198 réponses à ce sujet

[Commander Maklai]

DPSSOC wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Now you condemn those actions but the fact is we have no idea what, if anything, came of those projects.  In order to determine whether or not Cerberus are working for the greater good or not we need to know what they've accomplished.  For example let's say Cerberus releases a virus on a population, 5,000 people die, but by studying the infected Cerberus is able to devlope a vaccine for this virus which saves millions.  In this scenario they are working for the greater good (can't make an omlette without cracking a few eggs), but if they got nothing out of it, or more importantly never intended to get anything out of it, then they're not.

Unfortunately we're not privy to the goals and success rate of Cerberus operation so we can only speculate, but so long as the average Cerberus project helps (and the rest intend to help) more people than it harms then they fall under the "working for the greater good" banner.

You are completely discounting the risk, and the fact that none of the experiments Shep encounters in ME1 were well contained. Cerberus unleashes a virus that kills an initial 5,000, but gets off world and kills 5 billion.

I disagree, I think, with the exception of the Rachni, all the experiments were remarkably well contained.

Moiaussi wrote...
Enough of the Thorian spores get off world to a garden world or two, and from there into general population and you have another Rachni or Krogan situation.

The spores are generated by the Thorian itself not the Creepers and none of the people we encounter on Nodacrux give any indication they're suffering from Thorian control.  Furthermore it's important to note that Nodacrux was an Exogeni project not Cerberus.  Cerberus may have gotten involved but that's different.  The only clear indication of Cerberus Thorian Creeper experiments is durring the assignment on Binthu where the Creepers are very clearly, and safely, contained until Shepard shows up and starts wrecking s***.

Moiaussi wrote...
The Rachni get themselves out and you have a second Rachni war.

Not really the Rachni need a Queen to breed and we find no evidence on any of the planets, or the station, where Rachni got loose.

Moiaussi wrote...
There is no evidence that subjecting people to thresher maw attack did anything other than kill those people. No clue what they were trying to test there other than possibly how to cover up murders better.

Learning how to treat Thresher Maw burns, does the acid spread, what's the rate of spread, how long do you have to treat it before the only option is amputation, lethality once it enters the bloodstream, etc.  It's crude science, it may even be bad science, but when dealing with the completely unknown you can't always be clean about it.

Moiaussi wrote...
They try to breed a better biotic and create a nigh psychopath.

There experiments are only anything other than complete disasters because someone less renegade comes along to clean them up.

I don't deny that many of the Cerberus projects we encounter are complete disasters but as I said we're not privy to all that information.  We have no idea how many successful operations Cerberus has run.  Furthermore we have no idea what other benefits came from these projects.

Let's look at Jack shall we.  Assuming the end goal was to create a super biotic, they succeeded but she proved unstable so we'll call it a failure.  Now that was their end goal but who knows what else they learned, what technology they developed, what training techniques they refined, etc.  We don't have enough information to write any Cerberus operation off as a total failure and we likely never will.  All we know is people keep funding them so chances are good they're doing something right.

Well a lot of people who are funding cerberus barely know a fraction of their activities otherwise most would pull their funding on the spot. And as for the jack thing, i don't really think the torturing of children can be justified by" We Were just trying to make a cool biotic..."

But i admit they did some good stuff too. Like bringing Shepard back!:happy:
And giving the illusive man cool eyes!

[Christmas Ape]

Well a lot of people who are funding Cerberus barely know a fraction of their activities otherwise most would pull their funding on the spot.

Cite?

[Habelo]

there is nothing wrong with racism mind you.



I am a genius and probaly the wisest man alive, and i say that racism is healthy for humanity.

[PWENER]

2 days and people are still dicussing this? Im glad to see Cerberus isn't getting the short end of the stick.

Modifié par PWENER, 29 août 2010 - 02:27 .

[BurningArmor]

In my mind, the entire issue boils down to TIM's "The end justifies the means" attitude in bringing humans to galactic dominance.  Look at all the all the humans and non-humans lost or killed in Cerberus experiments in ME1, ME2, and the books.  Not to mention all those humans and non-humans that have been left in fear of what Cerberus would do next.

