198 réponses à ce sujet

[Sajuro]

mosor wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
If humanity loses just Earth, it goes virtually extinct.

Um, no.  A species doesn't need all that many members to be viable. It's dependent on a variety of factors, but it can go down to triple (and sometimes even double) digits and still be perfectly recoverable: northern elephant seals, for example.  Humanity would simply become a minority.  Still more numerous than the drell, however.

So, yeah, a  "mere" breeding population numbering in the millions is way more than enough for humanity to keep going.  So too would one in the hundreds of thousands be, or the tens of thousands, or....

Bah, the only future that appeals to are human haters and self loathing human xenophiles. Dean has a point, you swore an oath to the systems alliance to protect humanity. You didn't make any oath as a spectre. To decimate humanity so aliens can be spared  is treasonous if there are other avenues to gain victory.

I don't hate humans, nor do I hate myself (I have a good self image as bleeding heart liberal) though I do love Aliens, since each alien life is just as important as a human life. Spectres have a responsibility to preserve galactic stability which takes precedence over any loyalty to the Alliance, and letting most of the galaxy die just so the local cluster will be spared doesn't support stability.

[Lewie]

ExtremeOne wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

mosor wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...


QFT.

I take the risk of a Cerberus dictatorship over the risk of galaxy-wide genocide every single time. Destroying the base is the single biggest mistake from any reasonable strategic viewpoint, and people only do it because they know Bioware won't put any kinks in their super-idealistic storyline.

One of my biggest wishes for ME3 is drastic consequences for both decisions, no "you can have the cake and eat it" as I'm sure we'll get. Keep the base, and there'll be Cerberus-like human domination for 200 years. Destroy it, and humanity gets the really short end of the stick: Earth and the biggest 20 colonies will be destroyed because a means against the Reaper attack can't be found until it's almost too late, leaving the pitiful rests as a Council protectorate for the foreseeable future. I wonder how many would stick to their "destroy the base" decision then.

I would still stick to my choice to destroy the base, because the moment we joined the citadel race our fates (like it or not) became intertwined with theirs and we are part of the same galaxy. The Reaper threat isn't just about preserving one race, it is about the galaxy coming together to end that damned cycle once and for all. The same goes for if I have to choose between sacrificing the local cluster (where earth is) or having multiple races absolutely devastated, I'll sacrafice the local cluster everytime. I know people are going to say "Gaw! That's not how the real world works, countries will cell eachother out :pinched:" But I know a wise man once said "Be the change you want to see in the world" and the change I want to see is where species are less centered on who is dominating and are banded together for the good of the galaxy.

Bah, glad you're not in charge of my fate. I'd sooner burn the entire galaxy if the local cluster could be saved. Sorry but sentencing your own people to extinction so you can prevent some alien worlds from being devestated is pretty damn treasonous. If aliens want to prevent their worlds from being devestated, then they should step up and help defend against the threat. However, I'm not going to sacrifice billions of innocent humans just so alien civilizations can continue.

As for being the change you want to see. Only self hating humans would want their world destroyed so the turians, asari and salarians could live happy prosperous lives by not making any sacrifices themselves to stop the reapers.

I didn't say I wanted earth to be destroyed, I said it would sacrifice it for the good of the galaxy. I don't get the line of arguement that anyone who doesn't obey TIM must  be a traitor or hate humanity though.
Fun Fact: Letting the rest of the galaxy get destroyed rather than sacrificing Local Cluster would probably be more likely to result in the extinction of humanity along with every one else.

   


I do not get you ME 1 fans you act as if the alliance is the only thing that matters. well the reality is they turned their back on Shepard and Anderson sent spies to spy on him or her. basically in so many words they don't give a dam about him or her. all the so called council cares about is you working with Cerberus and the hate that more then they do being 3 racist clowns . as far as My Shepards goes everyone in the alliance is a enemy of mine and will be destroyed if they get in My way. Cerberus brought Shepard back and gave him / her a new ship and said go and destroy the reapers and collectors . I'm pro human but  i have no problems with aliens . I like Garrus , Grunt , Legion , they are aliens 

Its not about being an ME1 fan, i have based my playthrough on both games but i still don''t trust cerberus (big time), i don't trust the alliance fully either. As for TIM bringing me back, it wasn't my choice i don't owe him anything the guilt cards he plays don't work.

[mosor]

Sajuro wrote...


