98 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Lord Coake wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Even so, it really did bother me that when the Council accuses you of working with Cerberus and you don't have the option to say 'Funny you should mention that. I just happen to have brought you a Cerberus ship filled with yummy intel, and am happy to report what I know.

Oh, sweet Jobu, this.

"Watch out for the AI, and hit the place quick, since I'm sure there's more than one person with Self-Destruct authority.  Also, the dark haired woman in the skintight cleavage suit is a biotic, and so is the Alliance traitor in the armory."

The council is struck silent.

"Get every hacker you've got trying to hit the Normandy's systems to keep EDI -the AI- busy, then get a full strike team to take the ship.  There's one elevator, and four decks.  Bow airlock and central docking bay are the only points of entry.  However, before I came here, I picked up Garrus Vakarian and Mordin Solus on Omega, so once the **** starts flying, we can count of some good support from the inside.  None of the crewman are armed, but the two Cerberus flunkis are.  I don't know if Zaeed Massani will be of help, but he doesn't like Cerberus much, so I think he'll nail down engineering pretty quick once he sees Citadel forces hitting the docking bay.  The ships doctor won't resist at all, and I would greatly appreciate it if she wasn't harmed."

I have always strongly supported the game play option to ditch Cerberus at any point before the Reaper IFF mission... so long as it was accompanied by an appropriatly game-progressing cinema sequence of the Human Reaper activating the Citadel Relay.

[Sturmwulfe]

I'm going to try to take a more neutral approach here.



I was thinking about the Mass Effect 2 story line and Cerberus and the Illusive Man in general, and recall that many people here are vehemently opposed to TIM and Cerberus because of what they perceive as their motivations and a very checkered history.



It's clear TIM and Cerberus are pro-humanity, but I don't think that necessarily means anti-alien for the most part. Case in point, in the comic series, TIM sought out Feron and Liara to help them recover Shepard's body. If they were thoroughly anti-alien, I doubt they'd trust something like that to races they'd likely consider inferior or incompetent due to the sensitivity of the mission and how important it was to their goals. Really, if you think of other races as dogs, are you going to trust them doing something like that? For that matter, out of a galaxy of literally billions of individuals of unimaginably diverse skill sets, if Cerberus and TIM truly hated anything not human, why would they recommend to Shepard a dossier of the best available individuals across a variety of species? I have no doubt with a bit more looking, TIM's operatives could have found several humans of comparable skills to the aliens they pick up.



I also get the impression that TIM also only has a very loose over watch of his various cells. He provides the resources, and directions, but leaves it up to his operatives to achieve their objectives. From what I've seen on the Normandy, he only gave suggestions for things to do, and left Shepard be to manage the whole affair. Miranda obviously filled TIM in on what happened, and she strikes me as an individual who is fairly through in her reports and demands perfection in her work, and others.



Imagine if Miranda didn't report back more than the bare essentials, or kept TIM in the dark about a lot of what happened, how could TIM possibly enforce or punish you or your crew? You can be anywhere in the galaxy in fairly short amounts of time, and Cerberus agents don't know what the other cells are. I don't think he'd send a hit squad after the most dangerous individual alive who has been spending months assembling a team of the most ruthless killers and operatives in the galaxy. In other words, he trusts Shepard to do what's right.



Of course right is all a matter of perspective. While I myself find Cerberus' past very spotted and absolutely vile from some of the cells and what they've done to people, but let's go back to my suggestion that TIM doesn't maintain a strict oversight of his cells. Perhaps he laid out some guidelines expecting certain results and left it up to the teams to make the ends justify the means knowing that some things were going to be considered brutal and horrible.



