98 réponses à ce sujet

[mosor]

These last few threads describe why humanity needs an organization like Cerberus. The alliance will only look out for humans in alliance space. An organization that looks out for all humans, regardless of political allegiance, is the only way these far flung pioneers will get any sort of protection. Cerberus rightly knows protecting all humanity, not just ones in a political border, should be the prime concern of every human.

[Fiery Phoenix]

The Alliance, no matter how powerful they may be, needs a shadow organization like Cerberus. They need someone who works undercover and does and what can't normally be done. I am fully supportive of the idea of a Cerberus-like organization working under complete Alliance supervision. The problem is that the real Cerberus is led by someone who is too busy thinking about himself. I realize that Timmy claims that he cares for what's best for humanity, and I realize that there is no direct evidence that suggests he's lying, but nevertheless, his methods are too strong to put up with. No matter how important Cerberus would be/have been to the Alliance, the fact that they are led by someone like Timmy is enough to take them out of the picture. At best, Cerberus are anti-heroes.

The asari commando's, the salarian STG's, etc. all have thier own "governments" supervising them. Cerberus is supervised by a single person who doesn't even have a name. Who knows what Timmy might have in mind? In fact, giving what he has done yet, what makes ANYONE think he does in fact have the "right idea"? He doesn't seem to care about anyone but himself. He keeps using people as bait in order to achieve his goals, while sitting on that chair and smoking his soul. How many times has he sent a Cerberus team on a mission and got them all killed just to recover a single item? How many times did he send Shepard on a mission and almost got her killed, only to tell her that it was a "calculated risk"?

The Alliance may need an organization like Cerberus, but they most certainly don't need someone with Tim's mentality. The Alliance is there to combat the likes of Tim, not support them. Shepard is the only person who can expose Tim's plans and go to the Alliance with everything she knows, at which point the Alliance wouldn't think twice before taking action.

Modifié par FieryPhoenix7, 26 août 2010 - 05:12 .

[Aedan_Cousland]

Cerberus as an organization is evil, but not everyone working for Cerberus is. If you wanted to draw a real world parallel you could use the N@zi Party during WW2. The N@zis as a whole were evil but not every member of the party was. Oskar Schindler for example, was a member of the party.


Edit: Jesus Christ Bioware, why is the word N A Z I filtered out by the profanity filter?

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 26 août 2010 - 05:12 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

Cerberus as an organization is evil, but not everyone working for Cerberus is. If you wanted to draw a real world parallel you could use the N@zi Party during WW2. The N@zis as a whole were evil but not every member of the party was. Oskar Schindler for example, was a member of the party.


Edit: Jesus Christ Bioware, why is the word N A Z I filtered out by the profanity filter?

Unfortunately, on internet discussion forums, that's almost become a necessity.

[brent2605]

I think most of you are looking at this from the wrong angle.Yes when the colonist left alliance space they left alliance protection but this isn't about protecting the colonies this is about the human race as a whole.Look at the facts you have ONLY human colonies disappearing adding up to hundreds of thousands of humans this suggests that there is an unknown threat targeting only humans and has the strength to cause such huge numbers to vanish.That is enough information to show whatever the threat is it is a threat not just to colonies but all of humanity.That should be more than enough justification to take military action.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

Cerberus as an organization is evil, but not everyone working for Cerberus is. If you wanted to draw a real world parallel you could use the N@zi Party during WW2. The N@zis as a whole were evil but not every member of the party was. Oskar Schindler for example, was a member of the party.


Edit: Jesus Christ Bioware, why is the word N A Z I filtered out by the profanity filter?

Unfortunately, on internet discussion forums, that's almost become a necessity.

I used to be post on Team Xbox and that was never an issue.

[Siansonea]

I'm anti-both. TIM and Cerberus are one and the same, as far as I'm concerned. I think Miranda and Jacob are just Cerberus stooges, unaware of the enormity of the organization's crimes against humanity and the galaxy in general.

[Sajuro]

KainrycKarr wrote...

You're saying they hate Cerberus because they see Cerberus doing terrible things...

Well....duh.