Add to that the incompetent Cerberus scientists that push forward experiments they are not ready to do because they fear the loss of Cerberus funding.  Shepard has spent alot of time cleaning up after these idiots.

Even seeing Shepard successfully extend the occational olive branch failed to sway Tim.  His response was along the lines of, "It doesn't work if everyone already perceives you as an enemy."

To be fair, Cerberus did feel Shepard was such a means so they brought him back (4 Billion credits as well as a new ship and crew).  Although I must admit I'm thinking the Cerberus resupply will be a bit more restricted due to the destruction of the Collector Base and Cruiser, and selections in Overlord as TIM tries to rebuild.

[DPSSOC]

Commander Maklai wrote...
Well a lot of people who are funding cerberus barely know a fraction of their activities otherwise most would pull their funding on the spot.

Even if they don't know what their funding exactly they wouldn't keep funding it if they weren't getting a return, they wouldn't be getting a return unless most of Cerberus' operations yield positive results in excess of any collateral damage.  So in a situation like Overlord where you lose a lot of valuable people, equipment, and possibly have the whole project yield nothing of value, you either need a lot of small low-cost successes or one really big success; like a toilet seat that gives you a full body massage, while doing your taxes, and helping you lose weight all the while curing cancer.

Commander Maklai wrote...
And as for the jack thing, i don't really think the torturing of children can be justified by" We Were just trying to make a cool biotic..."

 
Certainly not, if that were their only justification.  However I think, "We're dealing with an alien organization that has access to these cool powers and has shown in the past they have no problem with genocide.  We really need to level the playing field."

I hate to keep coming back to this but it must be taken into consideration when looking at Cerberus; the Council do not play nice, they never have and never will, if you try to play nice you end up their servant.  If you outright refuse to play nice you end up at best like the Batarians and at worst like the Rachni.  Cerberus gives us the option for the Alliance to say, "Hey we're playing nice, but this small group refuses to hop on the band wagon."  It allows them to maintain the illusion of compliance while still pushing ahead.  Ultimately Cerberus is a resistance group, they act with impunity knowing the enemy can't retaliate against them directly and any retaliation against the general populace only strengthens their cause.

[Slayer299]

DPSSOC wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...
Are you saying that whatever the numbers of deaths as long as it is "beneficial" to humanity that whatever the final death-count is acceptable or that its acceptable as long as "everyone" didn't die?

 
Would it sound completely horrible if I said yes?  I know most of us think 100,000 or even 1 million is a lot of people and it is but let's put that into context.  At present there are over 6 billion human beings on earth.  That means if you were to kill of just 1% of our population it would be over 60 million.  That's close to the total death count of WW2 and it's insignificant.  Those 100,000 you mentioned would be less than 0.00167% of our total population, I consider that an acceptable loss.

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner, but to your reply;

It would sound horrible, yes, so then would would you consider an unacceptable death ratio then? Since it seems to be rather contradictory to say 'well it's only 1% of the population who died so think how we can save people now.'  And when the death toll hits 30% of that 1,000,000, is that still acceptable?
This is the same planet where you released the virus so it would spread in the first place and you could see what happen  

[DPSSOC]

Slayer299 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...
Are you saying that whatever the numbers of deaths as long as it is "beneficial" to humanity that whatever the final death-count is acceptable or that its acceptable as long as "everyone" didn't die?

 
Would it sound completely horrible if I said yes?  I know most of us think 100,000 or even 1 million is a lot of people and it is but let's put that into context.  At present there are over 6 billion human beings on earth.  That means if you were to kill of just 1% of our population it would be over 60 million.  That's close to the total death count of WW2 and it's insignificant.  Those 100,000 you mentioned would be less than 0.00167% of our total population, I consider that an acceptable loss.

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner, but to your reply;

It would sound horrible, yes,

 
So long as we're on the same page.

Slayer299 wrote...
so then would would you consider an unacceptable death ratio then? Since it seems to be rather contradictory to say 'well it's only 1% of the population who died so think how we can save people now.'  And when the death toll hits 30% of that 1,000,000, is that still acceptable?

