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What's with the anti-Cerberus and "racism" trend?


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#1
Burdokva

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I couldn't help but wonder about a general sentiment throughout the forums, namely Cerberus' alleged racism. More importantly, why so many people not only only make parallels, but outright identify Cerberus' pro-human development goal with human racism? It's completely wrong and devoid of logic.

Calling Cerberus racist, in our human terms, is an invalid argument. Racism argues that members of the same species (note: English isn't my native language, so don't jump on me if I mess biological terms), that is - humans, are members of different races based solely on outer differences, like facial features, skin tones etc. Some going to the extremes of taking cultural and language differences as a measure. While that's a moot point, at best, as genetically humans across the planet are practically the same, and the UN banned the use of "race"for different ethnic groups (note: Mass Effect 2's "human genetic diversity" theme left me confused), it is valid for an alien species - quite simply, aliens would be very different from humans. Not necessarily in their looks, but genetically.

That doesn't mean treating an alien as an "inferior", but simply different. I fail to see how Cerberus can be allegedly racist when: one, humans within the organization seem to be treated equally; actually, there isn't a hint of human sub-division at all, to the contrary, it's wholesale human endeavor. Second, why do people here perceive human political (and probably military and technological) superiority, even dominance, as "racist"? 

I understand racism seems to be a very touchy subject for people in the West (the vast majority on this forum I suspect being Westerners) but isn't this going too far? A human organization cast down for it's attempt to ensure the welfare of it's own race, in a situation where we have an actual racial variety? Isn't this a taking political liberalism to the extreme and applying it without taking note of the very different context? Humanity arguably has greater goals that may take precedence over nations, even cultures, but again, I fail to see how humanity wholesale benefit can be bad when dealing with aliens, even at their own expense, when they may not only not share same liberal values, but even have opposing values and contrary goals.

Modifié par Burdokva, 26 août 2010 - 10:36 .


#2
Netzach

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Because of the relation between Cerberus and Terra Firma.

Specism?

Modifié par kanuvis, 26 août 2010 - 10:37 .


#3
KainrycKarr

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It's because many people mistake self-preservation with hating and attacking aliens. and to be honest, Cerberus is guilty of that in some cases.

#4
Dean_the_Young

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When people say racist, they generally mean speciest. Racism is just shorthand.

Cerberus isn't even discriminatory by species in the classical sense of racism, in that some species are inherently superior/inferior in mind and ability and thus justified in ruling/being dominated by others. It is at worst the 'new' sense of racism: less a matter of actual race and more of an us-them mentality, in no small part due to the political set up of the galaxy. There are traditional racist groupings in the Mass Effect universe, but Cerberus the survivalist group isn't one of them.

The reapers are 'racist' because they view being a Reaper as justification for killing all the inferior species (oversimplified here, but the idea is true). The Reapers are variations of racist colonialism, disregarding all other opinions and rights not their own.

The Citadel Council is racist, as a large part of what jobs you can have in the Citadel/Council is based on your species, and the justification of the ruling order is that the top species have proven themselves smart and enlightened and others are unready to do certain acts. With potential rights, responsibilities, and privileges open to you based on your species and it's rank, the Council is a racial caste system.

Cerberus is much harder to place exactly. It is closest to a xeno-nationalist group: we don't see it claiming humans as innately superior to other races, don't hear arguments that aliens are inferior and deserve to be dominated by humanity. It simply aspires it's grouping to become the most powerful, and it's grouping only really came to exists (humanity as a single political unit) due to the nature of the Council system solidifying the Alliance organization. Cerberus advocates the advancement of a unified species in a system in which species are treated as monolithic political units: it does not, however, show in-game justifications based on traditional racist justifications.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 26 août 2010 - 01:45 .


#5
PsyrenY

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I imagine that this is why Cerberus keeps Terra Firma around, to attract all the backwater intergalactic hillbillies that simply hate other species so they don't apply to join Cerberus en masse. Even so, Miranda says that "too many blind xenophobes" make it into Cerberus regardless.




#6
Graz73

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As other people already said, "Racism" is really "Species-ism" in the Mass Effect context.



