198 réponses à ce sujet

[PWENER]

No, but neither I trust my political leaders.

Cerberus isn' evil, just misunderstood.

Interpret that anyway you like, I'll get flamed either way.

[Daewan]

mosor wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Yeah, for what they did to Jack, Admiral Kahoku, Corporal Toombs, and countless other humans and non-humans alike, Cerberus will always be an extremist group, literally a terrorist organization. Not really very sympathetic to their cause, but then I'm not terribly pro-humanity.

Actually, Cerberus didn't do anything to, let alone terrorize any alien that's capable of calculus other than to retrieve that biotic on the quarian ship. That wouldn't have happened if those guys didn't use the quarians as a shield. In fact they helped stop the batarian virus would have killed everyone at the citadel, the seat of alien power. That's pretty telling for a supposedly "racist" and terrosit  organization.

No, instead they spent all their time damaging other Humans.  I'm sure they had a really good reason, that wasn't "racist" at all.  No, wait, that doesn't make any sense.  Okay, you tell me.  Why did they do all that stuff to other Humans?

[MotoSkunkX]

Burdokva wrote...
Calling Cerberus racist, in our human terms, is an invalid argument. Racism argues that members of the same species (note: English isn't my native language, so don't jump on me if I mess biological terms), that is - humans, are members of different races based solely on outer differences, like facial features, skin tones etc.

Erm, no.  Calling someone or something racist means that that person or group hates another person or group based solely on their race and/or ethnicity.

It has nothing to do with racial or ethnic classifications in themselves, which may or may not be valid(scientists are still debating it, the simplest example I can think of is that different medicines/treatments affect members of different "races" differently, but the simple three race(mongoloid, caucasian and negroid) theory is argued to be just that - way too freaking simple, it's a good BASE classification, but further division is necessary... it's an ongoing debate and I'm typing way too much).

[mosor]

Daewan wrote...

mosor wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Yeah, for what they did to Jack, Admiral Kahoku, Corporal Toombs, and countless other humans and non-humans alike, Cerberus will always be an extremist group, literally a terrorist organization. Not really very sympathetic to their cause, but then I'm not terribly pro-humanity.

Actually, Cerberus didn't do anything to, let alone terrorize any alien that's capable of calculus other than to retrieve that biotic on the quarian ship. That wouldn't have happened if those guys didn't use the quarians as a shield. In fact they helped stop the batarian virus would have killed everyone at the citadel, the seat of alien power. That's pretty telling for a supposedly "racist" and terrosit  organization.

No, instead they spent all their time damaging other Humans.  I'm sure they had a really good reason, that wasn't "racist" at all.  No, wait, that doesn't make any sense.  Okay, you tell me.  Why did they do all that stuff to other Humans?

Didn't realize human on human crime was considered racist in ME.  Though both TIM and Jack are white, so it can't be that archaic version of racism.

Actually the real reason Cerberus does those experiments, is that a large segment of humanity are still insecure about their place in the galaxy after the first contact war. The psychlogical shock of having the first sentient species you ever meet shoot at you because of some law of theirs you know nothing about is pretty big. Plenty of humans still have bitter memories of this event. They vow that never again will humanity be unprepared for something like that. That they'll always be vigilent; persue technologies, biotics; whatever means necessary to keep themselves strong so humanity is protected in the future. Hence Cerberus.  It's not about destroying aliens, or even controlling them. it's about making us strong so we can chart our own future without being dictated to or have to beg for help, only to have those aliens tell us it's not in their interests to help us.

Modifié par mosor, 26 août 2010 - 06:24 .

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...
There is an obvious issue with there being no civilian oversight, but it seems unlikely that Udina or Anderson have much of that either. It isn't even clear what kind of government the Alliance has and even less clear what the chain of command really is. Ambassadors usually don't write policy, merely communicate it.

There is no such thing as "civilian" oversight in the Alliance. The Alliance is not some democratic government "of the people, by the people and for the people". It was created and has ever been since a political-economical-military block "of the corporate capital, by the corporate capital and for the corporate capital". Udina and TIM are just right men in their respective right places, advancing the corporate interests of the Alliance businesses.

What has that got to do with anything? What you are in effect saying is that Shepard (and the Council) just voted Anderson and/or Udina into a political office where they are answerable to noone?