 
Personally I'd draw the line at 33.333333333% maintaining a 2:1 aid ratio (you help at least twice as many people as you harm), but that's entirely arbitrary and one could certainly justify anything up to 49% (<1:1 so you're still helping more than you harm so still serving the greater good).

[ExtremeOne]

BurningArmor wrote...

In my mind, the entire issue boils down to TIM's "The end justifies the means" attitude in bringing humans to galactic dominance.  Look at all the all the humans and non-humans lost or killed in Cerberus experiments in ME1, ME2, and the books.  Not to mention all those humans and non-humans that have been left in fear of what Cerberus would do next.

Add to that the incompetent Cerberus scientists that push forward experiments they are not ready to do because they fear the loss of Cerberus funding.  Shepard has spent alot of time cleaning up after these idiots.

Even seeing Shepard successfully extend the occational olive branch failed to sway Tim.  His response was along the lines of, "It doesn't work if everyone already perceives you as an enemy."

To be fair, Cerberus did feel Shepard was such a means so they brought him back (4 Billion credits as well as a new ship and crew).  Although I must admit I'm thinking the Cerberus resupply will be a bit more restricted due to the destruction of the Collector Base and Cruiser, and selections in Overlord as TIM tries to rebuild.

  



you know what Cerberus is not racist to those of who understand their goals. Its the fact that too many on this forum by into the ME 1 story so much that they are not even willing to see what is happening in ME 2.  like i said you can call Cerberus racist if thats how you feel but make no mistake you better start looking at the racism that lies with in the Salarians and Quarians . because its clear they are pure racist . Cerberus has no problems working with aliens. TIM wants to help humanity not like the council who has a pure hatred for humans and is not shy about saying it. the alliance does not give a dam about humanity in ME 2.  

[Clover Rider]

ExtremeOne wrote...

BurningArmor wrote...

In my mind, the entire issue boils down to TIM's "The end justifies the means" attitude in bringing humans to galactic dominance.  Look at all the all the humans and non-humans lost or killed in Cerberus experiments in ME1, ME2, and the books.  Not to mention all those humans and non-humans that have been left in fear of what Cerberus would do next.

Add to that the incompetent Cerberus scientists that push forward experiments they are not ready to do because they fear the loss of Cerberus funding.  Shepard has spent alot of time cleaning up after these idiots.

Even seeing Shepard successfully extend the occational olive branch failed to sway Tim.  His response was along the lines of, "It doesn't work if everyone already perceives you as an enemy."

To be fair, Cerberus did feel Shepard was such a means so they brought him back (4 Billion credits as well as a new ship and crew).  Although I must admit I'm thinking the Cerberus resupply will be a bit more restricted due to the destruction of the Collector Base and Cruiser, and selections in Overlord as TIM tries to rebuild.

  



you know what Cerberus is not racist to those of who understand their goals. Its the fact that too many on this forum by into the ME 1 story so much that they are not even willing to see what is happening in ME 2.  like i said you can call Cerberus racist if thats how you feel but make no mistake you better start looking at the racism that lies with in the Salarians and Quarians . because its clear they are pure racist . Cerberus has no problems working with aliens. TIM wants to help humanity not like the council who has a pure hatred for humans and is not shy about saying it. the alliance does not give a dam about humanity in ME 2.  

No they are not :innocent:.

[Moiaussi]

DPSSOC wrote...

I disagree, I think, with the exception of the Rachni, all the experiments were remarkably well contained.

I seem to recall thorian creepers on quite a few worlds, and we know that Cerberus were experimenting with them.

The spores are generated by the Thorian itself not the Creepers and none of the people we encounter on Nodacrux give any indication they're suffering from Thorian control.  Furthermore it's important to note that Nodacrux was an Exogeni project not Cerberus.  Cerberus may have gotten involved but that's different.  The only clear indication of Cerberus Thorian Creeper experiments is durring the assignment on Binthu where the Creepers are very clearly, and safely, contained until Shepard shows up and starts wrecking s***.