However, the victors write history, and in the end, saving the galaxy from the Reapers is a goal that matters above all else, so let me ask you this: If you are given the option to kill one person to save a dozen lives, would you make that trade? What about hundreds? Thousands? At what point do you finally make the trade? Don't just say "I'd never do that! It's never worth it!" Really think about it, and put yourself in that situation. Mass Effect briefly glimpses at that possibility a few times, but never obviously to that scale. While Cerberus agents have doubtless committed terrible crimes and untold numbers of individuals suffered and died, sometimes without any apparent meaning, we really don't know what they were trying to do. Anything we suggest is speculation. For all we know they were trying to see what could possibly harm a Reaper that wouldn't involve obscene amounts of casualties (I don't know if they found the derelict Reaper before or after the Battle of the Citadel). Personally, I don't think what they were doing were worth the costs of life, but it's something to consider.



Also, look at the people on the Normandy. All of them had no issues with aliens, and all believed they were doing what was best for the galaxy. Some, notably Jacob and Kelly, acknowledge Cerberus has done bad things they don't agree with at all, but they feel Cerberus is the only people who are willing to make a stand and do something about a threat that everyone else has turned their backs on and pretends doesn't exist.



If it weren't for Cerberus, the Collectors may not have been stopped. The Collectors may have made another Reaper and wiped out humanity. If the base was saved, TIM obviously sees it as a chance to save the galaxy, and perhaps give humanity a leverage to have more influence over galactic affairs. Destroy it, TIM believes you've probably doomed everyone and made any sacrifices made before pointless and futile.



Shepard obviously was never pro-Cerberus to begin with and killed a lot of Cerberus operatives and ruined a lot of operations. TIM knew what Shepard stood for and represented, it was never a secret and it was very well documented. You don't spend untold fortunes bringing someone back from the dead and give them able equipment, resources, and support if you weren't working towards the same end goal. In the end, stopping the Reapers is all that matters.



That said, I don't really support Cerberus and TIM.The ends don't always justify the means, and I believe by using the base like TIM wanted, you're pretty much walking down the path of the Protheans and doing something in the Reaper's favour, much like centering around the Citadel and the Mass Relays that they laid for us.



The path to hell is paved with good intentions. Just my two cents anyhow.

[Dean_the_Young]

In and of itself, high-ranking government officials coming at (and losing in) conflicts with secret agencies doesn't mean that those black agencies are illegal. 'You know too much' has been known to lead to 8 mm brain hemorage in the past, even to 'important' people. And I'm not just talking about in ye old fillinthename-istan: there are things governments will not let out, and will commit crimes to cover it up. More important secrets will give way to greater crimes.



I will point out that Cerberus didn't move against Kohaku directly until he was revealing the facts (and history) behind them to people who really didn't need to know. Even if, especially if, Cerberus weren't rogue, people would be sent to shut Kohaku up: the Alliance doesn't want people to know about decades-old nuclear spy satellites, let alone that they spent decades sponsoring a paramilitary force that committed terrorisms and assassinations against Alliance citizens and employees.



Cerberus's actions against Kohaku in particular were retaliatory and defensive responses to his private war against them, not something done for **** and giggles. I feel Kohaku was more than justified and right to work for his men, but I am not surprised in the least that Cerberus would defend itself once he started trying to hurt them and their goals.

[Kavadas]

KainrycKarr wrote...

...gives the Alliance a real legitimate answer to asari commandos, the STG, and whatever the turian's have, and gives Shepard a legit fighting unit.

Uhhh, yeah, the Alliance already has that with "N" forces, Alliance Special Forces, which are recruited from the Navy's marine detachment.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I have always strongly supported the game play option to ditch Cerberus at any point before the Reaper IFF mission... so long as it was accompanied by an appropriatly game-progressing cinema sequence of the Human Reaper activating the Citadel Relay.

Shep could still have gotten the neccessary Intel via EDI (if loyal) or by hacking the Normandy databases, or by hacking Cerberus transmissions based on encryption tech obtained via the Normandy.

Or TIM could have sent the info anyway, knowing that regardless of methods, what needed to be done still needed to be done.

[Giggles_Manically]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Lord Coake wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Even so, it really did bother me that when the Council accuses you of working with Cerberus and you don't have the option to say 'Funny you should mention that. I just happen to have brought you a Cerberus ship filled with yummy intel, and am happy to report what I know.

Oh, sweet Jobu, this.