Military or Cilvilian, there is presumably still a heiarchy. Udina was referred to as "Ambassador", not "Commander-in-Chief." Orders and requests in ME1 came through Hackett a lot more often than through Udina.

If the president of the US visits a foreign country, they are referred to as president, not as 'ambassador.' If the minister of defence visits, or if the admiral of the navy visits, they are referred to by *their* titles rather than as 'ambassador.'

Ambassadors exist so that generals and admirals and domestic leaders (civilian or military) don't have to spend the majority of their time liasing with whichever nation(s) the ambassador is assigned to. This is no different than any other subordinate assignment, military or civilian.

By the way, we know from ME1 that there are senators, and the codex tells us there is an Alliance Parliament, so it is a democracy and not the military dictatorship you seem to think it is.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
There is no such thing as "civilian" oversight in the Alliance. The Alliance is not some democratic government "of the people, by the people and for the people". It was created and has ever been since a political-economical-military block "of the corporate capital, by the corporate capital and for the corporate capital". Udina and TIM are just right men in their respective right places, advancing the corporate interests of the Alliance businesses.

Do you have a source for that, or is it speculation?

[jbblue05]

mosor wrote...

Daewan wrote...

mosor wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Yeah, for what they did to Jack, Admiral Kahoku, Corporal Toombs, and countless other humans and non-humans alike, Cerberus will always be an extremist group, literally a terrorist organization. Not really very sympathetic to their cause, but then I'm not terribly pro-humanity.

Actually, Cerberus didn't do anything to, let alone terrorize any alien that's capable of calculus other than to retrieve that biotic on the quarian ship. That wouldn't have happened if those guys didn't use the quarians as a shield. In fact they helped stop the batarian virus would have killed everyone at the citadel, the seat of alien power. That's pretty telling for a supposedly "racist" and terrosit  organization.

No, instead they spent all their time damaging other Humans.  I'm sure they had a really good reason, that wasn't "racist" at all.  No, wait, that doesn't make any sense.  Okay, you tell me.  Why did they do all that stuff to other Humans?

Didn't realize human on human crime was considered racist in ME.  Though both TIM and Jack are white, so it can't be that archaic version of racism.

Actually the real reason Cerberus does those experiments, is that a large segment of humanity are still insecure about their place in the galaxy after the first contact war. The psychlogical shock of having the first sentient species you ever meet shoot at you because of some law of theirs you know nothing about is pretty big. Plenty of humans still have bitter memories of this event. They vow that never again will humanity be unprepared for something like that. That they'll always be vigilent; persue technologies, biotics; whatever means necessary to keep themselves strong so humanity is protected in the future. Hence Cerberus.  It's not about destroying aliens, or even controlling them. it's about making us strong so we can chart our own future without being dictated to or have to beg for help, only to have those aliens tell us it's not in their interests to help us.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

It seems some people want Humanity to stand down and take orders from aliens.
Humanity didn't join the Council just to blend in or be another species they want to be the best and show they aren't going to be pushed around.

[Killjoy Cutter]

jbblue05 wrote...

mosor wrote...

Daewan wrote...

mosor wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Yeah, for what they did to Jack, Admiral Kahoku, Corporal Toombs, and countless other humans and non-humans alike, Cerberus will always be an extremist group, literally a terrorist organization. Not really very sympathetic to their cause, but then I'm not terribly pro-humanity.

Actually, Cerberus didn't do anything to, let alone terrorize any alien that's capable of calculus other than to retrieve that biotic on the quarian ship. That wouldn't have happened if those guys didn't use the quarians as a shield. In fact they helped stop the batarian virus would have killed everyone at the citadel, the seat of alien power. That's pretty telling for a supposedly "racist" and terrosit  organization.

No, instead they spent all their time damaging other Humans.  I'm sure they had a really good reason, that wasn't "racist" at all.  No, wait, that doesn't make any sense.  Okay, you tell me.  Why did they do all that stuff to other Humans?

Didn't realize human on human crime was considered racist in ME.  Though both TIM and Jack are white, so it can't be that archaic version of racism.

