31 réponses à ce sujet

[HoonDing]

If Lolth wants Viconia so badly as Viconia indicates in her stories to <charname>, why doesn't Lolth do anything when Viconia is in Ust Natha? Like... at the very least send one of her handmaidens to warn the authorities? Or even, interfere directly, which according to a 2nd edition sourcebook is not out of the question:

Lolth rarely aids her worshipers directly, preferring to watch and
enjoy their sufferings and struggles. If she wants someone to
know that she is watching, Lolth causes a smirking pair of sensuous
lips to appear on any spider present. The spider is always
outlined in a flickering purple faerie fire. If no spider is present,
Lolth creates a smiling, spider-shaped shadow of giant size.

More rarely, Lolth acts directly. In such cases, her power may
be seen as a flickering black, mauve-edged radiance around a
person or object temporarily imbued with her power. The Spider
Queen's power typically gives one or both of the following aids
to affected things: double damage (triple to giant-type creatures)
or immunity to breakage or other damage (automatic
success on all item saving throws). It also gives any or all of the
following aids to affected beings for 1 turn: the ability to strike
first in any combat round, a +4 bonus to Armor class, and a
three-level improvement in fighting ability. (For this lasts, phantom
hit points are gained and all damage inflicted is subtracted
from these points first; when the phantom points disappear at
the end of the turn, only any excess damage is actually suffered
by the character.)

Lolth's laughter-soft, cruel feminine chuckling-is often heard by
drow who have lost her favor or who have gone mad. It is also
heard by foes of the drow, especially when beings of these sorts
are alone and/or fleeing in the endless caverns and passages of
the Underdark. Beings of less than 2 Hit Dice flee uncontrollably,
as if affected by a fear spell, until they die, are knocked unconscious,
or can hear her laughter no more.

It doesn't make sense that *nothing* happens in Ust Natha, while later on one does get an encounter with a yochlol.

Not to mention, the Drow of Ust Natha had just forged an alliance with a mage that was wreaking havoc on surface Elves, and had managed to thwart a curse from the Seldarine themselves... both of which would give her great pleasure - making it even more absurd that she'd remain idle and just let <charname> mess up everything.

Thoughts?

[SometimesSpring]

Definitely with you on this. The first time I played the Viconia romance, I was expecting to have to defend her in the Underdark. Walked in and out of Ust Natha without so much as a hoo-hah and was thoroughly disappointed. Regarding the lore, the only sane explanation I can give myself is that Lolth, being chaotic evil, enjoys the chaos caused by <charname> and crew more than the potential for revenge and thusly leaves them to their ways. Maybe she wants to see the destruction of Ust Natha for all we know. =)

[Morbidest]

If you're looking to find an excuse for the Devs. not putting this into the UnderDark plot, I suggest

1-the divine disturbence the PC causes in the underdark is so strong (afterall, he even "makes the shark gods flounder", according to Jaheira) that Viconia's presence just doesn't show up on Lloth's sensory radar

2-at this point a normal party is far too weak (average level about 12 or 13) to deal with a god, or even a god's chief minions.
 
3-Lloth is so pleased by all the slaughtering the PC & company do in her realm that she doesn't probe them.

[Morbidest]

If you're looking to find an excuse for the Devs. not putting this into the UnderDark plot, I suggest

1-the divine disturbence the PC causes in the underdark is so strong (afterall, he even "makes the shark gods flounder", according to Jaheira) that Viconia's presence just doesn't show up on Lloth's sensory radar

2-at this point a normal party is far too weak (average level about 12 or 13) to deal with a god, or even a god's chief minions.
 
3-Lloth is so pleased by all the slaughtering the PC & company do in her realm that she doesn't probe them.

[HoonDing]

On the other hand, the "divine disturbance" in the Underdark should have given Lolth even more incentive to become personally involved. I am sure she would have been very interested in absorbing some of Bhaal's essence when she had the chance.

Of course, gameplay wise it makes sense that nothing as I described in my first post happens (though any ToB endgame party would have a chance against the avatar of Lolth, who's a cleric 33/mage 31/fighter 20), but storywise not so much.

I think the only possible explanation is that Eilistraee, the only good drow deity, personally watched over Viconia (and the entire party) during their stay in the Underdark.

Modifié par virumor, 26 août 2010 - 02:33 .

[bloodanddarknessfillmysoul]

Cyric mentions in ToB that he is forbidden to interfere directly IIRC, perhaps this intervention applies to more than just those with threatened portfolios?