"Watch out for the AI, and hit the place quick, since I'm sure there's more than one person with Self-Destruct authority.  Also, the dark haired woman in the skintight cleavage suit is a biotic, and so is the Alliance traitor in the armory."

The council is struck silent.

"Get every hacker you've got trying to hit the Normandy's systems to keep EDI -the AI- busy, then get a full strike team to take the ship.  There's one elevator, and four decks.  Bow airlock and central docking bay are the only points of entry.  However, before I came here, I picked up Garrus Vakarian and Mordin Solus on Omega, so once the **** starts flying, we can count of some good support from the inside.  None of the crewman are armed, but the two Cerberus flunkis are.  I don't know if Zaeed Massani will be of help, but he doesn't like Cerberus much, so I think he'll nail down engineering pretty quick once he sees Citadel forces hitting the docking bay.  The ships doctor won't resist at all, and I would greatly appreciate it if she wasn't harmed."

I have always strongly supported the game play option to ditch Cerberus at any point before the Reaper IFF mission... so long as it was accompanied by an appropriatly game-progressing cinema sequence of the Human Reaper activating the Citadel Relay.

Neither of those options can work though...
You will hit the plot railroad and be incinerated.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I have always strongly supported the game play option to ditch Cerberus at any point before the Reaper IFF mission... so long as it was accompanied by an appropriatly game-progressing cinema sequence of the Human Reaper activating the Citadel Relay.

Shep could still have gotten the neccessary Intel via EDI (if loyal) or by hacking the Normandy databases, or by hacking Cerberus transmissions based on encryption tech obtained via the Normandy.

Or TIM could have sent the info anyway, knowing that regardless of methods, what needed to be done still needed to be done.

It can be reasonably explained away: if you do it right before the Derilect Reaper, when Cerberus or the Council sends a(nother) squad to secure it, the Reaper is lost and no one gets out with the IFF, and EDI's Cerberus protocols wipe all the intel you would otherwise have. If you do it before, say, after Horizon but before the Collector Ship, Shepard is already under harsh supicion and EDI doesn't have data of note on the Collectors, and TIM doesn't have the kind of suicide team needed to actually get in and out of the Collector Ship and can't get the information through the Alliance/Council interference in a way that would let you do it.

If you're going to be railroaded, might as well show  the railroading to be necessary.

If you wanted to do it after, once EDI was loyal but before the base, you should be heading to the Collector Base now, considering what phase of the game you're at. And afterwards, you've already made you base dicision.

[Skirlasvoud]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

In and of itself, high-ranking government officials coming at (and losing in) conflicts with secret agencies doesn't mean that those black agencies are illegal. 'You know too much' has been known to lead to 8 mm brain hemorage in the past, even to 'important' people. And I'm not just talking about in ye old fillinthename-istan: there are things governments will not let out, and will commit crimes to cover it up. More important secrets will give way to greater crimes.

I will point out that Cerberus didn't move against Kohaku directly until he was revealing the facts (and history) behind them to people who really didn't need to know. Even if, especially if, Cerberus weren't rogue, people would be sent to shut Kohaku up: the Alliance doesn't want people to know about decades-old nuclear spy satellites, let alone that they spent decades sponsoring a paramilitary force that committed terrorisms and assassinations against Alliance citizens and employees.

Cerberus's actions against Kohaku in particular were retaliatory and defensive responses to his private war against them, not something done for **** and giggles. I feel Kohaku was more than justified and right to work for his men, but I am not surprised in the least that Cerberus would defend itself once he started trying to hurt them and their goals.

I'm going to stop right there and concede that the Rabbit hole might well be infinitly deep if you adopt that perspective on the matter. Maybe Anderson is being kept in the dark. Maybe all the alliance grunts are being lied to and Cerberus is actually a subsidiary of their Alliance. Maybe all the animosity is just a means to prevent loss of face with the Council races. Maybe if you upload the Cerberus critical intell to alliance command, that Admiral Hacket is actually in lague with Cerberus and saves it. Maybe the entirity of the Alliance will roll over on my Paragon shepard in the end, because they wanted galaxial domination in the vision of Cerberus all along, eventualy founding an Orwellian dystropia where 22st Century goverments freely wipe out entire colonies just to test secret weapons.