If I see someone kicking a puppy, I'm probably going to hate them.

Kicking that puppy was simply a study to see what effects kicking a puppy would have
Another Cerberus Success

[Sajuro]

mosor wrote...

These last few threads describe why humanity needs an organization like Cerberus. The alliance will only look out for humans in alliance space. An organization that looks out for all humans, regardless of political allegiance, is the only way these far flung pioneers will get any sort of protection. Cerberus rightly knows protecting all humanity, not just ones in a political border, should be the prime concern of every human.

Though the reason most humans go outside of Alliance space is so they won't have to deal with the people whose job it is to protect humans., and Cerberus seems to kill a lot of humans as well.

[In Exile]

jbblue05 wrote...
The Alliance is a Council race and if they send their fleet in the Terminus it might be considered an act of war.no matter how badly the Alliance wants to investigate the missing colonies its too risky.

This is a false dillema. In ME1, Udina wanted the Council to send in the fleet because Saren and the geth invaded Eden Prime.

You don't need the remnants of the 5th fleet + the citadel fleet to investigate missing colonists. The alliance does not seem to be pursuing this strongly, though.

Shepard found the collectors by fluking into them on one world. The collectors started operating two years ago. Cerberus suspected them. If the Alliance had absolutely no idea, they were clearly not doing their jobs. We learn from EDI Cerberus is quite small as an organization; if they found this out independently it's either a sign the Alliance is pathetic and incompetent or they weren't interested in looking.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Alliance was funding Cerberus to help deal with the missing Colonists

I would. Anderson acts like working with Cerberus is treason.

[Lord Coake]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Lord Coake wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...
There is no way this can be spin that alleviates the Alliance of guilt.

The Alliance isn't guilty of anything.  The momnent those people left Alliance Space, the moment they decided to set up on their own, completely unsupported by any outside power, they stopped being Alliance Citizens.  Moron Horizon Mechanic flat out mentiones that they were warned, but chalked it all up to "Alliance Propoganda."  They got themselves into the mess, and Cerberus is playing on emotional chords to make people get indignant.

The Law is all that matters in this issue.  The colonists decided to set up a life outside it's protections, and got bit in the ass for doing so.  Not the Alliance's problem anymore.

You may hate it.  It may claw at your heart.  It doesn't matter.  The Alliance is busy defending it's own holdings, it's own colonies, and it's own territory.  Those wildcat colonists that left the Alliance space of their own free will, fully aware of the dangers?  Again, not the Alliances problem anymore.

Anderson lit a few fires and got some fleet units to investigate.  Nice of him.  Far beyond what the Alliance was required to do, or really should have done.

So the Alliance and the Citadel Council don't both have a moral obligation, at some point, to at least do their due diligence on that matter? 

"Moral obligations" on an International scale start wars. Nothing ever happens in a vacuum. 

[Lord Coake]

In Exile wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...
The Alliance is a Council race and if they send their fleet in the Terminus it might be considered an act of war.no matter how badly the Alliance wants to investigate the missing colonies its too risky.

This is a false dillema. In ME1, Udina wanted the Council to send in the fleet because Saren and the geth invaded Eden Prime.

You don't need the remnants of the 5th fleet + the citadel fleet to investigate missing colonists. The alliance does not seem to be pursuing this strongly, though.

Shepard found the collectors by fluking into them on one world. The collectors started operating two years ago. Cerberus suspected them. If the Alliance had absolutely no idea, they were clearly not doing their jobs. We learn from EDI Cerberus is quite small as an organization; if they found this out independently it's either a sign the Alliance is pathetic and incompetent or they weren't interested in looking.

You know what would happen if the US decided to send a full carrier battlegroup to, say, Guam (a US commonwealth) with orders to go on high alert, scour the area for pirates and such, and open fire if they found any?

The entire South Pacific would explode.  It's by no means a false dilemma.  Other nations start getting more than a little nervous and twitchy when full sized fleet groups are within main battery range of their territory.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Alliance was funding Cerberus to help deal with the missing Colonists


I would. Anderson acts like working with Cerberus is treason.