Actually the real reason Cerberus does those experiments, is that a large segment of humanity are still insecure about their place in the galaxy after the first contact war. The psychlogical shock of having the first sentient species you ever meet shoot at you because of some law of theirs you know nothing about is pretty big. Plenty of humans still have bitter memories of this event. They vow that never again will humanity be unprepared for something like that. That they'll always be vigilent; persue technologies, biotics; whatever means necessary to keep themselves strong so humanity is protected in the future. Hence Cerberus.  It's not about destroying aliens, or even controlling them. it's about making us strong so we can chart our own future without being dictated to or have to beg for help, only to have those aliens tell us it's not in their interests to help us.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

It seems some people want Humanity to stand down and take orders from aliens.
Humanity didn't join the Council just to blend in or be another species they want to be the best and show they aren't going to be pushed around.

Which is more of a propoganda-style excuse for supporting Cerberus.  A human being in the ME setting could be 100% pro-human-take-no-BS-from-aliens-we-demand-our-place, and 100% anti-Cerberus.

[sanadawarrior]

I would think the reason most people would associate Cerberus with being racists is that Miranda states in one of her conversations that most people join cerberus because of xenophobia.

[mosor]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...


Which is more of a propoganda-style excuse for supporting Cerberus.  A human being in the ME setting could be 100% pro-human-take-no-BS-from-aliens-we-demand-our-place, and 100% anti-Cerberus.

What's your point? That Cerberus is racist because you're anti-cerberus? Cerberus is an organization to achieve those above aims. If you prefer to achieve those aims alone, or by destroying cerberus, that's your choice. It isn't going to magically make them racist because you disaprove of their methods.

[Prince Keldar]

Humanity doesn't have to be pushed around, and hey thats great. That does not mean Humanity should disregard or dominate other alien species. If Cerberus was any more powerful and really pushed the dominance agenda, Humanity would "alienate" (no pun intended) the other species and would likely get involved in a conflict that they couldn't win.



Cooperation is not the same as being pushed around or blending in, and cooperation is not Cerberus.

[upsettingshorts]

It's not racism or prejudice.  We already have a word for what Cerberus are:

JINGOISTS
(def: extreme chauvinism or nationalism marked especially by a belligerent foreign policy )

That's its own bag of worms in itself, but at least the narrative of the pro and anti-Cerberus debate would be more accurate.  Cerberus isn't concerned with spreading the idea that humans are inherently superior, just pursuing the interests of humanity so that they are politically and militarily superior. 

Early uses of the term in the USA were connected to the foreign policy of Theodore Roosevelt, who was frequently accused of jingoism. In an 8 October 1895 New York Timesinterview, he responded, "There is much talk about 'jingoism'. If by 'jingoism' they mean a policy in pursuance of which Americans will with resolution and common sense insist upon our rights being respected by foreign powers, then we are 'jingoes'."

Jingoism is a sort of advanced, aggressive patriotism.  Patriotism as the defining idea is the key as members of Cerberus range from simple patriots like the regular crew of the Normandy (and Jacob) to the hardliners like The Illusive Man who is clearly in favor of a realpolitik execution of jingoist human policies.  Roosevelt coined the phrase "big stick diplomacy" and late 19th century American foreign policy was distinctly imperialist, covering not only the Spanish-American War, but also the later occupation of the Phillipines, and the earlier forced opening of Japan and various unequal treaties with the East Asian powers.  That isn't to say that the Americans and Europeans of the time weren't at some level encouraged by racist notions like those expressed in White Man's Burden but their basic goals were nationalist, not racist, as acquisition of colonial possessions was a race between Western European cultures.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 26 août 2010 - 07:23 .

[Daewan]

mosor wrote...

Daewan wrote...

mosor wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Yeah, for what they did to Jack, Admiral Kahoku, Corporal Toombs, and countless other humans and non-humans alike, Cerberus will always be an extremist group, literally a terrorist organization. Not really very sympathetic to their cause, but then I'm not terribly pro-humanity.

Actually, Cerberus didn't do anything to, let alone terrorize any alien that's capable of calculus other than to retrieve that biotic on the quarian ship. That wouldn't have happened if those guys didn't use the quarians as a shield. In fact they helped stop the batarian virus would have killed everyone at the citadel, the seat of alien power. That's pretty telling for a supposedly "racist" and terrosit  organization.