I don't hate humans, nor do I hate myself (I have a good self image as bleeding heart liberal) though I do love Aliens, since each alien life is just as important as a human life. Spectres have a responsibility to preserve galactic stability which takes precedence over any loyalty to the Alliance, and letting most of the galaxy die just so the local cluster will be spared doesn't support stability.

No, if you're willing to sacrifice the local cluster to save aliens the horrors of war, then clearly you value alien lives more so than human life. I'm the opposite, but I'm family oriented, and I protect family.

As for galactic stability, it depends on your defintion of stability. If you're the last man standing, I'm pretty sure you'll have plenty of peaceful stability.  Besides, who says being a spectre takes precedence?

Modifié par mosor, 31 août 2010 - 02:48 .

[Tyrael02]

louise101 wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

mosor wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...


QFT.

I take the risk of a Cerberus dictatorship over the risk of galaxy-wide genocide every single time. Destroying the base is the single biggest mistake from any reasonable strategic viewpoint, and people only do it because they know Bioware won't put any kinks in their super-idealistic storyline.

One of my biggest wishes for ME3 is drastic consequences for both decisions, no "you can have the cake and eat it" as I'm sure we'll get. Keep the base, and there'll be Cerberus-like human domination for 200 years. Destroy it, and humanity gets the really short end of the stick: Earth and the biggest 20 colonies will be destroyed because a means against the Reaper attack can't be found until it's almost too late, leaving the pitiful rests as a Council protectorate for the foreseeable future. I wonder how many would stick to their "destroy the base" decision then.

I would still stick to my choice to destroy the base, because the moment we joined the citadel race our fates (like it or not) became intertwined with theirs and we are part of the same galaxy. The Reaper threat isn't just about preserving one race, it is about the galaxy coming together to end that damned cycle once and for all. The same goes for if I have to choose between sacrificing the local cluster (where earth is) or having multiple races absolutely devastated, I'll sacrafice the local cluster everytime. I know people are going to say "Gaw! That's not how the real world works, countries will cell eachother out :pinched:" But I know a wise man once said "Be the change you want to see in the world" and the change I want to see is where species are less centered on who is dominating and are banded together for the good of the galaxy.

Bah, glad you're not in charge of my fate. I'd sooner burn the entire galaxy if the local cluster could be saved. Sorry but sentencing your own people to extinction so you can prevent some alien worlds from being devestated is pretty damn treasonous. If aliens want to prevent their worlds from being devestated, then they should step up and help defend against the threat. However, I'm not going to sacrifice billions of innocent humans just so alien civilizations can continue.

As for being the change you want to see. Only self hating humans would want their world destroyed so the turians, asari and salarians could live happy prosperous lives by not making any sacrifices themselves to stop the reapers.

I didn't say I wanted earth to be destroyed, I said it would sacrifice it for the good of the galaxy. I don't get the line of arguement that anyone who doesn't obey TIM must  be a traitor or hate humanity though.
Fun Fact: Letting the rest of the galaxy get destroyed rather than sacrificing Local Cluster would probably be more likely to result in the extinction of humanity along with every one else.

   


I do not get you ME 1 fans you act as if the alliance is the only thing that matters. well the reality is they turned their back on Shepard and Anderson sent spies to spy on him or her. basically in so many words they don't give a dam about him or her. all the so called council cares about is you working with Cerberus and the hate that more then they do being 3 racist clowns . as far as My Shepards goes everyone in the alliance is a enemy of mine and will be destroyed if they get in My way. Cerberus brought Shepard back and gave him / her a new ship and said go and destroy the reapers and collectors . I'm pro human but  i have no problems with aliens . I like Garrus , Grunt , Legion , they are aliens 

Its not about being an ME1 fan, i have based my playthrough on both games but i still don''t trust cerberus (big time), i don't trust the alliance fully either. As for TIM bringing me back, it wasn't my choice i don't owe him anything the guilt cards he plays don't work.

I'm with ExtremeOne on this one.... the Alliance had their chance and they showed their true colours... so really they arent any worse than Cerberus in their vicious adherence to human dominance in any shape or form (That is, the political stance the Alliance chose to take on Shepard's death). The Council is the same deal, they refuse to verify the reaper threat in light of the evidence that is put foward and for what it's worth, in my playthrough, my Shepard blew up the base, said **** off to the council, and will (given the option) deal with Cerberus and/or the council if the situation warrants it. There's no way I'd hand the Collector base to TIM; The question here is the benefit of the doubt, and TIM has proven that he would use any means necessary to establish human dominance throught the galaxy during and after the reaper threat, which COMPLETELY underminds Shepard in his attempt to recruit the sapient races of the galaxy in one last moment of united defiance against the reapers. While i agree that BioWare may make the plot too idealistic in that there are no repercussions in destroying technology that could have been adapted to fight the reapers, we must work with what we are given. However, I do hope BioWare seriously considers what destroying the base or handing the base to TIM means for ME3. Any thoughts?