[Seagloom]

@bloodanddarkness - Those are my thoughts as well. If Ao stepped in and told everyone to back off it is likely that applies to Lolth too. For whatever inscrutable reason he wanted the Bhaalspawn to sort out their own mess. (The real reason being developer fiat, but let's pretend here. )

---

The reason SometimesSpring first brought up makes sense too. Lolth is a chaotic evil deity with emphasis on the chaotic. As it states in the quoted reference, she prefers letting her priestesses struggle. She rarely goes out of her way to warn them about anything. The former matron of House Baenre ruled Menzoberranzan for centuries and had her life snuffed in a sudden, unexpected attack. Lolth did nothing to warn her favored priestess.

She seems to reserve most of her scrutiny for times of punishment. The entire ritual surrounding Driders is a big indicator of how sadistic her priorities are. Since Viconia and Charname slay the Yochlol effortlessly it could be Lolth decides to bide her time until after they part company. Judging by Viconia's fate in the unmodded game that makes the most sense. Also, one has to consider Charname can arrive in Ust Natha long before the romance has played out, and have no idea Lolth is gunning for Viconia. Events could still progress against them, but it would lack the same dramatic impact from a storytelling perspective.

I'm not saying you're without sense here, mind you. This is just seems like one of those situations that can easily go in several directions.

Modifié par Seagloom, 26 août 2010 - 05:39 .

[Chebby]

Perhaps Lolth despises the smell of fish.

Modifié par Chebby, 26 août 2010 - 06:03 .

[HoonDing]

I'm not too sure about Ao. After all, he didn't care when Cyric went to backstab Mystra. :shakefist: I'd think the Bhaalspawn saga would seem a pretty trivial matter to him.

No matter what Cyric claims, I think the prime reason why he didn't snuff the Bhaalspawn is because foremost he feared Kelemvor's & Mystra's retaliations... which would probably trigger another Godswar & him possibly losing his godhood.

Also, don't forget Rillifane interferes directly in Suldanesselar if he is awakaned by <charname>.

Modifié par virumor, 26 août 2010 - 06:13 .

[Seagloom]

That's true about Rillifane. Well, I got nothing. This is what we in the trade call a plot hole.

Modifié par Seagloom, 26 août 2010 - 06:15 .

[Chebby]

I'm telling you it's because the party smells of fish by this point.

[HoonDing]

Explain.

[Morbidest]

Not only do they smell of dead sharkmen, but all the dead frogmen from the West tunnels do not contribute to a pleasant aroma - unless you have Jan along, in which he can saute their legs in a delightful turnip and butter sauce.

Another explaination is that Shar decided to give Vicky special protection while she is in the Underdark since Shar thinks Lolth is creepy.

[Sparky The Barbarian]

Maybe this belongs in the humor thread, but one game had the Handmaiden and the Yochol attack us in the Bazaar in Ust Natha in full view of the Ust Natha Handmaiden Overseers, who made absolutely no comment at all.

[SometimesSpring]

Lolth appeared to me in a vision and wants me to tell you filthy worms that she was sleeping and you should all stop talking about her.

[Morbidest]

The power of Boo will protect us.

[jaxsbudgie]

Back to the topic ... sort of, wasn't there supposed to be some involvement with Viconia in the Underdark? There are slaves upstairs if the tavern that are referred to as ex-House DeVir drow, part of a broken quest that didn't make the final cut?

[HoonDing]

Since House De'Vir was from Menzoberranzan (very far away from Ust Natha), it does seem BioWare had planned something for Viconia there.

[jaxsbudgie]

I wish someone would re-write aspects of Viconia's backstory a bit, the conflicts with R.A.Salvatore's version (the real version) disturbs me a little.
Salvatore doesn't mention why House DeVir fell into disfavour, it could be the very reason Viconia is on the surface, but Zaknafein kills Ginafae DeVir right? Doesn't Viconia's backstory say her brother Valas did?
I bet the DeVir slaves were there to give away Viconia's position by revealing who she really is. Methinks the party would have to kill them outright or kill whoever heard, resulting in something far worse.

Edit: After doing some sleuthing in Near Infinity, I've come across the DeVir refugees (what they're referred to as) and some of their dialogue options.
"House DeVir is nothing. Ashes on the wind. As you, too, shall be. You should have died with your own matron, in your own city. Now... well, we shall see, and I shall find it most amusing."
What's interesting, is the female Drow keeping them in line has specific scripts and in one of them it looks as if she is to kill one of the slaves. But then again, that could be when the party potentially reveal themselves and everyone in the city turns hostile. Also if you're a male, she berates you, if you're a female she leaves to pray to Lloth. Mayhap this is where you can free them?

Also, this is the first time Viconia knows that her house had fallen right?

Modifié par jaxsbudgie, 28 août 2010 - 10:44 .

[HoonDing]

Does Viconia mention she is the daughter of the actual matron mother, though? I don't recall that.