No, instead they spent all their time damaging other Humans.  I'm sure they had a really good reason, that wasn't "racist" at all.  No, wait, that doesn't make any sense.  Okay, you tell me.  Why did they do all that stuff to other Humans?

Didn't realize human on human crime was considered racist in ME.  Though both TIM and Jack are white, so it can't be that archaic version of racism.

Actually the real reason Cerberus does those experiments, is that a large segment of humanity are still insecure about their place in the galaxy after the first contact war. The psychlogical shock of having the first sentient species you ever meet shoot at you because of some law of theirs you know nothing about is pretty big. Plenty of humans still have bitter memories of this event. They vow that never again will humanity be unprepared for something like that. That they'll always be vigilent; persue technologies, biotics; whatever means necessary to keep themselves strong so humanity is protected in the future. Hence Cerberus.  It's not about destroying aliens, or even controlling them. it's about making us strong so we can chart our own future without being dictated to or have to beg for help, only to have those aliens tell us it's not in their interests to help us.

Wow, you almost got it word for word.

The ****s believed in the supremacy of an Aryan
master
race and claimed that Germans
represent the most pure Aryan nation.[12]
They argued that Germany's survival as a modern great nation required
it to create a New Order — an empire in
Europe that would give the German nation the necessary land mass,
resources, and expansion of population needed to be able to economically
and militarily compete with other powers.

-- Short version, from Wikipedia

That's why people see Cerberus as racist.  Because it's the same words, the same philosophy, the same culture.  But in space.

[Moiaussi]

Prince Keldar wrote...

Humanity doesn't have to be pushed around, and hey thats great. That does not mean Humanity should disregard or dominate other alien species. If Cerberus was any more powerful and really pushed the dominance agenda, Humanity would "alienate" (no pun intended) the other species and would likely get involved in a conflict that they couldn't win.

Cooperation is not the same as being pushed around or blending in, and cooperation is not Cerberus.

Really? So why are aliens on TIM's 'preferred operative's list' for Shep to recruit, and why does Cerberus routinely work with mixed race mercenaries such as Blue Suns, which seems to be Turian led even if it does hire Humans?

[i love lamp x3]

because the illusive man wants the collector base for human galactic dominance "over the reapers and beyond"

plus the definition of illusive is deceptive or liar. don't mix it up with elusive, meaning hard to find. 

that illusive man is no good! cerberus is evil and even miranda figures that out in the end. TIM will use aliens to do his bidding. why not? but in the end he wants humanity to control the galaxy. maybe he doesn't outwardly HATE aliens, but he either thinks humans are superior or wants them to be.

Modifié par i love lamp x3, 26 août 2010 - 07:26 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

mosor wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...


Which is more of a propoganda-style excuse for supporting Cerberus.  A human being in the ME setting could be 100% pro-human-take-no-BS-from-aliens-we-demand-our-place, and 100% anti-Cerberus.

What's your point? That Cerberus is racist because you're anti-cerberus? Cerberus is an organization to achieve those above aims. If you prefer to achieve those aims alone, or by destroying cerberus, that's your choice. It isn't going to magically make them racist because you disaprove of their methods.

1)  Read the post I was responding to.  Get some context.  My point, as I said, is that opposing Cerberus and being against other species pushing humanity around are not exclusive.  In other words, the one has nothing to do with the other. 

2)  I'm not saying that they're racist because I disapprove of their methods.  I'm saying I don't like Cerberus because I disapprove of their methods, and because they have a strong racist / human-supremacist  vein.

[upsettingshorts]

German National Socialists couldn't be a worse comparison to Cerberus. If you must shoe-horn them into the fascist category then Mussolini's Italy is closer, but neither is a particularly good analogy.



Again, they're jingoes, not fascists. There are numerous key differences.

[mosor]

Daewan wrote...

The ****s believed in the supremacy of an Aryan
master
race and claimed that Germans
represent the most pure Aryan nation.[12]
They argued that Germany's survival as a modern great nation required
it to create a New Order — an empire in
Europe that would give the German nation the necessary land mass,
resources, and expansion of population needed to be able to economically
and militarily compete with other powers.

-- Short version, from Wikipedia

That's why people see Cerberus as racist.  Because it's the same words, the same philosophy, the same culture.  But in space.