Modifié par Tyrael02, 31 août 2010 - 02:55 .

[Dean_the_Young]

didymos1120 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
If humanity loses just Earth, it goes virtually extinct.

Um, no.  A species doesn't need all that many members to be viable. It's dependent on a variety of factors, but it can go down to triple (and sometimes even double) digits and still be perfectly recoverable: northern elephant seals, for example.  Humanity would simply become a minority.  Still more numerous than the drell, however.

So, yeah, a  "mere" breeding population numbering in the millions is way more than enough for humanity to keep going.  So too would one in the hundreds of thousands be, or the tens of thousands, or....

Did I not say there would be a breeding population?

99.8% of humanity, though, is far more than just population extinction: it's the permanent loss of virtually all human society, culture, and identity, in humanity and in the galaxy. The only comparison would be how much remains of the Quarian race after the Morning War.

[Dean_the_Young]

Sajuro wrote...

mosor wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
If humanity loses just Earth, it goes virtually extinct.

Um, no.  A species doesn't need all that many members to be viable. It's dependent on a variety of factors, but it can go down to triple (and sometimes even double) digits and still be perfectly recoverable: northern elephant seals, for example.  Humanity would simply become a minority.  Still more numerous than the drell, however.

So, yeah, a  "mere" breeding population numbering in the millions is way more than enough for humanity to keep going.  So too would one in the hundreds of thousands be, or the tens of thousands, or....

Bah, the only future that appeals to are human haters and self loathing human xenophiles. Dean has a point, you swore an oath to the systems alliance to protect humanity. You didn't make any oath as a spectre. To decimate humanity so aliens can be spared  is treasonous if there are other avenues to gain victory.

I don't hate humans, nor do I hate myself (I have a good self image as bleeding heart liberal) though I do love Aliens, since each alien life is just as important as a human life. Spectres have a responsibility to preserve galactic stability which takes precedence over any loyalty to the Alliance, and letting most of the galaxy die just so the local cluster will be spared doesn't support stability.

I don't think the expresion 'tool' could ever be more applicable. 'Useful idiot,' perhaps, though that's fallen into the dust bin of history for the moment. It certainly reads just like a Council propoganda poster, citing all sorts of noble ideals that the Council has never gotten around to representing on their part.

Why is it that Paragons are the only people in the galaxy who believe in what the Council preaches?

[Lewie]

Tyrael02 wrote...

louise101 wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

mosor wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...


QFT.

I take the risk of a Cerberus dictatorship over the risk of galaxy-wide genocide every single time. Destroying the base is the single biggest mistake from any reasonable strategic viewpoint, and people only do it because they know Bioware won't put any kinks in their super-idealistic storyline.

One of my biggest wishes for ME3 is drastic consequences for both decisions, no "you can have the cake and eat it" as I'm sure we'll get. Keep the base, and there'll be Cerberus-like human domination for 200 years. Destroy it, and humanity gets the really short end of the stick: Earth and the biggest 20 colonies will be destroyed because a means against the Reaper attack can't be found until it's almost too late, leaving the pitiful rests as a Council protectorate for the foreseeable future. I wonder how many would stick to their "destroy the base" decision then.

I would still stick to my choice to destroy the base, because the moment we joined the citadel race our fates (like it or not) became intertwined with theirs and we are part of the same galaxy. The Reaper threat isn't just about preserving one race, it is about the galaxy coming together to end that damned cycle once and for all. The same goes for if I have to choose between sacrificing the local cluster (where earth is) or having multiple races absolutely devastated, I'll sacrafice the local cluster everytime. I know people are going to say "Gaw! That's not how the real world works, countries will cell eachother out :pinched:" But I know a wise man once said "Be the change you want to see in the world" and the change I want to see is where species are less centered on who is dominating and are banded together for the good of the galaxy.

Bah, glad you're not in charge of my fate. I'd sooner burn the entire galaxy if the local cluster could be saved. Sorry but sentencing your own people to extinction so you can prevent some alien worlds from being devestated is pretty damn treasonous. If aliens want to prevent their worlds from being devestated, then they should step up and help defend against the threat. However, I'm not going to sacrifice billions of innocent humans just so alien civilizations can continue.