Working with Cerberus is Treason.  Which is why it annoys the hell out of me that my Alliance loyal Shepard couldn't nail them to the wall once she reached the Citadel.

Modifié par Lord Coake, 26 août 2010 - 07:29 .

[jbblue05]

In Exile wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...
The Alliance is a Council race and if they send their fleet in the Terminus it might be considered an act of war.no matter how badly the Alliance wants to investigate the missing colonies its too risky.

This is a false dillema. In ME1, Udina wanted the Council to send in the fleet because Saren and the geth invaded Eden Prime.

You don't need the remnants of the 5th fleet + the citadel fleet to investigate missing colonists. The alliance does not seem to be pursuing this strongly, though.

Shepard found the collectors by fluking into them on one world. The collectors started operating two years ago. Cerberus suspected them. If the Alliance had absolutely no idea, they were clearly not doing their jobs. We learn from EDI Cerberus is quite small as an organization; if they found this out independently it's either a sign the Alliance is pathetic and incompetent or they weren't interested in looking.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Alliance was funding Cerberus to help deal with the missing Colonists

I would. Anderson acts like working with Cerberus is treason.

Anderson isn't as high ranking in the Alliance as you might think.

The Alliance knows its risky sending ships into the Terminus and Human Colonies are being abducted which means all human colonies are at risk even in Alliance space

The Alliance is funding Cerberus to get intel and stop whomever is abducitng these colonies.
The Alliance gets to keep its hands clean while getting answers

[Pacifien]

KainrycKarr wrote...
So, for those of you who hate Cerberus, what is it you really hate? Cerberus, or T.I.M.?

Personally, I'm okay with Cerberus, but it could certainly use a regime change.

I didn't like Cerberus before the Illusive Man was introduced. The Illusive Man actually made the organization more intriguing to me, but still not enough to get me to like them.

The Illusive Man makes his goals for Cerberus quite clear -- the advancement of the human race beyond any other civilization out there. Eh. Oh yeah, and he's a psychopath.

Anyway, for every good project they may be doing outside of Shepard's knowledge, there's a morally corrupt counterpart. That doesn't sit well with me. I don't do results at all costs for the most part. I'm not going to pretend it doesn't happen or that some of that research went into some of the resources at Shepard's disposal. But I'm also not going to assume it was the only way. There are many paths one can take in research. Take the faster more aggressive route offends me as a scientist.

Also don't buy into the fact that Shepard somehow owes Cerberus anything. Shepard was dead. Shepard didn't ask Cerberus to bring him back. However, seeing as they did, don't see what the point would be in Shepard crying foul and jumping off a bridge to put things back to the status quo. Still, Cerberus wanted to bring Shepard back exactly as he was. If the person he was before didn't care for Cerberus, big shock if that continues afterwards. That was the risk they took in bringing him back without a control chip.

Just rambling, I guess. The answer is simple. Hate Cerberus. Hate the Illusive Man. Love to hate him, though. Regime change wouldn't really change my opinion of Cerberus, I don't buy into their advancement of humanity at all costs mentality. I'm open to humanity evolving however they see fit, even if that doesn't put them at the top of the food chain.

[Inthatplace]

Lord Coake wrote...

Both.  I want top kneecap TIM and leave him aboard the Idenna.  In that vein, I want to kill Cerberus with fire.  Hopefully there's an option to to just that in ME3.

"I don't care who you are or what you say, I am not working with terrorists."

That we're forced to play lapdog to TIM and his band of sociopathic, murdering terrorists with a Doctor Mengele complex almost made me refuse to buy ME2, but I decided to give it a shot, only to find the whole dammed thing barely tolerable.  My Shep was a loyal Alliance Marine, and is now a loyal Citadel Spectre.  Where the hell was the option to put Miranda on ice, the traitor Jacob under restraint, and go back to the Citadel?  Where's the chance to keep the Collector base, but hand it over to the Citadel?

Instead, we get GRIMDARK and GRIMEDGEY.  Because apparently, the only way to really Get **** Done is to be completely amoral and traitorous about it.

