]

kanuvis wrote...

The law said that Shepard should stay in the Citadel while the council prepared a plan to stop Saren. If Anderson and Shepard didn't break the law now humanity would be nothing but husks.

Hindsight is 20/20.  At the time, were I an Alliance Marine guarding the Normandy, Anderson would still be in prison, and Shep would likely be either dead, or right alongside him.

And, if I remember correctly, Saren ended up coming to the Citadel anyway...with Soverign.  All the Normandy going to Illos did was actually delay Shep from being on site to nail Saren and get the gate open.  The Normandy may be all stealthy and high tech, but it still hits like a frigate.  Not much use in a stand up brawl like the fight against Soverign.

[KainrycKarr]

Lord Coake wrote...

kanuvis wrote...

Anderson can send whoever wants to a mission without the Alliance knowing it, specially if he is the councilor, he didn't say anything about the alliance knowing it if i remember well. But maybe i'm wrong.

I'm not saying they should have done more, i understand that the council space is in danger due to the effects of Nazara's plan but while Cerberus were investigating the abduction, and making a plan involving a hero, the Alliance was fighting against pirates (because the other species in council space are weak or because humanity is ruling the galaxy almost alone) but not investigating why there were humans disappearing in the terminus systems and when they started to do something it was too late.

Ok i'll take that, they are busy, they have something else to do, legal things. Ok. That's why humanity needs Cerberus, not bound to legal actions, not responding to the council, not causing war between council space and terminus systems.

So you'll start a war that can cost millions, if not billions of lives, so you can your little feel-good blackwatch commandos go play Mission Impossible.  Nice.

As players, we know the Reapers are coming.  In-game, the evidence is so thin, the knowledge and theories so sketchy, that the Powers That Be can't make a move on it.

Want to get the Council in Action?  Give them the Collector Base.  Oh, wait.  CERBERUS IS OUR ONLY HOPE!!!!1111oneoneone.

Oh please, the council wouldn't do a damn thing. The two games have proved it. The council never does anything, regardless of evidence. I would prefer not to hand it to TIM either, but let's not fool ourselves.

The council, human or alien, is a bunch of incompetent morons. TIM is a power-hungry villain, but to his credit his way won't end up in complete destruction of the galaxy.

Thin evidence? a giant, all-but-impervious juggernaut worship that matches zero geth designs or technologies, kicking down the front door of the citadel is thin evidence?

A high ranking alliance soldier witnissing an entire colony being attacked and kidnapped by a super-advanced alien race that isn't associated with either the Terminus System or the Council Races?

Oh yeah. Thin evidence.

[KainrycKarr]

Lord Coake wrote...

kanuvis wrote...

The law said that Shepard should stay in the Citadel while the council prepared a plan to stop Saren. If Anderson and Shepard didn't break the law now humanity would be nothing but husks.

Hindsight is 20/20.  At the time, were I an Alliance Marine guarding the Normandy, Anderson would still be in prison, and Shep would likely be either dead, or right alongside him.

And, if I remember correctly, Saren ended up coming to the Citadel anyway...with Soverign.  All the Normandy going to Illos did was actually delay Shep from being on site to nail Saren and get the gate open.  The Normandy may be all stealthy and high tech, but it still hits like a frigate.  Not much use in a stand up brawl like the fight against Soverign.

Because being jail, unarmed and unarmed, separated from his gear and his crew, Shepard would totally still be there to stop and kill Saren, amirite?

[Netzach]

By going to Illos they found the truth, and they could follow Saren into the conduit. If they were in the citadel they would have been caught in surprise like everyone else did and maybe the normandy would have been destroyed.

If i remember well that battle was won because Shepard could follow Saren while the normandy and the fifth fleet caught the geth and nazara by surprise.

You want to follow the law? Fine, join the C-Sec. We are specters, and humans, we do what is needed to be done, if it means to kill 1000 to save 50000 i'm fine with that. And speaking about that, specters and cerberus are just the same thing.