As for being the change you want to see. Only self hating humans would want their world destroyed so the turians, asari and salarians could live happy prosperous lives by not making any sacrifices themselves to stop the reapers.

I didn't say I wanted earth to be destroyed, I said it would sacrifice it for the good of the galaxy. I don't get the line of arguement that anyone who doesn't obey TIM must  be a traitor or hate humanity though.
Fun Fact: Letting the rest of the galaxy get destroyed rather than sacrificing Local Cluster would probably be more likely to result in the extinction of humanity along with every one else.

   


I do not get you ME 1 fans you act as if the alliance is the only thing that matters. well the reality is they turned their back on Shepard and Anderson sent spies to spy on him or her. basically in so many words they don't give a dam about him or her. all the so called council cares about is you working with Cerberus and the hate that more then they do being 3 racist clowns . as far as My Shepards goes everyone in the alliance is a enemy of mine and will be destroyed if they get in My way. Cerberus brought Shepard back and gave him / her a new ship and said go and destroy the reapers and collectors . I'm pro human but  i have no problems with aliens . I like Garrus , Grunt , Legion , they are aliens 

Its not about being an ME1 fan, i have based my playthrough on both games but i still don''t trust cerberus (big time), i don't trust the alliance fully either. As for TIM bringing me back, it wasn't my choice i don't owe him anything the guilt cards he plays don't work.

I'm with ExtremeOne on this one.... the Alliance had their chance and they showed their true colours... so really they arent any worse than Cerberus in their vicious adherence to human dominance in any shape or form (That is, the political stance the Alliance chose to take on Shepard's death). The Council is the same deal, they refuse to verify the reaper threat in light of the evidence that is put foward and for what it's worth, in my playthrough, my Shepard blew up the base, said **** off to the council, and will (given the option) deal with Cerberus and/or the council if the situation warrants it. There's no way I'd hand the Collector base to TIM; The question here is the benefit of the doubt, and TIM has proven that he would use any means necessary to establish human dominance throught the galaxy during and after the reaper threat, which COMPLETELY underminds Shepard in his attempt to recruit the sapient races of the galaxy in one last moment of united defiance against the reapers. While i agree that BioWare may make the plot too idealistic in that there are no repercussions in destroying technology that could have been adapted to fight the reapers, we must work with what we are given. However, I do hope BioWare seriously considers what destroying the base or handing the base to TIM means for ME3. Any thoughts?

My own choice not to trust either doesn't matter i question both the alliance and cerberus and don't trust either fully. Yes the alliance is all politics (though not as much in the first one) and cerberus is all sod the alliance we do it right (in the second one). When i start 3 i still don't know who im 'supposed' to support but ill decide when the time comes i don't make clear cut decisions that easily. For now they can both f*** off. Lol.

[Sajuro]

Just because the council doesn't live up to it isn't a reason we should, or are you saying that humans aren't better than aliens who can't follow their own ideals?

[thetruefreemo]

Racism just means preferring one race to another or not liking one race compared to others. It's simple. Cerberus prefers humans, making them racist.

[Dean_the_Young]

Sajuro wrote...

Just because the council doesn't live up to it isn't a reason we should, or are you saying that humans aren't better than aliens who can't follow their own ideals?

I have never seen reason to sacrifice the lives of others in the name of ideals that conveniently serve the political interests of those who have never abided by them.

The Council's ideals benefit the Council first and foremost when other people follow them. This would not be so egregious except that the Council does not follow their own ideals. If the Council does not follow them, then there is no reason for anyone else to do so  and so serve the Council's. To do so is to blindly follow the self-serving platitudes of others to one's own harm.

Certainly I have never been a believer in the idea that self-harm in the name other people's non-standards should be considered admirable. I do not, for example, give to a charity run by a known con man simply to prove I am more generous than he is.

[mosor]

thetruefreemo wrote...

Racism just means preferring one race to another or not liking one race compared to others. It's simple. Cerberus prefers humans, making them racist.

Geez, talk about watering down the defitniton of racism. If it's mere preference, then everyone is a racist in a way.

[Sajuro]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Just because the council doesn't live up to it isn't a reason we should, or are you saying that humans aren't better than aliens who can't follow their own ideals?

I have never seen reason to sacrifice the lives of others in the name of ideals that conveniently serve the political interests of those who have never abided by them.

The Council's ideals benefit the Council first and foremost when other people follow them. This would not be so egregious except that the Council does not follow their own ideals. If the Council does not follow them, then there is no reason for anyone else to do so  and so serve the Council's. To do so is to blindly follow the self-serving platitudes of others to one's own harm.