Fine, you're right. It's all possible and everything I belief the alliance to be, will cave in to a wall of deceit.

However, I don't think it will go that far, simply because it's going to scrabble my suspence of disbelief and gameplay. Dealing with the reapers is bad enough. The story isn't set up to support betrayel from within and shadow goverments as an encore. As long as agreeing with Cerberus gets me Renegade points, I'm going to wail on them.

Modifié par Skirlasvoud, 27 août 2010 - 12:51 .

[Dean_the_Young]

No, I agree that Cerberus is rogue. Just that the fact that they kill Kohaku, who was openly and increasingly publicly threatening them and their goals, is not proof that they are. They would have reason to do the same thing either way, regardless of if they were rogue or not.

[In Exile]

Kavadas wrote...

Uhhh, yeah, the Alliance already has that with "N" forces, Alliance Special Forces, which are recruited from the Navy's marine detachment.

They might match the asari commandos that just seem to be hardcore powerful biotics, but the STGs are more than that. The Spectres were based off them, and they are more than just a military op. Mordin was STG, and he was much more scientist than soldier. The STG seems to have developed the genophage as well.

No, Cerberus financial, military and intelligence operations are the counterbalance that we need for the STG. It just shouldn't be run by TIM, and it shouldn't be run with this insane eugenics goal.

[Skyblade012]

Why does everyone seem to be ignoring the fact that the Alliance was trying to do what they could to help?



Yeah, the Alliance couldn't send in the fleet, but they could send in tech experts to install and monitor new defense systems. Both Freedom's Progress and Horizon had just had their defenses updated before the Collector strikes. Why does this not count for anything?

[jbblue05]

Skirlasvoud wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Anderson isn't as high ranking in the Alliance as you might think.

The Alliance knows its risky sending ships into the Terminus and Human Colonies are being abducted which means all human colonies are at risk even in Alliance space

The Alliance is funding Cerberus to get intel and stop whomever is abducitng these colonies.
The Alliance gets to keep its hands clean while getting answers

I'd say that if in Mass effect, I encounter a disfraught admiral Kahoku who just lost half his platoon to a Cerberus trap and later claims they're a Alliance organisation who have gone completely rogue, that this removes beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Cerberus is Illegal.

When Cerberus goes as far as abduct and kill high ranking Alliance officials, that this doesn't bode well for Alliance-Cerberus relations. Sure Tim can wave all Cerberus responsibility and blame it on "rogue" elements like the spineless deviant that he is, but I don't think a goverment is going to put up with that.

Sure I can start a club "in interest of killing Kahoku", hire a monkey, put it in a Cerberus costume, give it a loaded Cerberus gun with my prints on it and than train it to shoot Kahoku, but do you really think that the Alliance won't hold me accountable after I disband the club, disclaim all responsibility and blame the monkey?


If the alliance really wanted a shadow organisation, it can do a hell of a lot better than Cerberus. It would at least found something that would answer to its masters and can be held accountable in keeping with its goals. 

So Kahoku side of story is a 100% true without a doubt their isn't more to the story. Kahoku was playing with fire and he got burnt.

If TIM can use total BS and blame everything on rogue elements. Does that mean the Alliance can do the same thing.=]

When you say better shadow organization you mean a 100% ethical 100% nice 100% trustworthy 100% positive results  Good Luck with that.

Its total BS if you think Cerberus is a complete failure 
They have had failures and they had successes and breakthroughs.

[KainrycKarr]

Kavadas wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

...gives the Alliance a real legitimate answer to asari commandos, the STG, and whatever the turian's have, and gives Shepard a legit fighting unit.

Uhhh, yeah, the Alliance already has that with "N" forces, Alliance Special Forces, which are recruited from the Navy's marine detachment.

I don't recall seeing any Alliance Special Forces other than Kaidan, in either games. Ashley was a random pickup.