Actually there are creepers on quite a few worlds, and Shep didn't bring them there. Also we know from ME2 that the survivers are still suffering after effects. It is not a given that they are 'clean' no matter what sensors say. The Thorian we met had survived millenia. What is the gestation rate for such a creature? How does it procreate and over what time period would it grow and mature?

No immediate blatently obvious danger does not mean a lack of danger.

Not really the Rachni need a Queen to breed and we find no evidence on any of the planets, or the station, where Rachni got loose.

Yes, because we got there and intervened. The security guards were losing. They hadn't slept in days and the Rachni were attriting them down. Benezia was indoctrinated and not thinking straight.

Learning how to treat Thresher Maw burns, does the acid spread, what's the rate of spread, how long do you have to treat it before the only option is amputation, lethality once it enters the bloodstream, etc.  It's crude science, it may even be bad science, but when dealing with the completely unknown you can't always be clean about it.

And that is uber important information, why? Tests can't be done with human substitutes, like pig flesh or even cloned flesh? How often are thresher maws an issue anyway? Shep takes how many down? They are used routinely to test Krogans as a right of passage....

What's next? Lets bombard Earth to see how a human capital can handle it, just in case aliens bombard Earth some day?

I don't deny that many of the Cerberus projects we encounter are complete disasters but as I said we're not privy to all that information.  We have no idea how many successful operations Cerberus has run.  Furthermore we have no idea what other benefits came from these projects.

That is like saying 'Stalin was probably a great guy because of all the nice things we didn't see him do.' It is nonsensical. Cerberus might be as you say, but simply assuming they are is nothing but blind faith.

Let's look at Jack shall we.  Assuming the end goal was to create a super biotic, they succeeded but she proved unstable so we'll call it a failure.  Now that was their end goal but who knows what else they learned, what technology they developed, what training techniques they refined, etc.  We don't have enough information to write any Cerberus operation off as a total failure and we likely never will.  All we know is people keep funding them so chances are good they're doing something right.

They abandoned the base, even though it is a perfectly functional facility. They didn't even recover or erase the researcher's recordings, or recover any equipment. That doesn't seem like they learned anything and they wasted considerable resources. Similarly, Lazarus base was seemingly abandoned over a few mechs that they should have been able to shut down from the central mech control, or worst case, eliminate. Again, that is not competence.

They should know about indoctrination, but don't run any controls regarding the reaper corpse, like rotating at least some of people out or properly monitoring the situation.

(A lot of that could just be cheesy writing, but a poorly written group is not a group one wants to support either )

[Cra5y Pineapple]

Inthatplace wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

The OP can drop the ball to the visitors of this forum, but in fact BioWare portraits Cerberus as a "pro-human" organization and gives it an aura similar to racist organizations in our society. That's a given. So, I don't understand what the OP is trying to achieve here.

Pro-human does not mean anti-alien.

I like this human! He understands!

Cerberus and TIM get more crap than they deserve in my opinion. Maybe just speaking as someone who forgot to do the annoying side-missions in ME1. Sure, they may have questionable methods but they get the job done. I wouldn't trust them since in a way they are still deceitful bastards but they aren't going to turn on me like over 9000 fan-fictions seem to think. TIM is just trying to be friendly and clean up his reputation. Give Itty-bitty little TIMmy a chance.

What concerns me is usually the only reason people hate TIM/destroy the base is because they're like "zOmg we mus stik it 2 da man!11one1!1"
For the record, I saved the base. Not for Cerberus but simply because it's the best way we can find out about the Reapers and their weaknesses because without it we're kinda screwed.

[EvilTyger]

I destroyed the base because Cerebus has a terrible track record, and I didn't want to clean up the mess. Again. Rachni, Creeper, Thresher Maw, and Husk experiments. Jack's experiments. Overlord. Reaper IFF. And the ones that have the most to them, they all talk about how they'll be forgiven all the crap they did as long as they succeed. The thing is, cutting corners and trying to rush things is the fastest way to fail.