Modifié par kanuvis, 26 août 2010 - 10:28 .

[Lord Coake]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Lord Coake wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...
There is no way this can be spin that alleviates the Alliance of guilt.

The Alliance isn't guilty of anything.  The momnent those people left Alliance Space, the moment they decided to set up on their own, completely unsupported by any outside power, they stopped being Alliance Citizens.  Moron Horizon Mechanic flat out mentiones that they were warned, but chalked it all up to "Alliance Propoganda."  They got themselves into the mess, and Cerberus is playing on emotional chords to make people get indignant.

The Law is all that matters in this issue.  The colonists decided to set up a life outside it's protections, and got bit in the ass for doing so.  Not the Alliance's problem anymore.

You may hate it.  It may claw at your heart.  It doesn't matter.  The Alliance is busy defending it's own holdings, it's own colonies, and it's own territory.  Those wildcat colonists that left the Alliance space of their own free will, fully aware of the dangers?  Again, not the Alliances problem anymore.

Anderson lit a few fires and got some fleet units to investigate.  Nice of him.  Far beyond what the Alliance was required to do, or really should have done.

So, what, the alliance sends Williams, finds out that the rumors about collectors are true and....still do nothing?

Ashley being on planet was an act of chairity by the Alliance.  Someone decided that since the colonists are beitching so loud, the Alliance may as well attempt to get in position to actually profit from them.  Oh, and she still all but got spat on.  "Give us the perks, but leave us alone!"

Is "the law" really worth risking the whole reaper-collector thing being true?

Ingame, were I Alliance military officer?  No.  For all we know, Soverign was a one-shot deal or -as it's posited in game- a very advanced Geth Warship.  All the evidence as to otherwise comes from one inoperable VI and a now-dead Spectre.  Not enough to work off of.

when you get right down to it, it's a risk vs reward scenario.

Cost-benifit.  "Will actively posting fleet units and marine garrisons on thses colonies be worth the possibility of starting a secor-wide war when we're already commited elsewhere?"

Emotional reaponse:  Certainly.  Cold, hard numbers response (Ie: Military/Political): No, not in the slightest.

The problem is that it wasn't just some people here and there going missing; if it was, it'd be easy to chalk it up to various "terminus systems" dangers, but you can't just dismiss entire settlements going missing, then when you actually investigate it, and find out that what everyone has been warning you about, is in fact going on, you STILL do nothing.

Anderson got some cruisers in to do some looking.  What more do you want to happen on a pack of sketchy information (that actively being occluded by a terrorist organization, to boot)?  Send in a battlegroupd headed by a pair of Dreadnoughts with full carrier support?  ONly if you feel like starting something big with the Terminus Systems.

The fact remains, that were it left to the alliance, the galaxy would pretty much be boned.

Pure storyline.  We're the Turians or Asari getting mauled, we'd see the..toothier side of their natures, I'm sure.

Personally I'd chalk it up to bad writing, because I have a hard time believing a government as upstart and aggressive as the alliance would just stick their heads in the sand when bad stuff starts happening, but it is what Bioware says it is.

Agreed, though they're not sticking their heads in the sand as much as behaving as an at least halfway competant star nation thats a hell of a lot smaller than their contemporairies.

[KainrycKarr]

Sovereign was CLEARLY not Geth design. that "for-all-we-know" stuff is total b.s.



Even assuming that they are justified in doing NOTHING up until Horizon, the problem still exists that now they have cold, hard, PROOF that the rumors that were being spilled to them were true. They even have one of their own people to testify for it!



And those toothier sides mean nothing. EVERYONE got their cans kicked at the citadel, Sovereign literally flew through them.



If Shepard had not done what he did, it would have ended at the Citadel and everyone would be knee-deep in reapers; if you recall, Sovereign couldn't even be damaged until Shepard defeated Saren's avatar.



Either way, what Shepard does ends up being completely justified, because even if the Alliance doesn't see the evidence, he does.



So, tell me, what are you supposed to do if you the option of working with terrorists or allowing the galaxy to be destroyed?