Think of it in this real world way:

When the British took over India, they viewed themselves as superior to the locals and thought it was their right and duty to rule there. That was not really the same as racism in the current sense of "all men are created equal". It was more of Us vs. The alien culture. The British held their values above the Indians and did as they pleased. The Indians eventually forced out the British govt after many years of wars and protests.



So, in the ME universe, would it be OK for humans to take over a planet that had been claimed by some other "inferior" alien species? Cerberus would say we need to do anything to ensure human dominance. The Alliance has their own, slightly more balanced, but still not fair, sense of legality. For example, the council might condemn humans for trying to take over a Salarian world, but they might not care if the humans settled on a Batarian world.

#7
Dean_the_Young

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Graz73 wrote...

As other people already said, "Racism" is really "Species-ism" in the Mass Effect context.

Think of it in this real world way:
When the British took over India, they viewed themselves as superior to the locals and thought it was their right and duty to rule there. That was not really the same as racism in the current sense of "all men are created equal". It was more of Us vs. The alien culture. The British held their values above the Indians and did as they pleased. The Indians eventually forced out the British govt after many years of wars and protests.

So, in the ME universe, would it be OK for humans to take over a planet that had been claimed by some other "inferior" alien species? Cerberus would say we need to do anything to ensure human dominance. The Alliance has their own, slightly more balanced, but still not fair, sense of legality. For example, the council might condemn humans for trying to take over a Salarian world, but they might not care if the humans settled on a Batarian world.

Except Cerberus hasn't been pushing to conquer any alien planets, and arguing that position is a short-sighted strawman given that Cerberus would almost certainly argue against a needless invasion. Dominance is more than control of some more garden worlds, and human interests are far more than territory control.

Cerberus pushes human interests, but war, even victorious, does not inherently support that. If Humanity fights the Batarians, the Batarians will fight back, and even if/when the Alliance did win, the damage from the war would be severe: even besides retaliatory raids on human colonies, sabatoge of human interests, pirate/terrorist attacks, and even a mass-attack towards Earth, the political reaction towards the Alliance for doing such a thing would hurt the Alliance for generations. Plenty of people already think humanity is too violent, aggressive, and dangerous, and a needless war of conquest against even the Batarians won't do anything but enhance that position. And for all the costs, in human lives, capital, and political position, all you would get for it is... a few worlds with insurgent populations to manage for years, decades, or even centuries (if you don't kill them all).

Humanity isn't starving or pressed for more places to have. The galaxy is still mostly unexplored.

As much as I hate to bring contemporary history to bear, the invasion of Iraq would be an excellent analogy. No one liked Saddam. Iraq even has important and strategic resources and position. The conventional war itself was more or less easily won. But can anyone say the US has come out of Iraq ahead of where it was, in international position, power, or wealth?

#8
didymos1120

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

When people say racist, they generally mean speciest. Racism is just shorthand.
 


When people say "speciesist" (yes, the other 's' really is in there, unfortunately), they nearly always mean discrimination against and exploitation of non-sapient animals on the basis that their non-sapience makes it OK.   On the other hand, if you really prefer to use the term "speciesist" in that way, maybe that will become the most common usage.  For myself, I'll stick with "racism".  If nothing else, everybody knows exactly what you mean when you use it in an ETI context, and there's plenty of linguistic precedent: e.g., human race.  Besides, "speciesist" is just a highly non-euphonious word.

Modifié par didymos1120, 26 août 2010 - 03:26 .


#9
Badpie

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Yeah, what they all said. They use "racist" but I guess technically it would "specist"...but that sounds funny. And they talk about "the Council races" etc.

#10
NICKjnp

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Read the new novel... then you will understand why people call them "racist". You gain some insight into the operatives views of aliens.

#11
Moiaussi

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NICKjnp wrote...

Read the new novel... then you will understand why people call them "racist". You gain some insight into the operatives views of aliens.


There are always issues treating novels as cannon, mostly in that the novels and games often contradict each other. Regardless, the Council seems more racist that Cerberus.

The Council assume any given colony has racial ties rather than economic ties. The reality is that most of the 'human' worlds in the Terminus systems are corporate, with only informal ties to the Alliance. The Council doesn't negotiate membership on a world by world basis, but on a race basis.