Certainly I have never been a believer in the idea that self-harm in the name other people's non-standards should be considered admirable. I do not, for example, give to a charity run by a known con man simply to prove I am more generous than he is.

Not the analogy I was going for Dean, I was talking about taking the higher road but regardless. I revert back to my point that as a Spectre my Shepard will promote the stability of the galaxy as a whole, and as someone who talks about sacrifices for the greater good would you say 11 billion lives for trillions of lives is a good deal?

[adriano_c]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

When people say racist...

class post

[lovgreno]

When it comes to a threat of the magnitude of the reapers you need all the guns and resources you can get. Cerberus very small resources (that usualy blows up in their own face) might not be enough you know. You got to act like a adult and swallow your pride to work for a common good with the aliens if you want humanity to survive.

It's anyones right to think whatever they want about aliens and promote their own spiecies interests. However to lessen humanitys chances of survival just because you dislike aliens is not very tactical and rather selfish. In many wars the one with the most and strongest allies wins.

Cerberus and their human dominance agenda is a political liability Shepard can't afford.

[Moiaussi]

DPSSOC wrote...

So was Exogeni.  Unless you have proof (say from the books which I have not read or something I simply missed in game) that Cerberus is Exogeni then it's just as likely that Exogeni was screwing around with Thorians, Cerberus had an agent in Exogeni who saw the potential, Cerberus took steps to acquire some creepers, Cerberus took Creepers to Binthu.  I would further request that if possible you (or anyone) list these worlds as I only recall seeing Creepers on Feros (where they're from), Nodacrux (Exogeni research facility), and Binthu (Cerberus research facility).

I stand corrected on the source of the Creepers, however I missed the fact that on Chasca they converted a colony to husks as an experiment.

Noveria, Binary Helix, Saren - not Cerberus.

Unless you know of another Queen (and the Novarian Queen couldn't hear any other queens), where did Cerebus get their Rachni? Likewise, where did they get the husk experiment data? There is an implied link between Cerberus and Saren that is currently unexplained.

Yes and no.  You could but those won't give you truly accurate results.  There's only one way to truly see how Thresher Maw venom/acid affects a live human being, subject a live human being to Thresher venom/acid.  Anything else requires extrapolation and assumption which results in error.

Right, so we should engage in mass executions of random people because we can't tell how we react to mass executions of random people without doing so? Does the term psychopath mean anything to you? It is questionable even to run such tests on willing volunteers. On stangers, it is called terrorism.

How many civillian personnel, hell how many military personnel have access to the firepower Shepard walks around with.  On top of that it's pointed out numerous times that Shepard is special, elite, unique; the exception rather than the rule.

You didn't answer the question. How often do civilians run into these things without being able to avoid them? There are plenty of remote means that could be used to find them safely. You really support the concept of deliberately killing and wounding people just to save people from situations that should be avoidable?

Yes and they haven't managed to kill one since Wrex's run at it (and he's how old).  Furthermore how many humans have the regenerative capabilities or redundant systems a Krogan does?

You are missing the point utterly. You don't win that stage of the rite by killing the thresher maw. You win by surviving it. Since it cannot come up under the central platform and there is plenty of cover via the ramp, simple survival is trivial. Killing it or even attempting to kill it is gutsy and risky, but entirely optional. If it was otherwise, then every Krogan coming of age since Wrex would have died. Given current Krogan reproductive issues that would make for a very problematic test.

Nah I'm pretty sure we've tested that out long before we even encountered alien life.  Heck self-anihilation seems to be our hobby.

There has never been orbital bombardment of Earth. If you can prove otherwise, provide the reference(s).

Except we have records of everything Stalin did, the good and the bad, so we can look at him objectively and make an assessment.  We have no such objectivity with Cerberus.  Unless ME3 decides to dump spreadsheets outlining all of Cerberus' operations the successes and the failures so we can measure them up we never will.  I'm not trying to defend what we know they've done I'm simply pointing out we don't know the whole story.

We do? Records of *everything* Stalin did? And you know that how? If the KGB left something out or something happened to have not been recorded when they declassified documents, you would know... how?

But you are making my point. You are saying we should give Cerberus the benefit of the doubt despite what we do know they have done on the basis they *might* have done good things. If Cerberus or TIM want to make the case that they are maligned, the onus is on them to provide the evidence. Just saying 'we are great cause we say so' or 'we are merely misunderstood' doesn't cut it.

[ExtremeOne]

louise101 wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

mosor wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...