This argument is irrelevent anyway. Cerberus doesn't need to be dismantled. It needs to re-appropriated and given a new administration. That was my original point.

[Barquiel]

KainrycKarr wrote...

So, for those of you who hate Cerberus, what is it you really hate? Cerberus, or T.I.M.?

both

TIM - racist megalomaniac

Cerberus - Salarian STG and Asari commandos all answer to their respective governments. Cerberus answers to a single unelected individual who is accountable to no one. We can replace TIM, but the problem remains. Although we don't know much about them, I think the Corsairs (or a similar group) are the better answer. They are still controlled by the alliance navy (iirc...).

[KainrycKarr]

Barquiel wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

So, for those of you who hate Cerberus, what is it you really hate? Cerberus, or T.I.M.?

both

TIM - racist megalomaniac

Cerberus - Salarian STG and Asari commandos all answer to their respective governments. Cerberus answers to a single unelected individual who is accountable to no one. We can replace TIM, but the problem remains. Although we don't know much about them, I think the Corsairs (or a similar group) are the better answer. They are still controlled by the alliance navy (iirc...).

Ah, but Cerberus was originally part of the Alliance. My idea involves a regime change in order to bring them back into the fold.

Modifié par KainrycKarr, 26 août 2010 - 10:59 .

[Forst1999]

The Alliance and the Council definatly should have investigated the whole thing, seeing the whole Reaper threat. A ship and a spectre to the terminus systems don't automaticly result in a war. A fleet to defend the colonies on the other hand would have. The thing with Ilos was about sending a fleet too. That Shepard was denied to go even alone was more the idea of Udina and bad judgement of the council. An investigation of the missing colonists would certainly have been possible.

But how could the Alliance acted differently? Cerberus found out that the Collectors were behind this, a fact unknown to the Alliance. If the abductions were merely the work of slavers or Cerberus (like the Alliance thought), the provision of Ash/Kaidan and the defense Laser would have been a viable method of countering this (and pretty generous). With proper intel, the alliance might have reacted better. It was a mistake, OK.

But what were they to do after Horizon? They knew that the Collector's live behind the Omega-4-Portal, which they can't go through, and that they are defense-less against the seekers. They have no way to cross the portal, watching it with a fleet is no option. The Collector ship was immediatly investigated by Cerberus, before anyone could react. The derelict reaper was the only way to get the IFF (and evidence that the Reapers aren't Geth constructions,by the way), but it is gone. I don't see anything the Alliance could have done, after Cerberus had begun to follow this thing.

Cerberus' information gathering and reaction time is for sure superior to the Alliance's. To go back to the topic, does that mean the Alliance needs Cerberus? As i said, i don't think it is possible to repurpose Cerberus. Cerberus acted right on this occasion, but that only means that the Alliance has to improve it's intelligence service. Cerberus information network might be the one thing the Alliance should take over.

[PsyrenY]

In Exile wrote...

The alliance needs something like Cerberus. I think Miranda is right when she talked about the asari commandos and the salarian STG. We need a covert ops team that can handle the dirty work, we need a coordinated political and economic force looking to advance human interests first, and we need to remember that there is a line of biology we cannot cross with the other species (partially save the asari, except their reproduction just means more asari and no us, which is a very creepy thing when you think about it).
The problem is that Cerberus just has an insane and mad scientist way of going about this. Plus the eugenics.

I agree completely with this post. But they need oversight. Yeah yeah, governments are inefficient, blah blah blah. The STG and Commandoes found a way to make it work, so can we.

[Zulu_DFA]

Lord Coake wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Humanity certainly does need an organisation to champion their cause, one with actual oversight..

It's called the Systems Alliance Marine Corps.