Also, I don't think you understood what I meant.

I meant a group, not a ranking.

Modifié par KainrycKarr, 27 août 2010 - 07:27 .

[Homebound]

I think Garrus' father said it best when he said "Either do your job right, or dont do it at all". Or something to that effect.



Cerberus is an "organization" created by TIM to fulfill TIM's agenda. I am Anti-Cerberus, and to that effect, I am anti-TIM.

[Skyblade012]

jbblue05 wrote...

Skirlasvoud wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Anderson isn't as high ranking in the Alliance as you might think.

The Alliance knows its risky sending ships into the Terminus and Human Colonies are being abducted which means all human colonies are at risk even in Alliance space

The Alliance is funding Cerberus to get intel and stop whomever is abducitng these colonies.
The Alliance gets to keep its hands clean while getting answers

I'd say that if in Mass effect, I encounter a disfraught admiral Kahoku who just lost half his platoon to a Cerberus trap and later claims they're a Alliance organisation who have gone completely rogue, that this removes beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Cerberus is Illegal.

When Cerberus goes as far as abduct and kill high ranking Alliance officials, that this doesn't bode well for Alliance-Cerberus relations. Sure Tim can wave all Cerberus responsibility and blame it on "rogue" elements like the spineless deviant that he is, but I don't think a goverment is going to put up with that.

Sure I can start a club "in interest of killing Kahoku", hire a monkey, put it in a Cerberus costume, give it a loaded Cerberus gun with my prints on it and than train it to shoot Kahoku, but do you really think that the Alliance won't hold me accountable after I disband the club, disclaim all responsibility and blame the monkey?


If the alliance really wanted a shadow organisation, it can do a hell of a lot better than Cerberus. It would at least found something that would answer to its masters and can be held accountable in keeping with its goals. 

So Kahoku side of story is a 100% true without a doubt their isn't more to the story. Kahoku was playing with fire and he got burnt.

What more does there have to be?  Anderson supplies enough corroboration to Kahoku's story for me.  We never hear anything against Kahoku, and we know that he disappears and is assassinated as Cerberus.

There is no evidence at all to go against his story, and plenty to corroborate it.  Anderson's testimony on Baines, the dead marines on Akuze, Kahoku's body in a Cerberus base.  How exactly are you defending them?

If TIM can use total BS and blame everything on rogue elements. Does that mean the Alliance can do the same thing.=]

Um, the point is, he can't.  He tries to declare everything that blows up in his face on rogue elements, but he's an idiot if he expects anyone to believe it, especially given his reputation as a control freak.

When you say better shadow organization you mean a 100% ethical 100% nice 100% trustworthy 100% positive results  Good Luck with that.

Um, not necessarily.  But I would settle for "some accountability and not being overseen by a psychopath".

Its total BS if you think Cerberus is a complete failure 
They have had failures and they had successes and breakthroughs.

True, they have some successes.  Mostly in the R&D department, along very orthodox methods.  The biggest unorthodox success they had was in bringing Shepard back, and that seemed to mostly be a problem they solved by throwing more and more money and resources at it until it worked.

[Inquisitor Recon]

I like TIM, and I like some of Cerberus' goals, but the fact that they are extremely incompetent and staffed by too many idiots is rather annoying.

[Moiaussi]

The truth behind Cerberus:

Ten years ago, a group of crack Alliance commandos were sent to prison for crimes they didn't commit. They escaped. Today, still wanted by the government, they survive as a convenient plot device. If humanity has a problem, if no one else can help, if you can find them and the A (and -Teams aren't available, maybe you can hire the C-Team: Team Cerberus.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 27 août 2010 - 08:03 .

[didymos1120]

ReconTeam wrote...

I like TIM, and I like some of Cerberus' goals, but the fact that they are extremely incompetent and staffed by too many idiots is rather annoying.

I'm definitely not pro-Cerberus, and I don't like TIM other than as a good character, but I do think the incompetence charge is a little unfair. Or at least looking at things from the wrong perspective.  In a lot of ways, I actually think it's Cerberus' job to fail.