Cerberus on the other hand seems to have no objections working with other races, including with race mixed mercenary groups, and seems to routinely experiment with human genetic code, including attempts to splice in thorian or rachni DNA. In doing so, they are treating humanity as a political unit rather than as a genetic one and are acting more like Miranda described them: Humanity's STG or Commandos.

There is an obvious issue with there being no civilian oversight, but it seems unlikely that Udina or Anderson have much of that either. It isn't even clear what kind of government the Alliance has and even less clear what the chain of command really is. Ambassadors usually don't write policy, merely communicate it.

#12
mosor

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NICKjnp wrote...

Read the new novel... then you will understand why people call them "racist". You gain some insight into the operatives views of aliens.


Kai Leng is a Xenphobe. It doesn't mean Cerberus as a whole is Xenophobic. Just that an organization that promoates humanity attracts Xenophobes as well as others like Kelly, Miranda, Jacob and others like the enginers on the Normandy.

Modifié par mosor, 26 août 2010 - 04:21 .


#13
Mallissin

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Uh, racism is literally "my genes are better than your genes", so no...the correct term isn't "Species-ism" because "Species-ism" would be racism.



That's like arguing the sky isn't blue, it's light blue.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism



So, yah. Cerberus are a bunch of racists.

#14
AngryFrozenWater

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The OP can drop the ball to the visitors of this forum, but in fact BioWare portraits Cerberus as a "pro-human" organization and gives it an aura similar to racist organizations in our society. That's a given. So, I don't understand what the OP is trying to achieve here.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 26 août 2010 - 04:28 .


#15
Zulu_DFA

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Moiaussi wrote...
There is an obvious issue with there being no civilian oversight, but it seems unlikely that Udina or Anderson have much of that either. It isn't even clear what kind of government the Alliance has and even less clear what the chain of command really is. Ambassadors usually don't write policy, merely communicate it.


There is no such thing as "civilian" oversight in the Alliance. The Alliance is not some democratic government "of the people, by the people and for the people". It was created and has ever been since a political-economical-military block "of the corporate capital, by the corporate capital and for the corporate capital". Udina and TIM are just right men in their respective right places, advancing the corporate interests of the Alliance businesses.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 26 août 2010 - 04:30 .


#16
mosor

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Mallissin wrote...

Uh, racism is literally "my genes are better than your genes", so no...the correct term isn't "Species-ism" because "Species-ism" would be racism.

That's like arguing the sky isn't blue, it's light blue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

So, yah. Cerberus are a bunch of racists.


Racism does not literally mean my genes are better than yours. The word has been around even before we discovered genetics.

#17
Siansonea

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Elevating humanity's interests in the galaxy doesn't have to come at the cost of debasing all other sentient species. Cerberus is not a human advocacy group, it is a human supremacist group. As such, and due to their methods, being anti-Cerberus is the Paragon path. IRL, I would never work with a group like Cerberus under any circumstances.

#18
Siansonea

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mosor wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

Uh, racism is literally "my genes are better than your genes", so no...the correct term isn't "Species-ism" because "Species-ism" would be racism.

That's like arguing the sky isn't blue, it's light blue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

So, yah. Cerberus are a bunch of racists.


Racism does not literally mean my genes are better than yours. The word has been around even before we discovered genetics.


Racism basically means "my skin color/hair texture/eye color/other phenotypical variation makes me a better/more deserving person than you". "Race" is a really ambiguous term, and one which has virtually no meaning from a scientific standpoint. We are all virtually clones of one another, but we all have these cosmetic variations due to which climate our recent ancestors adapted to. It's mind-boggling that people think these variations have any value attached to them whatsoever.

In the ME world, though, Cerberus IS a bunch of racists. They believe humanity deserves to be elevated to the pinnacle of power, for no other reason than they are human. Not exactly a logical, rational, or cooperative viewpoint.

#19
Inthatplace

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AngryFrozenWater wrote...

The OP can drop the ball to the visitors of this forum, but in fact BioWare portraits Cerberus as a "pro-human" organization and gives it an aura similar to racist organizations in our society. That's a given. So, I don't understand what the OP is trying to achieve here.


Pro-human does not mean anti-alien.