I never metioned racial superiority in my posts and neither does TIM. As for being expansionist, that's hardly racism. Besides, no one is arguing expansionism at the expense of others. The galaxy is big. Real estate isn't a premium. The discussion is human dominance. I'm arguing dominance in the US geopolitical sense for the past 60 years. That's a far cry from racism.

[Moiaussi]

Daewan wrote...

Wow, you almost got it word for word.

The ****s believed in the supremacy of an Aryan
master
race and claimed that Germans
represent the most pure Aryan nation.[12]
They argued that Germany's survival as a modern great nation required
it to create a New Order — an empire in
Europe that would give the German nation the necessary land mass,
resources, and expansion of population needed to be able to economically
and militarily compete with other powers.

-- Short version, from Wikipedia

That's why people see Cerberus as racist.  Because it's the same words, the same philosophy, the same culture.  But in space.

Except that unlike that particular nation at that particular point in history, there doesn't seem to be any evidence of Cerberus persecuting other races, nor claiming Human superiority to be a natural thing as opposed to something earned through effort.

Germany convinced itself that they would conquer because they were superior. Based on your logic, every nation in the world is evil because each has its own government and promotes its own national interests. Self promotion is not the same thing as persecution of others.

[Prince Keldar]

Moiaussi wrote...

Prince Keldar wrote...

Humanity doesn't have to be pushed around, and hey thats great. That does not mean Humanity should disregard or dominate other alien species. If Cerberus was any more powerful and really pushed the dominance agenda, Humanity would "alienate" (no pun intended) the other species and would likely get involved in a conflict that they couldn't win.

Cooperation is not the same as being pushed around or blending in, and cooperation is not Cerberus.

Really? So why are aliens on TIM's 'preferred operative's list' for Shep to recruit, and why does Cerberus routinely work with mixed race mercenaries such as Blue Suns, which seems to be Turian led even if it does hire Humans?

There is a greater threat now that the reapers are coming.  "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".  Once the reaper threat is over one way or another, what do you think the Illusive Man would do.

Also, I said if Cerberus had more power.  Right now they are looked upon as terrorists, although they are still large, (Maybe because we don't really know how big Cerberus is) they need to work with others.  Notice the people they work with (Blue Suns) they pay for. 

[upsettingshorts]

Prince Keldar wrote...
There is a greater threat now that the reapers are coming.  "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".  Once the reaper threat is over one way or another, what do you think the Illusive Man would do.

Also, I said if Cerberus had more power.  Right now they are looked upon as terrorists, although they are still large, (Maybe because we don't really know how big Cerberus is) they need to work with others.  Notice the people they work with (Blue Suns) they pay for. 

Your speculation ignores a couple key points:

* The Illusive Man and Miranda both appreciate the influence one can gain through goodwill.  For example, the very first things they say in the cinematic about Paragon Shepard saving the Council in ME1.  Soft power isn't something racists typically endorse.

* When you give Veetor back to the Migrant Fleet, TIM expresses pleasant surprise that diplomacy worked (saying it's great whhen it works), but noted that everyone already distrusts Cerberus - often with good reason - and it isn't usually an option for them.

Allow me to beat the "they're jingoists not racists" drum yet again.  TIM is consistent in only one thing, that he wants to advance the cause of humanity, which is patriotic/nationalist but not racist.  Racists want to diminish and/or exterminate the influence of out-groups as the goal itself, not as a means to an end. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 26 août 2010 - 07:36 .

[jbblue05]

Prince Keldar wrote...

Humanity doesn't have to be pushed around, and hey thats great. That does not mean Humanity should disregard or dominate other alien species. If Cerberus was any more powerful and really pushed the dominance agenda, Humanity would "alienate" (no pun intended) the other species and would likely get involved in a conflict that they couldn't win.

Cooperation is not the same as being pushed around or blending in, and cooperation is not Cerberus.

Human dominance doesn't mean tyranny and oppression. Human dominance means having superior technology. Cerberus doesn't alienate themselves from specie they work with aliens a lot more then you think. If anyone is alienating its the council and alliance anti-cerberus propaganda.  

Your proving my version of human dominance Cerberus is only a couple hundred strong how are they going to take over the Galaxy. The Alliance isn't stupid just because they got superior technology they're not going to run around declaring war on every species. 