A huge amount of scientific and engineering research fails to produce much of anything, possibly even the majority of it. We usually only see or hear about the stuff that makes it into the journals or to the market.  The dead ends and contaminated specimens and faulty math, etc., don't really get discussed much outside biographies or histories or those occasions when a failed experiment happened to reveal something even more significant than the question it was attempting to investigate.

In that regard, Cerberus isn't particularly exceptional, and especially so because they often deliberately pursue things that are known to be long-shots to begin with.  They're also in the business of pursuing lines of research that are inherently dangerous.  I.e., a large part of their purpose is to try the really risky sh!t (both from a financial and a "grievous bodily harm" perspective), that most in-the-public-eye, research-oriented organizations simply could not do even if they wanted to.

So,  the problem isn't that they have so many failures.  That's only to be expected.  No, the problem is that because of the ruthless approach they so often take, combined with a need for the sorts of personalities that are willing to use unethical research methods , those failures tend to have significant body counts, as well as being potentially disastrous. 

Modifié par didymos1120, 27 août 2010 - 11:30 .

[KainrycKarr]

ReconTeam wrote...

I like TIM, and I like some of Cerberus' goals, but the fact that they are extremely incompetent and staffed by too many idiots is rather annoying.

They brought a guy who was very much dead, back to life. That requires a certain degree of competence tbh.

[Skirlasvoud]

@Didymos1120: Amen

KainrycKarr wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

I like TIM, and I like some of Cerberus' goals, but the fact that they are extremely incompetent and staffed by too many idiots is rather annoying.

They brought a guy who was very much dead, back to life. That requires a certain degree of competence tbh.

As long as you throw enough money at it, even a blind pig finds a truffel, occasionally.

I'm not doubting that Cerberus gets a job done when they put their minds too it. I simply fear that the means are reprehensible and the possible outcomes disasterous. It's one thing to get the job done, it's another to create an even bigger mess in the process. That's a whole different kind of incompetence. 

Just look at how the game starts. Shepard has been awake for exactly 5 seconds and already we have to clean up after Cerberus, deal with internal sabatoage, power intrigue and falty security systems.  


Cerberus is like lobbing a live hand grenade into a buss to resolve a hostage situation. Sure its going to solve problems and I'm sure of is that TIM will be right there, blaming the explosion and the schrapnel for all the extra deaths. Only thing his organisation did was throw it, so they can't be held responsible. Their intentions were true... honest! 

Modifié par Skirlasvoud, 27 août 2010 - 12:35 .

[jbblue05]

Skyblade012 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Skirlasvoud wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Anderson isn't as high ranking in the Alliance as you might think.

The Alliance knows its risky sending ships into the Terminus and Human Colonies are being abducted which means all human colonies are at risk even in Alliance space

The Alliance is funding Cerberus to get intel and stop whomever is abducitng these colonies.
The Alliance gets to keep its hands clean while getting answers

I'd say that if in Mass effect, I encounter a disfraught admiral Kahoku who just lost half his platoon to a Cerberus trap and later claims they're a Alliance organisation who have gone completely rogue, that this removes beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Cerberus is Illegal.

When Cerberus goes as far as abduct and kill high ranking Alliance officials, that this doesn't bode well for Alliance-Cerberus relations. Sure Tim can wave all Cerberus responsibility and blame it on "rogue" elements like the spineless deviant that he is, but I don't think a goverment is going to put up with that.

Sure I can start a club "in interest of killing Kahoku", hire a monkey, put it in a Cerberus costume, give it a loaded Cerberus gun with my prints on it and than train it to shoot Kahoku, but do you really think that the Alliance won't hold me accountable after I disband the club, disclaim all responsibility and blame the monkey?


If the alliance really wanted a shadow organisation, it can do a hell of a lot better than Cerberus. It would at least found something that would answer to its masters and can be held accountable in keeping with its goals. 

So Kahoku side of story is a 100% true without a doubt their isn't more to the story. Kahoku was playing with fire and he got burnt.