#20
mosor

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Siansonea II wrote...

mosor wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

Uh, racism is literally "my genes are better than your genes", so no...the correct term isn't "Species-ism" because "Species-ism" would be racism.

That's like arguing the sky isn't blue, it's light blue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

So, yah. Cerberus are a bunch of racists.


Racism does not literally mean my genes are better than yours. The word has been around even before we discovered genetics.


Racism basically means "my skin color/hair texture/eye color/other phenotypical variation makes me a better/more deserving person than you". "Race" is a really ambiguous term, and one which has virtually no meaning from a scientific standpoint. We are all virtually clones of one another, but we all have these cosmetic variations due to which climate our recent ancestors adapted to. It's mind-boggling that people think these variations have any value attached to them whatsoever.

In the ME world, though, Cerberus IS a bunch of racists. They believe humanity deserves to be elevated to the pinnacle of power, for no other reason than they are human. Not exactly a logical, rational, or cooperative viewpoint.


You're confusing the terms dominance and and racism. Dominance is the US geopolitical situation for the past 60 years. The codex even hints this direction by refering humanity to "the sleeping giant". It's not southern plantions, KKK and death camps. TIM never advocates racism, and plenty of personnel like Kelly and Miranda are not "racist" or even xenophobic. Just because some of the personnel are xenophobes, doesn't mean the stated goal of the organization aims for racism.

Modifié par mosor, 26 août 2010 - 05:12 .


#21
Daewan

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Inthatplace wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

The OP can drop the ball to the visitors of this forum, but in fact BioWare portraits Cerberus as a "pro-human" organization and gives it an aura similar to racist organizations in our society. That's a given. So, I don't understand what the OP is trying to achieve here.


Pro-human does not mean anti-alien.


Except, of course, when it does.

The problem with Cerberus is that it is facing off against groups that look down on them simply because they are Human.  "Your species needs to learn its place."  "Your species isn't ready for this."  "Your species is too new to the galaxy."  Putting them against the backdrop of the Council mentality makes their pro-Human stance seem almost rational.  Until you remember that they tested bioweapons on Humans "for the good of Humanity" and are trying to find ways to cripple or wipe out other species.

Or did you think that they had some other plan for the Thorian creepers or the Rachni that they were raising?  Or that whole thing where they sacrificed unsuspecting Alliance military to Thresher Maws and then tested the acid on the survivors?

All of Miranda's nonsense about "different cells" doesn't hold water, not logically.  Someone paid those scientists, someone bribed those officers.  Someone made up this development plan for all of Cerberus, and sent people out to do horrible things to other Humans with the promise that they would never get caught (UNC: Dead Scientists, ME1).  Someone is out there deciding the value of different Humans and their worth to the "cause" and the value of Humans compared to other species.  If that's not racism, what is?

#22
Siansonea

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Yeah, for what they did to Jack, Admiral Kahoku, Corporal Toombs, and countless other humans and non-humans alike, Cerberus will always be an extremist group, literally a terrorist organization. Not really very sympathetic to their cause, but then I'm not terribly pro-humanity.

#23
mosor

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Siansonea II wrote...

Yeah, for what they did to Jack, Admiral Kahoku, Corporal Toombs, and countless other humans and non-humans alike, Cerberus will always be an extremist group, literally a terrorist organization. Not really very sympathetic to their cause, but then I'm not terribly pro-humanity.


Actually, Cerberus didn't do anything to, let alone terrorize any alien that's capable of calculus other than to retrieve that biotic on the quarian ship. That wouldn't have happened if those guys didn't use the quarians as a shield. In fact they helped stop the batarian virus would have killed everyone at the citadel, the seat of alien power. That's pretty telling for a supposedly "racist" and terrosit  organization.

Modifié par mosor, 26 août 2010 - 06:06 .


#24
PWENER

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Human Dominance FTW!

#25
PWENER

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Inthatplace wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

The OP can drop the ball to the visitors of this forum, but in fact BioWare portraits Cerberus as a "pro-human" organization and gives it an aura similar to racist organizations in our society. That's a given. So, I don't understand what the OP is trying to achieve here.


Pro-human does not mean anti-alien.


This Human understands...