198 réponses à ce sujet

[PWENER]

Its 12:32 A.M. let's type like babies!!!!!!

Modifié par PWENER, 26 août 2010 - 11:41 .

[Moiaussi]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

With regards to the Council's knowledge of Shepard's allegiance to Cerberus, your point depends entirely on when Shepard visits them, does it not?

In fact, if I was going to construct an order to go to each world and quest based on when they made sense to the plot, I'd say the Citadel ought to be visited after at least two recruitment missions but before meeting Ashley/Kaiden on Horizon - as Anderson says their activities - namely investigating you and Cerberus - is classified.

Edit: Though I might have forgotten because I've deleted them since my first playthrough, but if you get a Cerberus-related email from Anderson at the start of the game, then disregard my post and I concede the entirety of your point.

You do get the email from Anderson soon as you leave dock at the start of the game, asking that you come in to at least speak up for yourself. How would he even know where to send the email without knowing who you are working for?

[ajw]

I don't particularly like Cerberus myself but I don't outright dislike them either. The existance of Cerberus is partially due to the First Contact War when the Turians opened fire on Human ships without warning or provocation, and then afterwards had the cheak to blame Humans for starting the war by violating Council Law - which at the time they had no knowledge about.

Cerberus seems to promote human dominance - but The Illusive Man has become so focused on that that he's lost perspective. His organisation does horrible things at times - like what they did to Jack, Toombs and the pioneer colonists on Chasca - because there convinced there working for the 'greater good'. And that is a slippery slope to start on as it can lead to great pain and suffering for all concerned especially when people like The Illusive Man use 'its for the greater good' to make decisions that are morally completely bankrupt.

At other times though Cerberus is willing to take actions to deal with threats to humanity.   If that means saving the Council from a Batarian plot then so be it as if the Batarians had suceeded they would have likely started who knows how many wars which could cause pain and suffering to humanity.

Modifié par ajw, 27 août 2010 - 12:00 .

[Moiaussi]

Barquiel wrote...

...and you would support a canadian version of Cerberus?

a black ops organization that doesn't answer to your elected government, but to a single unelected individual who is accountable to no one?  a group that tortures canadian children and murders canadian soldiers/admirals?

...and why? canadian dominance of the world!

If they advocated Canadian ideals, Canadian dominance would involve peace through diplomacy, a lot of politeness, ice hockey for all, and coffee and doughnuts for everyone.

In reality, though, when we want to torture Canadians, we appearantly ship them off to Syria (or put on a Celine Dion concert).

[frylock23]

I don't necessarily view Cerberus as racist.  They don't seem to be actively working against the interests of other aliens simply to work against them.  They seem more like groups like La Raza, CAIR, or the NAACP - they unabashedly work to further/promote/advance the interests of their specific identity group without worrying overmuch about the effects on other groups when they do so.  Maybe they do it in a neverending quest for group superiority and dominance, maybe they do it simply because they believe they've been victimized and treated unfairly by other identity groups; either way, the results are sometimes unpleasant for anyone not in the organization.

The thing I really have a problem with is the Cerberus position that the ends justify the means.  To me that's what really makes Cerberus a scary group to deal with.  You can argue that the knowledge they gain from their experiments and projects can ultimately be put to good use (and the world did indeed wind up putting a lot of the WWII death camp data to good use even though it was obtained in the worst, most depraved and least ethical ways possible), but none of that erases the extreme brutality and lack of ethical regard displayed by Cerberus researchers or the fact that they are willing to employ those methods.
The question really is how much is too much?  How far is too far?  I think Cerberus walks a fine line and frequently steps over it.

[AresXX7]

IMO, the term racism just comes from it's basic definition(s) of not liking or trusting someone & a feeling of superiority over one, who isn't the same as you, the ME universe probably just "evolved" it from being ethnicity & religion based, to an entire species, making it  
a "sci-fi/future" version, sort of speak. (especially since it has been noted that human races have mixed so much, they aren't as "racially divided" as before - i.e. the rariety of blondes)

so the term is, basically, easier to use

Cerberus gets labeled with this because:
A. they have xenophobes in their midsts - it is known, but not discriminated upon, by the organization (the not liking aspect)
B. they do not trust other species - they will use them, if necessary, but they won't put them into a key position of authority/control, for any mission(s) i.e. Shep's alien squadmates - they're nothing more than tools, being used to achieve success, on a mission (no long term affiliations afterwards).
C. they do want human dominance, not just coexistence ( the superiority aspect)

the Alliance, under the guise of peaceful cooperation, has put themselves into a "limited" position, by allowing the council's mandates/ideas to supercede their own (hence, the council lapdog reference) so, more or less, they "shot themselves in the foot" when it comes to human only matters. i.e. human colonies in the Terminus Systems

Cerberus doesn't follow anyone elses agendas, but their own, which has labeled them as being "rogue"
however, their "at all costs" mentality is what makes them a "terrorist organization" because of their extreme use of measures, to achieve their goals. (even when it's used on humans as well)

Cerberus also wouldn't be perceived as much of a threat, if it weren't for them wanting to be ascendent over the other species, rather than just wanting to preserve humanity - which may have been their original role as an Alliance black ops unit

just my two cents on the subject - nothing more

[Mallissin]

I just noticed that the Cerberus logo looks like a vagina and the Alliance logo looks like the tip of a penis.