If we have to keep playing nice with Cerberus and it's ilk in ME3, I'm saying screw it and watching the cinematics on Youtube, since I certainly won't be buying the game.

[Moiaussi]

Lord Coake wrote...

You know what would happen if the US decided to send a full carrier battlegroup to, say, Guam (a US commonwealth) with orders to go on high alert, scour the area for pirates and such, and open fire if they found any?

The entire South Pacific would explode.  It's by no means a false dilemma.  Other nations start getting more than a little nervous and twitchy when full sized fleet groups are within main battery range of their territory.

A battlegroup around Guam would be in range of China though, wouldn't it? And wouldn't a lot of the issue be because of that? The Terminus systems don't seem to have any organized anything (contrary to codex and ME1 implications). It is also noteworthy that the 'Terminus pirates' aren't mentioned as having had any Geth trouble, nor concerns with disappearing colonies..... Perhaps there are fewer pirates than believed (i.e. they have been mostly wiped out in advance by Geth and/or Collectors).

I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Alliance was funding Cerberus to help deal with the missing Colonists


I would. Anderson acts like working with Cerberus is treason.

Working with Cerberus is Treason.  Which is why it annoys the hell out of me that my Alliance loyal Shepard couldn't nail them to the wall once she reached the Citadel.

Working with Cerberus is at least officially treason. Cerberus is described in ME1 as having deep political influence within the Alliance though.

Even so, it really did bother me that when the Council accuses you of working with Cerberus and you don't have the option to say 'Funny you should mention that. I just happen to have brought you a Cerberus ship filled with yummy intel, and am happy to report what I know.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Moiaussi wrote...

Lord Coake wrote...

You know what would happen if the US decided to send a full carrier battlegroup to, say, Guam (a US commonwealth) with orders to go on high alert, scour the area for pirates and such, and open fire if they found any?

The entire South Pacific would explode.  It's by no means a false dilemma.  Other nations start getting more than a little nervous and twitchy when full sized fleet groups are within main battery range of their territory.

A battlegroup around Guam would be in range of China though, wouldn't it? And wouldn't a lot of the issue be because of that? The Terminus systems don't seem to have any organized anything (contrary to codex and ME1 implications). It is also noteworthy that the 'Terminus pirates' aren't mentioned as having had any Geth trouble, nor concerns with disappearing colonies..... Perhaps there are fewer pirates than believed (i.e. they have been mostly wiped out in advance by Geth and/or Collectors).

The US routinely has battle groups near Guam. 

As for dealing with pirates, please see also "Somali pirates, world naval response"...

[Moiaussi]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The US routinely has battle groups near Guam. 

As for dealing with pirates, please see also "Somali pirates, world naval response"...

The battle groups near Guam are not routinely on full alert other than training drills though, are they? Any agressive moves in that region would normally be a show of force in support of Taiwan, wouldn't they?

And last I checked, Somalia is nowhere near Guam, with no nations even remotely the power of China objecting to US operations there.

[Lord Coake]

Moiaussi wrote...

Even so, it really did bother me that when the Council accuses you of working with Cerberus and you don't have the option to say 'Funny you should mention that. I just happen to have brought you a Cerberus ship filled with yummy intel, and am happy to report what I know.

Oh, sweet Jobu, this.

"Watch out for the AI, and hit the place quick, since I'm sure there's more than one person with Self-Destruct authority.  Also, the dark haired woman in the skintight cleavage suit is a biotic, and so is the Alliance traitor in the armory."

The council is struck silent.

"Get every hacker you've got trying to hit the Normandy's systems to keep EDI -the AI- busy, then get a full strike team to take the ship.  There's one elevator, and four decks.  Bow airlock and central docking bay are the only points of entry.  However, before I came here, I picked up Garrus Vakarian and Mordin Solus on Omega, so once the **** starts flying, we can count of some good support from the inside.  None of the crewman are armed, but the two Cerberus flunkis are.  I don't know if Zaeed Massani will be of help, but he doesn't like Cerberus much, so I think he'll nail down engineering pretty quick once he sees Citadel forces hitting the docking bay.  The ships doctor won't resist at all, and I would greatly appreciate it if she wasn't harmed."