[Sparda Stonerule]

I don't particularly hate Cerberus, but I don't want to take orders from them. If you save the base TIM is still calling the shots for Shepard. If you destroy it TIM has to either join you, or get out of your way (or fight you but I seriously doubt that will happen). I know they did terrible experiments, but it seems to me that they were attempting to do good things but wanted results too quickly so they messed up pretty bad. I don't even think they are anti alien. Well I am fairly certain TIM, the Lazerus cell, and the Normandy team aren't. Sure Cerberus may have members who hate aliens, but putting aliens down isn't their line.



That being said I don't really like them, I just sort of understand them. I don't agree with some of their methods, but when they are the only group who is seriously preparing for the Reapers, they begin to look just a bit better. Not much, but at least they are not thrusting their head in the sand.

[Ieldra]

Cra5y Pineapple wrote...

Inthatplace wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

The OP can drop the ball to the visitors of this forum, but in fact BioWare portraits Cerberus as a "pro-human" organization and gives it an aura similar to racist organizations in our society. That's a given. So, I don't understand what the OP is trying to achieve here.

Pro-human does not mean anti-alien.

I like this human! He understands!

Cerberus and TIM get more crap than they deserve in my opinion. Maybe just speaking as someone who forgot to do the annoying side-missions in ME1. Sure, they may have questionable methods but they get the job done. I wouldn't trust them since in a way they are still deceitful bastards but they aren't going to turn on me like over 9000 fan-fictions seem to think. TIM is just trying to be friendly and clean up his reputation. Give Itty-bitty little TIMmy a chance.

What concerns me is usually the only reason people hate TIM/destroy the base is because they're like "zOmg we mus stik it 2 da man!11one1!1"
For the record, I saved the base. Not for Cerberus but simply because it's the best way we can find out about the Reapers and their weaknesses because without it we're kinda screwed.

QFT.

I take the risk of a Cerberus dictatorship over the risk of galaxy-wide genocide every single time. Destroying the base is the single biggest mistake from any reasonable strategic viewpoint, and people only do it because they know Bioware won't put any kinks in their super-idealistic storyline.

One of my biggest wishes for ME3 is drastic consequences for both decisions, no "you can have the cake and eat it" as I'm sure we'll get. Keep the base, and there'll be Cerberus-like human domination for 200 years. Destroy it, and humanity gets the really short end of the stick: Earth and the biggest 20 colonies will be destroyed because a means against the Reaper attack can't be found until it's almost too late, leaving the pitiful rests as a Council protectorate for the foreseeable future. I wonder how many would stick to their "destroy the base" decision then.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 août 2010 - 01:46 .

[Arcadionn]

Not sure which US intelligence agency said this but it resembled the following : "you will not hear of our successes only our failures".



A lot of people - including myself - see Cerberus as bad and what not... but we know only of their failures (for one because we caused a few of them )



I doubt all their operations are known, and that can be a good or bad thing. Maybe they do more good than we think. But that would be for Bioware to develop on. Speculation is not truth and we don't know the full story I'm sure.



Hell, some of you play pure renegade characters but still say you destroyed the base because Cerberus is dangerous. If you really played 100% or close renegade; it means you did things that are almost as bad as what you blame cerberus of doing (ie Rachni Queen on Noveria).



I'll try to do a playthrough more friendly to Cerberus. See how things unfold and what difference it makes in dialogue.



@Ieldra2

I like your "cake and eat it" segment. Quite truthful that we have yet to see such drastic consequences apart from the loyalty/ship upgrade endings of ME2.

ME3 should expose the culmination of all these decision triggers into such severe events.

[Nightwriter]

DPSSOC wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...
Are you saying that whatever the numbers of deaths as long as it is "beneficial" to humanity that whatever the final death-count is acceptable or that its acceptable as long as "everyone" didn't die?

 
Would it sound completely horrible if I said yes?  I know most of us think 100,000 or even 1 million is a lot of people and it is but let's put that into context.  At present there are over 6 billion human beings on earth.  That means if you were to kill of just 1% of our population it would be over 60 million.  That's close to the total death count of WW2 and it's insignificant.  Those 100,000 you mentioned would be less than 0.00167% of our total population, I consider that an acceptable loss.