Just my two cents.

Modifié par Mallissin, 27 août 2010 - 12:18 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Moiaussi wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

...and you would support a canadian version of Cerberus?

a black ops organization that doesn't answer to your elected government, but to a single unelected individual who is accountable to no one?  a group that tortures canadian children and murders canadian soldiers/admirals?

...and why? canadian dominance of the world!

If they advocated Canadian ideals, Canadian dominance would involve peace through diplomacy, a lot of politeness, ice hockey for all, and coffee and doughnuts for everyone.

In reality, though, when we want to torture Canadians, we appearantly ship them off to Syria (or put on a Celine Dion concert).

HAHAHAHA!

Thats how we can stop the Reapers.
Upload the complete Celine Dion collection and watch them die...

Or watch as they go into the Poutine Buisness.

[mosor]

AriesXX7 wrote...

Cerberus gets labeled with this because:
A. they have xenophobes in their midsts - it is known, but not discriminated upon, by the organization (the not liking aspect)
B. they do not trust other species - they will use them, if necessary, but they won't put them into a key position of authority/control, for any mission(s) i.e. Shep's alien squadmates - they're nothing more than tools, being used to achieve success, on a mission (no long term affiliations afterwards).
C. they do want human dominance, not just coexistence ( the superiority aspect)

Replace Cerberus with the US government and aliens with Chinese nationals and all the statements you made still hold true. However only the fringe left would call the US government a racist institution.

[Chignon]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

If they advocated Canadian ideals, Canadian dominance would involve peace through diplomacy, a lot of politeness, ice hockey for all, and coffee and doughnuts for everyone.

In reality, though, when we want to torture Canadians, we appearantly ship them off to Syria (or put on a Celine Dion concert).

HAHAHAHA!

Thats how we can stop the Reapers.
Upload the complete Celine Dion collection and watch them die...

Or watch as they go into the Poutine Buisness.

Yeah, 'cause remember Mars Attacks?

[AresXX7]

Mallissin wrote...

I just noticed that the Cerberus logo looks like a vagina and the Alliance logo looks like the tip of a penis.

Just my two cents.

LOL

nice analogy there  

[Mallissin]

mosor wrote...

AriesXX7 wrote...

Cerberus gets labeled with this because:
A. they have xenophobes in their midsts - it is known, but not discriminated upon, by the organization (the not liking aspect)
B. they do not trust other species - they will use them, if necessary, but they won't put them into a key position of authority/control, for any mission(s) i.e. Shep's alien squadmates - they're nothing more than tools, being used to achieve success, on a mission (no long term affiliations afterwards).
C. they do want human dominance, not just coexistence ( the superiority aspect)

Replace Cerberus with the US government and aliens with Chinese nationals and all the statements you made still hold true. However only the fringe left would call the US government a racist institution.

No offense, but making political comments while defending a terrorist group in a fictional game might be seen as IRONIC AS HELL!

[AresXX7]

mosor wrote...

AriesXX7 wrote...

Cerberus gets labeled with this because:
A. they have xenophobes in their midsts - it is known, but not discriminated upon, by the organization (the not liking aspect)
B. they do not trust other species - they will use them, if necessary, but they won't put them into a key position of authority/control, for any mission(s) i.e. Shep's alien squadmates - they're nothing more than tools, being used to achieve success, on a mission (no long term affiliations afterwards).
C. they do want human dominance, not just coexistence ( the superiority aspect)

Replace Cerberus with the US government and aliens with Chinese nationals and all the statements you made still hold true. However only the fringe left would call the US government a racist institution.

I try not to use real life scenarios, as much as possible, with a video game, if I can - causes too much hate in the forum threads

[PWENER]

AriesXX7 wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

I just noticed that the Cerberus logo looks like a vagina and the Alliance logo looks like the tip of a penis.

Just my two cents.

LOL

nice analogy there  

The CHUCK approves...

Modifié par PWENER, 27 août 2010 - 12:58 .

[DPSSOC]

Moiaussi wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

...and you would support a canadian version of Cerberus?

a black ops organization that doesn't answer to your elected government, but to a single unelected individual who is accountable to no one?  a group that tortures canadian children and murders canadian soldiers/admirals?

...and why? canadian dominance of the world!

If they advocated Canadian ideals, Canadian dominance would involve peace through diplomacy, a lot of politeness, ice hockey for all, and coffee and doughnuts for everyone.

2 things.  First you left out the pancakes and maple syrup, shame on you.  Second it's just hockey.  I see this a lot with Americans and it boggles my mind.  "ice hockey" and "tuna fish"; now what other kind of tuna is there?  Honestly is there some kind of land tuna I'm unaware of?  You only need to specify a surface if it's something other than ice (road, floor, field, etc.).