LMAO!!! That's what the recruiting sergeant told ya, maggot? Now, all of you, listen up!!! Flush that sh*t outta your heads, and wake up for the life of glory!!! Make no mistake about that, it's MY glory I'm speakin' about!!! From now on, you're gonna to champion MY cause, 'cuz your little asses now belong to ME!!! And that's gonna be so for the rest of your otherwise worthless lives, 'cuz I'm gonna find you all some nice place to get killed!!! This is my job here!!! To use you up to death!!! And when that happens, I may even take pictures of you and send them to MY Mom!!! Lookin' at you, it'll be your best pictures ever!!! And you shall pray every f*ckin' night for that to happen, 'cuz gettin' in MY Mom's Album of K.I.A. is like gettin' to Heaven!!! 'Cuz I am GOD of this platoon!!!.. And I decide who gets to MY Mom's Album of K.I.A., and it so happens only the best of Marines get there!!! And you shall pray to ME and worship ME with every deepest thought of yours, that is if you have them!!! Your every heartbeat shall from now on be dedicated to ME!!! But don't you dare build a shrine of ME or somethin', 'cuz I despise idolatery and all other such petty stuff!!! MY goal is not a cult of personality, MY goal is that you operate to your specifications without malfunction!!! When you learn those, you won't believe organic matter is capable of them!!!.. And that's why I need you to believe, and I shall make you believe!!! In ME, MY COMMAND, AND MY MOM'S ALBUM OF K.I.A.!!!!!! Do I make MYSELF clear?!!.. I can't hear you!!!... I still can't hear you, ladies!!!... Obviously, you don't get that much of intel all at once yet!!! But I know a way to teach you!!! Now, hit the deck and give ME hundred!!!



@ KainrycKarr.
There's zero indication that TIM does what he does for his personal gain. Obviously, he does consider himself the most important person in the galaxy, but that's kind of, er... true, and he doesn't let this go to his head.

[Killjoy Cutter]

KainrycKarr wrote...

You're saying they hate Cerberus because they see Cerberus doing terrible things...

Well....duh.

If I see someone kicking a puppy, I'm probably going to hate them.

^ This.

[jbblue05]

Their is like 4 or 5 threads discussing Cerberus.

This is just going to turn into an anti vs. pro argument and people are going to use the same arguments they used in other threads

[In Exile]

Forst1999 wrote...
I always thought that the comparsion between the STG/Asari Commandos and Cerberus is rather clumsy. Sure, we learn that the STG has done it's acts that many consider unethical (see the Genophage 2.0). But at least this organizations are backed by goverments. That doesn't make it necessarily right, but you have to admit that this is a better legitimation than the private plans of a big-business-sponsored single man and his lackeys.

It's not entirely clear how much Cerbersus is involved in running the Alliance. They have wealthy industrialist backers, and the political system of the Alliance is at the end of the day just a space democracy of sorts. Cerberus was apparently involved in pushing for the building of the SR-1, so they have some influence over government policy.

Obviously the relationship is reversed (since the STG is a government organization, and Cerbersus is a private organization infiltrated in government) but I think in principle the idea of a black ops organization that can do things like the genophage is important.

Sure, we've met a row of Cerberus members that aren't bad at all. Most of them handpicked for a mission that involves working with aliens and a Spectre who (might) oppose Cerberus general course. But i would rather say that this individuals have shown poor judgement by joining Cerberus, than say that they are the "true cerberus", that what it could be without TIM. They don't change what the organization stands for.

That's different. I am not advocating for Cerberus as it stands; I think TIM crossed the moral event horizon a long time ago, and the eugenics aspect of Cerberus is intolerable. The STG, for example, do morally questionable things to other races for stability; TIM does morally questionable things to his own race for the sake of an ubermensch, and that's just wrong.

[In Exile]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Except the alliance did nothing about the missing colonies. nothing.

Regardless of racism, regardless of cerberus, of aliens, of whatever, there is NO justification for that.

If americans, or practically any other nationality, started being killed or abducted in act-of-god numbers in a foreign zone of influence, you can bet they would definately do SOMETHING, if not a full-scale invasion.

The alliance's lack of action, of even so much as simple acknowledgement, was completely unacceptable, at the very least incompetence, at the very worst utter abandonment of a HUGE population of the very race they exist to serve and protect.