Everything seems justifiable when you're speaking in hypotheticals and percentages. Which is all Cerberus does.

It's true that sacrificing a million to save 6 billion could be justifiable, but you will almost never encounter a situation where such a sacrifice would be plausible or even necessary.

Most of the time there's a perfectly reasonable way to do good without sacrificing a million people. Cerberus is at fault because they never look for those other ways.

[Lewie]

Cra5y Pineapple wrote...

Inthatplace wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

The OP can drop the ball to the visitors of this forum, but in fact BioWare portraits Cerberus as a "pro-human" organization and gives it an aura similar to racist organizations in our society. That's a given. So, I don't understand what the OP is trying to achieve here.

Pro-human does not mean anti-alien.

I like this human! He understands!

Cerberus and TIM get more crap than they deserve in my opinion. Maybe just speaking as someone who forgot to do the annoying side-missions in ME1. Sure, they may have questionable methods but they get the job done. I wouldn't trust them since in a way they are still deceitful bastards but they aren't going to turn on me like over 9000 fan-fictions seem to think. TIM is just trying to be friendly and clean up his reputation. Give Itty-bitty little TIMmy a chance.

What concerns me is usually the only reason people hate TIM/destroy the base is because they're like "zOmg we mus stik it 2 da man!11one1!1"
For the record, I saved the base. Not for Cerberus but simply because it's the best way we can find out about the Reapers and their weaknesses because without it we're kinda screwed.

Cerebrus are paying their dues they brought this on themselves. Their organisations methods spread this animosity in the first place. Saying ok cerberus doesn't hate aliens is fair enough you have a crew that is mixed, but the the fact that Veetor was tortured if you hand him over, shows that their ways haven't changed. Then if you think of the ripple effect TIM isn't exactly returning the olive branch he mentioned sending Veetor back in that way just spreads even more hate for cerberus from the quarian race. That's not exactly cleaning things up. TIM is too backhanded i wouldn't trust him as far as i could throw him.

Its only a game anyway, i have the normandy, my crew and i will wipe out the reapers

[HTTP 404]

there is such thing as ethnocentrism which is like racism but nationalistic superiority over others. It is a very extreme version of patroitism



http://en.wikipedia....i/Ethnocentrism

[EvilTyger]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I take the risk of a Cerberus dictatorship over the risk of galaxy-wide genocide every single time. Destroying the base is the single biggest mistake from any reasonable strategic viewpoint, and people only do it because they know Bioware won't put any kinks in their super-idealistic storyline.

I figured that not taking better precautions to study an almost intact, innactive, Reaper that resulted in the indoctrination of the entire team and total loss of data was the single biggest mistake.

[Asheer_Khan]

Once i posted two videos comparing Veetor's appearance in Tali's L-mission.

One was in case when Shepard allowed him to return to Flotilla with Tali and second after cerberus "medical care"... of course cerberus related video was petty much dismissed by pro cerberus people as evidence that he was tortured and his behavior was explained by side effect of damaging his enviro-suit.



But what amazed me after this debate was conclusion that cerberus was able to reviving dead Shepard but he was powerless when comes to fix Veetor's suit... ironic isn't it?

[Burdokva]

Cra5y Pineapple wrote...

What concerns me is usually the only reason people hate TIM/destroy the base is because they're like "zOmg we mus stik it 2 da man!11one1!1" 
For the record, I saved the base. Not for Cerberus but simply because it's the best way we can find out about the Reapers and their weaknesses because without it we're kinda screwed.

Contrary to what you did, I destroyed the Collector base. Be it TIM or somebody else, I'm pretty sure sooner or later would use it to design their own pseudo-Reaper super starships (although I would rather gloat if it happened to be, say, the Turian or Salarian Cerberus-analogue). What bothers me is whether or not I'll have the option to be pro-Cerberus after I destroyed the base (or pro-Alliance if I kept it) or does this decision override others?