Modifié par Lord Coake, 26 août 2010 - 09:54 .

[Kasen]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

The Alliance, no matter how powerful they may be, needs a shadow organization like Cerberus. They need someone who works undercover and does and what can't normally be done. I am fully supportive of the idea of a Cerberus-like organization working under complete Alliance supervision. The problem is that the real Cerberus is led by someone who is too busy thinking about himself. I realize that Timmy claims that he cares for what's best for humanity, and I realize that there is no direct evidence that suggests he's lying, but nevertheless, his methods are too strong to put up with. No matter how important Cerberus would be/have been to the Alliance, the fact that they are led by someone like Timmy is enough to take them out of the picture. At best, Cerberus are anti-heroes.

The asari commando's, the salarian STG's, etc. all have thier own "governments" supervising them. Cerberus is supervised by a single person who doesn't even have a name. Who knows what Timmy might have in mind? In fact, giving what he has done yet, what makes ANYONE think he does in fact have the "right idea"? He doesn't seem to care about anyone but himself. He keeps using people as bait in order to achieve his goals, while sitting on that chair and smoking his soul. How many times has he sent a Cerberus team on a mission and got them all killed just to recover a single item? How many times did he send Shepard on a mission and almost got her killed, only to tell her that it was a "calculated risk"?

The Alliance may need an organization like Cerberus, but they most certainly don't need someone with Tim's mentality. The Alliance is there to combat the likes of Tim, not support them. Shepard is the only person who can expose Tim's plans and go to the Alliance with everything she knows, at which point the Alliance wouldn't think twice before taking action.

This is pretty much exactly how I feel on the subject as well. The Illusive Man's recklessness is holding Cerberus back.

Cerberus has some good people and good ideas (though their most successful projects seem to involve R&D of weapons, armory and technology such as EDI and the Normandy, rather than their scientific experiments which seem to be destined to backfire), but the Illusive Man has got to go.

[Skirlasvoud]

While I agree that humanity might need a shadow organisation, we definitly don't need Cerberus or TIM. The organisation lacks oversight and clear goals. "Furthering humanity's interest" isn't telling us diddly and that's exactly what the problem is. It could mean anything from clothing war orphans to blatant racism, unethical experiments and active hostility against all other races. They presume to do both at the same time and use one to make excuses for the other.



Just look what happened to Jack, or those human colonies they unleashed husks and ferral rachni on. Sacrificing human lives for the "betterment of humanity."

And the moment you confront TIM about it, he acts completely oblivious. For a man claiming to have total control over Cerberus, there sure are many cells acting outside his knowledge. How convenient that when things go wrong, it really never is Cerberus' fault.

That says one of two things:
TIM lies and and he has been ordering the whole thing, which makes him an evil, evil man.
TIM is telling the truth and Cerberus is completely out of control.



There's too many people working within Cerberus, who clearly have conflicting goals. On hand hand you've got your rogue scientists experimenting on fellow humans and interogators who take it too far and traumatize Veetor further, on the other hand there's your entry level, disullisioned employees like Kelly who think Cerberus are all about petting fluffy kittens.

There's no cohesion at all, no soul, no real comunal conscience or responsibility. Cerberus wouldn't be able to look itself in the mirror, if TIM hadn't fogged it up so bad. If one hand knew what the other was doing, the whole organisation would fall apart.



That's no way to run any shadow organisation I'd rely on. Heck, to call it an organisation would be an exageration.
Cerberus is less of an organisation and more of a feeling humankind has, now that they're taking babysteps into the universe. It's nothing more than a group of really scared beings, afraid of what their place is in the universe and so convinced in their own hubris, that they can justify doing anything at all. They kind of remind me of first grade really. It's sad.

Modifié par Skirlasvoud, 26 août 2010 - 10:55 .

[In Exile]

Lord Coake wrote...
You know what would happen if the US decided to send a full carrier battlegroup to, say, Guam (a US commonwealth) with orders to go on high alert, scour the area for pirates and such, and open fire if they found any?