If a group of Americans renounced American citizenship, moved to China, and started dissapearing, would be US move to defend them? That's a better comparison for the colonists. One thing that remains a little understated in this issue is that those fringe colonies in the terminus system weren't all officially Alliance (see Horizon).

ETA:

Also, went you think about it, talking about the Reapers is kind of lying someone going around saying Satan is amassing all of the armies from hell to start armagedon. If you've got one CIA dude going around saying how Satan is kidnapping former US citizens in some backwater, filing it under crazy is not exactly inappropriate.

The Alliance did send Ashley Williams despite failing miserably. Not to mention that at Freedom's Progress, Shepard only got evidence of the collector's because of Veetor. No Veetor, no colony. Not that I am the biggest fan of the Alliance, since they very clearly do not see the threat of the reapers and want to sweep it under the rug (see: Udina) but that does not justify Cerberus as-is. It justifies a change to the Alliance.

Modifié par In Exile, 26 août 2010 - 03:46 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Lord Coake wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...
There is no way this can be spin that alleviates the Alliance of guilt.

The Alliance isn't guilty of anything.  The momnent those people left Alliance Space, the moment they decided to set up on their own, completely unsupported by any outside power, they stopped being Alliance Citizens.  Moron Horizon Mechanic flat out mentiones that they were warned, but chalked it all up to "Alliance Propoganda."  They got themselves into the mess, and Cerberus is playing on emotional chords to make people get indignant.

The Law is all that matters in this issue.  The colonists decided to set up a life outside it's protections, and got bit in the ass for doing so.  Not the Alliance's problem anymore.

You may hate it.  It may claw at your heart.  It doesn't matter.  The Alliance is busy defending it's own holdings, it's own colonies, and it's own territory.  Those wildcat colonists that left the Alliance space of their own free will, fully aware of the dangers?  Again, not the Alliances problem anymore.

Anderson lit a few fires and got some fleet units to investigate.  Nice of him.  Far beyond what the Alliance was required to do, or really should have done.

So the Alliance and the Citadel Council don't both have a moral obligation, at some point, to at least do their due diligence on that matter? 

[jbblue05]

In Exile wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Except the alliance did nothing about the missing colonies. nothing.

Regardless of racism, regardless of cerberus, of aliens, of whatever, there is NO justification for that.

If americans, or practically any other nationality, started being killed or abducted in act-of-god numbers in a foreign zone of influence, you can bet they would definately do SOMETHING, if not a full-scale invasion.

The alliance's lack of action, of even so much as simple acknowledgement, was completely unacceptable, at the very least incompetence, at the very worst utter abandonment of a HUGE population of the very race they exist to serve and protect.

If a group of Americans renounced American citizenship, moved to China, and started dissapearing, would be US move to defend them? That's a better comparison for the colonists. One thing that remains a little understated in this issue is that those fringe colonies in the terminus system weren't all officially Alliance (see Horizon).

ETA:

Also, went you think about it, talking about the Reapers is kind of lying someone going around saying Satan is amassing all of the armies from hell to start armagedon. If you've got one CIA dude going around saying how Satan is kidnapping former US citizens in some backwater, filing it under crazy is not exactly inappropriate.

The Alliance did send Ashley Williams despite failing miserably. Not to mention that at Freedom's Progress, Shepard only got evidence of the collector's because of Veetor. No Veetor, no colony. Not that I am the biggest fan of the Alliance, since they very clearly do not see the threat of the reapers and want to sweep it under the rug (see: Udina) but that does not justify Cerberus as-is. It justifies a change to the Alliance.

The Alliance is a Council race and if they send their fleet in the Terminus it might be considered an act of war.no matter how badly the Alliance wants to investigate the missing colonies its too risky.

I'm sure the Alliance is concerned about the missing colonists becase colonists in Alliance space could be next if humans are be targeted

I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Alliance was funding Cerberus to help deal with the missing Colonists