QFT.

I take the risk of a Cerberus dictatorship over the risk of galaxy-wide genocide every single time. Destroying the base is the single biggest mistake from any reasonable strategic viewpoint, and people only do it because they know Bioware won't put any kinks in their super-idealistic storyline.

One of my biggest wishes for ME3 is drastic consequences for both decisions, no "you can have the cake and eat it" as I'm sure we'll get. Keep the base, and there'll be Cerberus-like human domination for 200 years. Destroy it, and humanity gets the really short end of the stick: Earth and the biggest 20 colonies will be destroyed because a means against the Reaper attack can't be found until it's almost too late, leaving the pitiful rests as a Council protectorate for the foreseeable future. I wonder how many would stick to their "destroy the base" decision then.

I would still stick to my choice to destroy the base, because the moment we joined the citadel race our fates (like it or not) became intertwined with theirs and we are part of the same galaxy. The Reaper threat isn't just about preserving one race, it is about the galaxy coming together to end that damned cycle once and for all. The same goes for if I have to choose between sacrificing the local cluster (where earth is) or having multiple races absolutely devastated, I'll sacrafice the local cluster everytime. I know people are going to say "Gaw! That's not how the real world works, countries will cell eachother out :pinched:" But I know a wise man once said "Be the change you want to see in the world" and the change I want to see is where species are less centered on who is dominating and are banded together for the good of the galaxy.

Bah, glad you're not in charge of my fate. I'd sooner burn the entire galaxy if the local cluster could be saved. Sorry but sentencing your own people to extinction so you can prevent some alien worlds from being devestated is pretty damn treasonous. If aliens want to prevent their worlds from being devestated, then they should step up and help defend against the threat. However, I'm not going to sacrifice billions of innocent humans just so alien civilizations can continue.

As for being the change you want to see. Only self hating humans would want their world destroyed so the turians, asari and salarians could live happy prosperous lives by not making any sacrifices themselves to stop the reapers.

I didn't say I wanted earth to be destroyed, I said it would sacrifice it for the good of the galaxy. I don't get the line of arguement that anyone who doesn't obey TIM must  be a traitor or hate humanity though.
Fun Fact: Letting the rest of the galaxy get destroyed rather than sacrificing Local Cluster would probably be more likely to result in the extinction of humanity along with every one else.

   


I do not get you ME 1 fans you act as if the alliance is the only thing that matters. well the reality is they turned their back on Shepard and Anderson sent spies to spy on him or her. basically in so many words they don't give a dam about him or her. all the so called council cares about is you working with Cerberus and the hate that more then they do being 3 racist clowns . as far as My Shepards goes everyone in the alliance is a enemy of mine and will be destroyed if they get in My way. Cerberus brought Shepard back and gave him / her a new ship and said go and destroy the reapers and collectors . I'm pro human but  i have no problems with aliens . I like Garrus , Grunt , Legion , they are aliens 

Its not about being an ME1 fan, i have based my playthrough on both games but i still don''t trust cerberus (big time), i don't trust the alliance fully either. As for TIM bringing me back, it wasn't my choice i don't owe him anything the guilt cards he plays don't work.

  


thats true about the guilt card but really did the alliance do anything for Shepard 

[Moiaussi]

Sajuro wrote...

Just because the council doesn't live up to it isn't a reason we should, or are you saying that humans aren't better than aliens who can't follow their own ideals?

Watch Babylon 5 sometime. Siding against Cerberus or the Alliance (or both) does not equate to siding with the other races.

Again, look at the Terminus systems. There are plenty of mixed race worlds that function quite nicely without answering to any once race government.

You look for allies where you find them, but choosing allies that do not represent your cause or worse, also try to coopt you to their cause is problematic.

[ExtremeOne]

lovgreno wrote...

When it comes to a threat of the magnitude of the reapers you need all the guns and resources you can get. Cerberus very small resources (that usualy blows up in their own face) might not be enough you know. You got to act like a adult and swallow your pride to work for a common good with the aliens if you want humanity to survive.
It's anyones right to think whatever they want about aliens and promote their own spiecies interests. However to lessen humanitys chances of survival just because you dislike aliens is not very tactical and rather selfish. In many wars the one with the most and strongest allies wins.
Cerberus and their human dominance agenda is a political liability Shepard can't afford.