[Moiaussi]

Prince Keldar wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Prince Keldar wrote...

Humanity doesn't have to be pushed around, and hey thats great. That does not mean Humanity should disregard or dominate other alien species. If Cerberus was any more powerful and really pushed the dominance agenda, Humanity would "alienate" (no pun intended) the other species and would likely get involved in a conflict that they couldn't win.

Cooperation is not the same as being pushed around or blending in, and cooperation is not Cerberus.

Really? So why are aliens on TIM's 'preferred operative's list' for Shep to recruit, and why does Cerberus routinely work with mixed race mercenaries such as Blue Suns, which seems to be Turian led even if it does hire Humans?

There is a greater threat now that the reapers are coming.  "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".  Once the reaper threat is over one way or another, what do you think the Illusive Man would do.

Also, I said if Cerberus had more power.  Right now they are looked upon as terrorists, although they are still large, (Maybe because we don't really know how big Cerberus is) they need to work with others.  Notice the people they work with (Blue Suns) they pay for. 

Make up your mind. Do they cooperate with other races or not? Appearantly cooperating when it is really useful to do so does not count as cooperation to you.

Please explain to me which nations knowingly cooperate with others when it is *not* in their best interests to do so (barring via corruption within said nation's government).

[Inthatplace]

Daewan wrote...

Inthatplace wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

The OP can drop the ball to the visitors of this forum, but in fact BioWare portraits Cerberus as a "pro-human" organization and gives it an aura similar to racist organizations in our society. That's a given. So, I don't understand what the OP is trying to achieve here.

Pro-human does not mean anti-alien.

Except, of course, when it does.

The problem with Cerberus is that it is facing off against groups that look down on them simply because they are Human.  "Your species needs to learn its place."  "Your species isn't ready for this."  "Your species is too new to the galaxy."  Putting them against the backdrop of the Council mentality makes their pro-Human stance seem almost rational.  Until you remember that they tested bioweapons on Humans "for the good of Humanity" and are trying to find ways to cripple or wipe out other species.

Or did you think that they had some other plan for the Thorian creepers or the Rachni that they were raising?  Or that whole thing where they sacrificed unsuspecting Alliance military to Thresher Maws and then tested the acid on the survivors?

All of Miranda's nonsense about "different cells" doesn't hold water, not logically.  Someone paid those scientists, someone bribed those officers.  Someone made up this development plan for all of Cerberus, and sent people out to do horrible things to other Humans with the promise that they would never get caught (UNC: Dead Scientists, ME1).  Someone is out there deciding the value of different Humans and their worth to the "cause" and the value of Humans compared to other species.  If that's not racism, what is?

Wait, so experiments on fellow humans mean that Cerberus hates other species?

Pro-Human means that you want Humanity in a good spot.

Anti-Alien means you want to kill Aliens. These two definitions do not work together very well.

[Prince Keldar]

Moiaussi wrote...

Prince Keldar wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Prince Keldar wrote...

Humanity doesn't have to be pushed around, and hey thats great. That does not mean Humanity should disregard or dominate other alien species. If Cerberus was any more powerful and really pushed the dominance agenda, Humanity would "alienate" (no pun intended) the other species and would likely get involved in a conflict that they couldn't win.

Cooperation is not the same as being pushed around or blending in, and cooperation is not Cerberus.

Really? So why are aliens on TIM's 'preferred operative's list' for Shep to recruit, and why does Cerberus routinely work with mixed race mercenaries such as Blue Suns, which seems to be Turian led even if it does hire Humans?

There is a greater threat now that the reapers are coming.  "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".  Once the reaper threat is over one way or another, what do you think the Illusive Man would do.

Also, I said if Cerberus had more power.  Right now they are looked upon as terrorists, although they are still large, (Maybe because we don't really know how big Cerberus is) they need to work with others.  Notice the people they work with (Blue Suns) they pay for. 

Make up your mind. Do they cooperate with other races or not? Appearantly cooperating when it is really useful to do so does not count as cooperation to you.

Please explain to me which nations knowingly cooperate with others when it is *not* in their best interests to do so (barring via corruption within said nation's government).

Thats true.  Although I still do not like Cerberus you make some valid arguments.