Moiaussi wrote...
In reality, though, when we want to torture Canadians, we appearantly ship them off to Syria (or put on a Celine Dion concert).

Ha the joke's on you, we tuned out Celine Dion a long time ago.  Celine, Alannis, Shania, all of them completely useless in torturing us.

[Giggles_Manically]

There is also field hockey.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Moiaussi wrote...

Prince Keldar wrote...

Thats true.  Although I still do not like Cerberus you make some valid arguments.  

Don't worry, there are plenty of valid reasons to dislike Cerberus. Lack of accountability and degree of risks taken are the top two that come to mind.

It really irked me that there was no option to simply commandeer the shuttle from the Lazerus base. You end up agreeing to work with the Illusive Man before even confirming the Council have written you off, and you are given no option to convince the Council no matter how Paragon you are, or even what evidence you have found (such as the Collectors being Protheans, or the intact beacon).

^This.

[Moiaussi]

DPSSOC wrote...

2 things.  First you left out the pancakes and maple syrup, shame on you.  Second it's just hockey.  I see this a lot with Americans and it boggles my mind.  "ice hockey" and "tuna fish"; now what other kind of tuna is there?  Honestly is there some kind of land tuna I'm unaware of?  You only need to specify a surface if it's something other than ice (road, floor, field, etc.).

Shame on me? Maple syrup is also eastern US. There is also floor hockey and grass hockey.

"Tuna fish" bothers me a little... another one of those that bothers me is "arson fire."

Moiaussi wrote...

Ha the joke's on you, we tuned out Celine Dion a long time ago.  Celine, Alannis, Shania, all of them completely useless in torturing us.

Nah, Celine indoctrinated you. Hence her popularity in Vegas....

[mosor]

Mallissin wrote...

mosor wrote...

AriesXX7 wrote...

Cerberus gets labeled with this because:
A. they have xenophobes in their midsts - it is known, but not discriminated upon, by the organization (the not liking aspect)
B. they do not trust other species - they will use them, if necessary, but they won't put them into a key position of authority/control, for any mission(s) i.e. Shep's alien squadmates - they're nothing more than tools, being used to achieve success, on a mission (no long term affiliations afterwards).
C. they do want human dominance, not just coexistence ( the superiority aspect)

Replace Cerberus with the US government and aliens with Chinese nationals and all the statements you made still hold true. However only the fringe left would call the US government a racist institution.

No offense, but making political comments while defending a terrorist group in a fictional game might be seen as IRONIC AS HELL!

1. I don't see them as terrorist.
2. Cerberus hasn't done anything different than the US government has done in the past.
3. Bioware based most of these forms of governments and organizations on contemporary  human forms. I'm within my rights to make comparisons.
4. If the shoe fits, wear it.

Modifié par mosor, 27 août 2010 - 04:12 .

[Repzik]

DPSSOC wrote...

PWENER wrote...

Finally, people who think like I do. I don't agree with some of DPSSOC's statements though. Im with Cerberus, but they have done bad stuff and should take responsability.

I don't deny that some Cerberus actions are terrible (and apologies if I implied I do) but they are necessary.  Something a good friend of mine told me, and I've found it to be true to the day, "Necessity makes monsters of us all."

That's basically the beauty of this whole game. The whole point is to let people choose their morality and do what they believe is right.

IMO though, paragon (with a sprinkling of renegade) is my way to go. Shepard himself says my beliefs pretty well in both the first and second games:
"You don't know how other people will react, only how you will respond. In the end, that's all that really matters."

And in Mass Effect 2... "I won't let fear compromise who I am."

[Killjoy Cutter]

DPSSOC wrote...

2 things.  First you left out the pancakes and maple syrup, shame on you.  Second it's just hockey.  I see this a lot with Americans and it boggles my mind.  "ice hockey" and "tuna fish"; now what other kind of tuna is there?  Honestly is there some kind of land tuna I'm unaware of?  You only need to specify a surface if it's something other than ice (road, floor, field, etc.).

It's not that there are tuna that aren't fish, it's that there are fish that aren't tuna. 

And with all the versions of hockey that aren't ice, no big deal specifying which one you're talking about.  There are some American schools where field hockey is a BIG deal. 

[Mallissin]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
And with all the versions of hockey that aren't ice, no big deal specifying which one you're talking about.  There are some American schools where field hockey is a BIG deal. 

Mostly private women's schools. Around here we call field hockey LACROSSE! It's more manly, since we get to wear armor and beat people with metal sticks.

That's how America rolls, yo!

[Moiaussi]

Mallissin wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
And with all the versions of hockey that aren't ice, no big deal specifying which one you're talking about.  There are some American schools where field hockey is a BIG deal. 

Mostly private women's schools. Around here we call field hockey LACROSSE! It's more manly, since we get to wear armor and beat people with metal sticks.

That's how America rolls, yo!

Getting way off topic, but field hockey and lacrosse are only the same in that they both involve sticks and teams.... The sticks are very different though. Btw, not even heard of any men's field hockey leagues up here, but I have heard women's field hockey is a lot more viscious... all the beatings without the armour.