  

 
 
well after how the alliance and council treated Shepard in ME 2 is there any real need for those clowns 

[Killjoy Cutter]

ExtremeOne wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Yeah, for what they did to Jack, Admiral Kahoku, Corporal Toombs, and countless other humans and non-humans alike, Cerberus will always be an extremist group, literally a terrorist organization. Not really very sympathetic to their cause, but then I'm not terribly pro-humanity.

   



you are just like all the other ME 1 fans who can not deal with the story and issue at hand in ME 2.  in war there is horrible things. what Cerberus is pro human and will do what ever it takes to save humanity. 

What good is saving humanity if they become monsters in the end?

"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you."

[Killjoy Cutter]

ExtremeOne wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

When it comes to a threat of the magnitude of the reapers you need all the guns and resources you can get. Cerberus very small resources (that usualy blows up in their own face) might not be enough you know. You got to act like a adult and swallow your pride to work for a common good with the aliens if you want humanity to survive.
It's anyones right to think whatever they want about aliens and promote their own spiecies interests. However to lessen humanitys chances of survival just because you dislike aliens is not very tactical and rather selfish. In many wars the one with the most and strongest allies wins.
Cerberus and their human dominance agenda is a political liability Shepard can't afford.

  

 
 
well after how the alliance and council treated Shepard in ME 2 is there any real need for those clowns 

A pox on both their houses?

[Moiaussi]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you."

There's nothing Nietzsche couldn't teach ya
'Bout the raising of the wrist
Socrates himself was permanently pissed

[Sajuro]

ExtremeOne wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

When it comes to a threat of the magnitude of the reapers you need all the guns and resources you can get. Cerberus very small resources (that usualy blows up in their own face) might not be enough you know. You got to act like a adult and swallow your pride to work for a common good with the aliens if you want humanity to survive.
It's anyones right to think whatever they want about aliens and promote their own spiecies interests. However to lessen humanitys chances of survival just because you dislike aliens is not very tactical and rather selfish. In many wars the one with the most and strongest allies wins.
Cerberus and their human dominance agenda is a political liability Shepard can't afford.

  

 
 
well after how the alliance and council treated Shepard in ME 2 is there any real need for those clowns 

Think of this from their perspective, you suddenly vanish and all of your team says that you are dead and after two years you just show up on the grid again and are now working for a terrorist organization and flying around in a bigger and nicer version of the ship that blew up, which was funded and built by said terrorists. I wouldn't exactly trust Shepard either since it is more logical to think that he went AWOL instead of thinking 'hm, maybe he was killed and somehow brought back to life by these terrorists.' in my honest opinion, the original council was far more cordial to you then they had to be. And the fact that you just happen to pop back into existance is good enough reason for any reasonable person to be wary of your connections which would be why they would lie to you about the Reapers.

[Nightwriter]

The whole Cerberus racism thing is just an impression we've derived from a bunch of places in the game.

They're described as human supremacist, they associate heavily with Terra Firma, the Illusive Man's first appearance was in a circulated extranet email that warned against associating with aliens. Numerous characters make mention in the game that Cerberus has animosity for aliens. So it's basically just a bunch of little things forming an overall impression.

[DPSSOC]

[quote]Moiaussi wrote...

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

So was Exogeni.  Unless you have proof (say from the books which I have not read or something I simply missed in game) that Cerberus is Exogeni then it's just as likely that Exogeni was screwing around with Thorians, Cerberus had an agent in Exogeni who saw the potential, Cerberus took steps to acquire some creepers, Cerberus took Creepers to Binthu.  I would further request that if possible you (or anyone) list these worlds as I only recall seeing Creepers on Feros (where they're from), Nodacrux (Exogeni research facility), and Binthu (Cerberus research facility).[/quote]

I stand corrected on the source of the Creepers, however I missed the fact that on Chasca they converted a colony to husks as an experiment.[/quote]

Ok then it was just as likely I'd simply forgotten a bunch of Creepers somewhere.

[quote]Moiaussi wrote...


[quote]Noveria, Binary Helix, Saren - not Cerberus.[/quote]Unless you know of another Queen (and the Novarian Queen couldn't hear any other queens), where did Cerebus get their Rachni? Likewise, where did they get the husk experiment data? There is an implied link between Cerberus and Saren that is currently unexplained.[/quote]

For the Rachni, same as the Creepers.  Cerberus has an agent on Noveria, finds out what's going on at Peak 15, take steps to acquire Rachni (twice apparently).  No need for a direct link to Saren.  As for the husks, how many Dragon's Teeth were on Eden Prime?  Cerberus has ties to the Alliance, the Alliance no doubt brought the Dragon's Teeth off-world for study, Cerberus acquired Dragon's Teeth.  Or perhaps the Alliance put the Dragon's Teeth on Chasca and Cerberus simply infiltrated the research and got out of dodge before everything went to hell.