What more does there have to be?  Anderson supplies enough corroboration to Kahoku's story for me.  We never hear anything against Kahoku, and we know that he disappears and is assassinated as Cerberus.

There is no evidence at all to go against his story, and plenty to corroborate it.  Anderson's testimony on Baines, the dead marines on Akuze, Kahoku's body in a Cerberus base.  How exactly are you defending them?

If TIM can use total BS and blame everything on rogue elements. Does that mean the Alliance can do the same thing.=]

Um, the point is, he can't.  He tries to declare everything that blows up in his face on rogue elements, but he's an idiot if he expects anyone to believe it, especially given his reputation as a control freak.

When you say better shadow organization you mean a 100% ethical 100% nice 100% trustworthy 100% positive results  Good Luck with that.

Um, not necessarily.  But I would settle for "some accountability and not being overseen by a psychopath".

Its total BS if you think Cerberus is a complete failure 
They have had failures and they had successes and breakthroughs.

True, they have some successes.  Mostly in the R&D department, along very orthodox methods.  The biggest unorthodox success they had was in bringing Shepard back, and that seemed to mostly be a problem they solved by throwing more and more money and resources at it until it worked.

It seems your very close-minded about Cerberus limiting yourself to only see the negatives while it seems your trusting of other organization when you know so little about them

[Moiaussi]

Skyblade012 wrote...

Um, not necessarily.  But I would settle for "some accountability and not being overseen by a psychopath".

Cerberus could definately use more oversight, but not sure about TIM being a psychopath. In comparason, the Council seems to use even less oversight regarding Spectres.

[Skirlasvoud]

Moiaussi wrote...

Skyblade012 wrote...

Um, not necessarily.  But I would settle for "some accountability and not being overseen by a psychopath".

Cerberus could definately use more oversight, but not sure about TIM being a psychopath. In comparason, the Council seems to use even less oversight regarding Spectres.

Haha, yes. I almost forgot about the Council, their relationship to Saren and their propensity to dismiss the obvious. They don't have the best track record either and they sure make Cerberus seem competent in comparison. 

However, the Council still has one crucial thing that Cerberus has lacking: Accountability.


When informed of rumors that Saren might have gone rogue, the council calls for a hearing. Therein, they'll way the evidence and at least acknowledge the possibility that something might be wrong in their organisation.
When presented with irrefutable proof, they will accept that one of theirs has gone rogue and they'll do everything within reason to correct the flaw.  
Behind the scenes, they will start making reperations for all the damage their mistake has caused.

That they will still not accept the existence of the reapers is irritating at best, but its human nature to ignore that your entire world is based on a lie. Guess the council is no different.
(My guess is that the council is well aware of their existence, but they just don't want to make it common knowledge.)



When TIM and Cerberus is informed that their own have gone rogue, they will lift their shoulders and blame rogue elements, or accept that sometimes extreme measures are neccesary. They're just going to stay the course and claim that some damage along the way is inevitable. Cerberus can't be held accountable.
The ONLY positive about this, is that this gives  such a small, powerfull organisation the flexibility to act immidiatly on imminent dangers like the Reapers.



If the Council had any of Cerberus' mindset, they would have reacted something like this to the news of Saren's attack:

"Saren has attacked a human world you say? Well, we already saw that coming, but hey, what are you going to do about stuff like that. The system isn't perfect and these things just happen. The galaxy is a dangerous place you know."
"Spectres? Naw, we don't know anything about no spectres. We're not responsible for them at any rate. Must have been some Turian organisation. You should ask those guys."

[Bad King]

I don't trust TIM, and although there seem to be a lot of good people in Cerberus, I don't really trust the organization as a whole. But I see them as a powerful ally against the reapers. I have many grievances with Cerberus, but they must all be swept aside when the fate of the galaxy is in jeopardy. I also don't fully trust the Alliance either. They have had dodgy dealings with criminals plus there is also the question of the information stored in Keiji's greybox. Again though, these grievances must be swept aside until after the reapers are defeated (that is IF the reapers are defeated!).