The entire South Pacific would explode.  It's by no means a false dilemma.  Other nations start getting more than a little nervous and twitchy when full sized fleet groups are within main battery range of their territory.

No, you're missing my point.

The false dillema being used by both sides right now is that for the Alliance to take action, they have to send in the fleet. That's not true.

Is Cerberus using a fleet to track down the Collectors? No. They're using a single ship - an advanced ship, mind you, but a single one. If the Alliance rebuilt the SR-1 and sent it to investigate the loss of the colonists, with some other potential human Spectre candidate (or better yet an actual Spectre) they could achieve exactly what Shepard is doing.

Yes, they would not be able to get past the Omega-4 relay. But they could discover the collectors are abducting entire colonies, and then, as a Council race, humanity could push for action.

IWorking with Cerberus is Treason.  Which is why it annoys the hell out of me that my Alliance loyal Shepard couldn't nail them to the wall once she reached the Citadel.

The hypothesis offered was that the Alliance itself funded Cerberus to search for the colonists. But that's nonsense if Cerberus is a criminal organization.

[In Exile]

jbblue05 wrote...
Anderson isn't as high ranking in the Alliance as you might think.

The Alliance knows its risky sending ships into the Terminus and Human Colonies are being abducted which means all human colonies are at risk even in Alliance space

The Alliance is funding Cerberus to get intel and stop whomever is abducitng these colonies.
The Alliance gets to keep its hands clean while getting answers

Plausible, but that goes back to asking ourselves to what degree Cerberus and the Alliance are one entity. The Illusive Man acts as if they are separate. If anyone has any reason to pretend like they're the same thing it's TIM. Think about it - if he proves to Shepard Cerberus is really a shadow operation of the Alliance, then Shepard has a duty to help them, and it isn't even a conflict of interest.

Shepard already dealt with highly classified missions before, and is a Spectre, so it is absolutely win-win for TIM to lay those cards on the table.

That he doesn't, IMO, is a sign that Cerberus is not Alliance.

[In Exile]

Kasen13 wrote...
This is pretty much exactly how I feel on the subject as well. The Illusive Man's recklessness is holding Cerberus back.

Cerberus has some good people and good ideas (though their most successful projects seem to involve R&D of weapons, armory and technology such as EDI and the Normandy, rather than their scientific experiments which seem to be destined to backfire), but the Illusive Man has got to go.

It's almost as if when they're off not doing things that are crazy, they get results. Like Pragnia - finding out how to improve biotics so that humanity is equal to the asari, awesome idea. Torturing children to do it? Stupid idea. Some of the stuff they were doing to Jack wasn't even useful in advancing technology. WTF does shooting her up with narcotist and having her kill 6 year olds in deathmatches solve?

[Skirlasvoud]

jbblue05 wrote...

Anderson isn't as high ranking in the Alliance as you might think.

The Alliance knows its risky sending ships into the Terminus and Human Colonies are being abducted which means all human colonies are at risk even in Alliance space

The Alliance is funding Cerberus to get intel and stop whomever is abducitng these colonies.
The Alliance gets to keep its hands clean while getting answers

I'd say that if in Mass effect, I encounter a disfraught admiral Kahoku who just lost half his platoon to a Cerberus trap and later claims they're a Alliance organisation who have gone completely rogue, that this removes beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Cerberus is Illegal.

When Cerberus goes as far as abduct and kill high ranking Alliance officials, that this doesn't bode well for Alliance-Cerberus relations. Sure Tim can wave all Cerberus responsibility and blame it on "rogue" elements like the spineless deviant that he is, but I don't think a goverment is going to put up with that.

Sure I can start a club "in interest of killing Kahoku", hire a monkey, put it in a Cerberus costume, give it a loaded Cerberus gun with my prints on it and than train it to shoot Kahoku, but do you really think that the Alliance won't hold me accountable after I disband the club, disclaim all responsibility and blame the monkey?


If the alliance really wanted a shadow organisation, it can do a hell of a lot better than Cerberus. It would at least found something that would answer to its masters and can be held accountable in keeping with its goals. 

Modifié par Skirlasvoud, 26 août 2010 - 11:21 .