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Once i posted two videos comparing Veetor's appearance in Tali's L-mission.
One was in case when Shepard allowed him to return to Flotilla with Tali and second after cerberus "medical care"... of course cerberus related video was petty much dismissed by pro cerberus people as evidence that he was tortured and his behavior was explained by side effect of damaging his enviro-suit.

But what amazed me after this debate was conclusion that cerberus was able to reviving dead Shepard but he was powerless when comes to fix Veetor's suit... ironic isn't it?

You're telling me that if a whole colony of hundreds of thousands of people disappeared and there's a single witness he won't be interrogated, even with torture? To believe that every single nation today on Earth, regardless of political, ethnic or social structure would not use such methods in that situation is just burring your head in the sand. The Alliance would do the same had they got him, you can bet on that. As would any other races in the Mass Effect settings if it was their colony, including the Quarians themselves.

[RiouHotaru]

Ieldra2 wrote...

QFT.

I take the risk of a Cerberus dictatorship over the risk of galaxy-wide genocide every single time. Destroying the base is the single biggest mistake from any reasonable strategic viewpoint, and people only do it because they know Bioware won't put any kinks in their super-idealistic storyline.

One of my biggest wishes for ME3 is drastic consequences for both decisions, no "you can have the cake and eat it" as I'm sure we'll get. Keep the base, and there'll be Cerberus-like human domination for 200 years. Destroy it, and humanity gets the really short end of the stick: Earth and the biggest 20 colonies will be destroyed because a means against the Reaper attack can't be found until it's almost too late, leaving the pitiful rests as a Council protectorate for the foreseeable future. I wonder how many would stick to their "destroy the base" decision then.

They can't do this.  Why?  Because Bioware HAS to make the ending a satisfying one for all potential players.  Your endings are more Bittersweet Endings, which are certainly applicible endings, but Bioware HAS to offer endings where players can, yes "have their cake and eat it too".  Doesn't mean they can't make you do a LOT of work for it.  But they do have to make it possible.

[Asheer_Khan]

Burdokva wrote...

Cra5y Pineapple wrote...

What concerns me is usually the only reason people hate TIM/destroy the base is because they're like "zOmg we mus stik it 2 da man!11one1!1" 
For the record, I saved the base. Not for Cerberus but simply because it's the best way we can find out about the Reapers and their weaknesses because without it we're kinda screwed.

Contrary to what you did, I destroyed the Collector base. Be it TIM or somebody else, I'm pretty sure sooner or later would use it to design their own pseudo-Reaper super starships (although I would rather gloat if it happened to be, say, the Turian or Salarian Cerberus-analogue). What bothers me is whether or not I'll have the option to be pro-Cerberus after I destroyed the base (or pro-Alliance if I kept it) or does this decision override others?

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Once i posted two videos comparing Veetor's appearance in Tali's L-mission.
One was in case when Shepard allowed him to return to Flotilla with Tali and second after cerberus "medical care"... of course cerberus related video was petty much dismissed by pro cerberus people as evidence that he was tortured and his behavior was explained by side effect of damaging his enviro-suit.

But what amazed me after this debate was conclusion that cerberus was able to reviving dead Shepard but he was powerless when comes to fix Veetor's suit... ironic isn't it?

You're telling me that if a whole colony of hundreds of thousands of people disappeared and there's a single witness he won't be interrogated, even with torture? To believe that every single nation today on Earth, regardless of political, ethnic or social structure would not use such methods in that situation is just burring your head in the sand. The Alliance would do the same had they got him, you can bet on that. As would any other races in the Mass Effect settings if it was their colony, including the Quarians themselves.

God... this slowly start to be ridiculous....

Tell me... WHAT ELSE you could learn from traumatized because of already damaged E-suit Quarian over what he registered from secuity cameras?
It's not like Veetor walked around colony during attack and have oportunity to closely observing how Collectors packed colonists to pods.

No... if there was some informations cerberus want extract from him then they were absolutely unrelated to events on Freedoms Progrees.<_< and that's why i never let them lays thier claws on him...

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This thread is like discussing politics. No one will change each other's minds about arguing point of view especially on an Inter Web Forum