[quote]Moiaussi wrote...


[quote]Yes and no.  You could but those won't give you truly accurate results.  There's only one way to truly see how Thresher Maw venom/acid affects a live human being, subject a live human being to Thresher venom/acid.  Anything else requires extrapolation and assumption which results in error.[/quote]Right, so we should engage in mass executions of random people because we can't tell how we react to mass executions of random people without doing so?[/quote]
 
If you want truly accurate results yes.  Again the nature of Cerberus' research is that we're looking to close the gap between us and the aliens now we don't have time to take twice as long for unreliable results.

[quote]Moiaussi wrote...
Does the term psychopath mean anything to you?[/quote]
 
Yes it does

[quote]Moiaussi wrote...
It is questionable even to run such tests on willing volunteers. On stangers, it is called terrorism.[/quote]
 
I completely agree, it is utterly despicable what was done.  However that does not change the fact that it was necessary.

[quote]Moiaussi wrote...


[quote]How many civillian personnel, hell how many military personnel have access to the firepower Shepard walks around with.  On top of that it's pointed out numerous times that Shepard is special, elite, unique; the exception rather than the rule.[/quote]You didn't answer the question. How often do civilians run into these things without being able to avoid them? There are plenty of remote means that could be used to find them safely. You really support the concept of deliberately killing and wounding people just to save people from situations that should be avoidable?[/quote]

Absolutely.  Nuclear Meltdowns should be avoidable that doesn't mean you don't prepare for the eventuality.  If I go hiking getting mauled by a bear is completely avoidable, I still want my bear spray to be well tested.  Just because something shouldn't happen doesn't mean you shouldn't prepare for when it does.

[quote]Moiaussi wrote...
[quote]Yes and they haven't managed to kill one since Wrex's run at it (and he's how old).  Furthermore how many humans have the regenerative capabilities or redundant systems a Krogan does?
[/quote]

You are missing the point utterly. You don't win that stage of the rite by killing the thresher maw. You win by surviving it. Since it cannot come up under the central platform and there is plenty of cover via the ramp, simple survival is trivial. Killing it or even attempting to kill it is gutsy and risky, but entirely optional. If it was otherwise, then every Krogan coming of age since Wrex would have died. Given current Krogan reproductive issues that would make for a very problematic test.[/quote]
 
And you're missing the point.  Krogan, some of the fiercest fighters in the galaxy, fighting Thresher Maws in a controlled environment where they hold the advantage have trouble taking these things down.  That would seem to indicate that Thresher Maws are a credible threat.

[quote]Moiaussi wrote...


[quote]Nah I'm pretty sure we've tested that out long before we even encountered alien life.  Heck self-anihilation seems to be our hobby.[/quote]There has never been orbital bombardment of Earth. If you can prove otherwise, provide the reference(s).[/quote]

To date no, but that's because we haven't figured out how to effectively bomb enemies from orbit.  I guarantee you it will not take us 150 years to figure out though.

[quote]Moiaussi wrote...


[quote]Except we have records of everything Stalin did, the good and the bad, so we can look at him objectively and make an assessment.  We have no such objectivity with Cerberus.  Unless ME3 decides to dump spreadsheets outlining all of Cerberus' operations the successes and the failures so we can measure them up we never will.  I'm not trying to defend what we know they've done I'm simply pointing out we don't know the whole story.[/quote]We do? Records of *everything* Stalin did? And you know that how? If the KGB left something out or something happened to have not been recorded when they declassified documents, you would know... how?[/quote]

Ok fair enough not everything but it's certainly not a one sided account.  All we have on Cerberus is what has gone wrong and the horrible atrocities they've committed, we lack objectivity.

[quote]Moiaussi wrote...
But you are making my point. You are saying we should give Cerberus the benefit of the doubt despite what we do know they have done on the basis they *might* have done good things.[/quote]
 
I'm not trying to say they're great because they might have done good things I'm saying calling for the gallows without a full account of events is somewhat premature.  I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt until I can make a fair judgement of the organization.  My sympathy for the organization stems from the fact that whatever I may think of what they've done I understand and appreciate why they've done it.

[quote]Moiaussi wrote...
If Cerberus or TIM want to make the case that they are maligned, the onus is on them to provide the evidence. Just saying 'we are great cause we say so' or 'we are merely misunderstood' doesn't cut it.
[/quote]

True.