If she were a daughter of a matron mother, she wouldn't have been made a priestess of Lolth, but be expected to compete to eventually become matron mother herself, like Phaere. I could be wrong, though, I'm not too well-versed in drow lore.

Modifié par virumor, 28 août 2010 - 11:38 .

[jaxsbudgie]

As far as I know, yeah, she was the daughter of Ginafae DeVir the matron mother of Ruling House number 4 of Menzoberranzan. Although her mother isn't given a name, I'm going by the name of the matron mother of House DeVir in the Drizzt Do'Urden books.
She would have been a priestess of Lloth yes, and would have struck down her mother at any given chance to become matron mother. But the eldest assumes the role first, so I don't know if she had any older sisters. Obviously when she failed to sacrifice the child she fell out of favour of Lloth and lost all her clerical abilities, she was probably around level 7 I'd say originally?

I've been on the PocketPlaneGroup forums, and apparently there were 2 Viconia quests written but cut. One was when you first meet her when she's tied to the stake. She was captured not originally for being drow but for some other reason, which the player soon discovers. Turns out she is infected with lycanthropy after battling a few wolves on her way to Athkatla and is accused of murder after waking up one morning covered in blood. The player could kick her out or restore her, but I don't think the ending was fully resolved, I know that it involved Wolfsbane and Ribald.
The second quest was in the Underdark where Viconia betrays you to the matron mother of the ruling House and you get locked up as a consequence. She soon comes to your aid where you can either berate her or question her. She says that when she first arrived in Ust Natha and realising her house had fallen (she was now very much a rogue House-less drow), the idea of rejoining Lloth overwhelmed her. And by using the PC, a child of Bhall, as sacrifice ensured she'd be positioned into a well established, well standing House of Ust Natha. The problem with this quest, is that when she frees you after realising she hates the way of the drow, only the matron mother knows, so you have to kill her in order to escape, meaning the entire city would fall hostile, thus ruining any side missions that would occur in Ust Natha.

I'm not sure if Unfinished Business are planning on implementing these two quests, I doubt they'll even touch the lycanthropy one, just seems too bizarre for Viconia and wasn't fully written. The second one could be done quite well, with Viconia betraying the party at the end of all the Ust Natha missions and resolved in a different manner.

Viconia's Lycanthropy Problem

[HoonDing]

The second quest seems fine to me (choice & consequence, and all that), but I can understand why it was scrapped.



They could've let Viconia betray <charname> in the final phase of the main questline in Ust Natha (after Phaere asks you to steal the dragon eggs), for instance, and the player would've ample time to finish side quests.

[Chebby]

virumor wrote...

Does Viconia mention she is the daughter of the actual matron mother, though? I don't recall that.

If she were a daughter of a matron mother, she wouldn't have been made a priestess of Lolth, but be expected to compete to eventually become matron mother herself, like Phaere. I could be wrong, though, I'm not too well-versed in drow lore.

I thought that. I only read 'our mother.' I was about to crit-gib her for lying for a moment before I realised. I think the matron mother figure in the underdark is so strong that it's the first thing one thinks of when hearing/reading 'Mother' in a discussion about Drow society.

Modifié par Chebby, 29 août 2010 - 01:07 .

[HoonDing]

I can now confirm that Viconia's mother was in fact the matron mother. If you romance her, her brother Valas is summoned by the Wraith Lord in Forest of Mir, who mentions "he slew the matron mother".

[Humanoid_Taifun]

virumor wrote...

I'm not too sure about Ao. After all, he didn't care when Cyric went to backstab Mystra. :shakefist: I'd think the Bhaalspawn saga would seem a pretty trivial matter to him.

No matter what Cyric claims, I think the prime reason why he didn't snuff the Bhaalspawn is because foremost he feared Kelemvor's & Mystra's retaliations... which would probably trigger another Godswar & him possibly losing his godhood.

Also, don't forget Rillifane interferes directly in Suldanesselar if he is awakaned by .

I spent months meditating and thinking about this problem (hence no posts lately) and now I believe that what Rillifane did was actually according to the limitations set by Ao.
My reasoning?
Firstly: There are Bhaalspawn clerics. That means that in some indirect way the Gods are indeed permitted to affect the outcome of this war (though I still wouldn't know how to roleplay such a PC). We don't know how exactly the rules lie. Direct intervention by killing somebody is a No, while directly supporting somebody is apparently a-okay. Testing somebody by having them fight against somebody else seems on the borderline (Cyric risked it, but he wasn't entirely sure whether there would be repercussions)
Secondly: Rillifane said he could do nothing more after killing Irenicus' servants and opening the door for you.
Was Irenicus too strong for a God to handle? I doubt it. The most probable reason (as I see it) is that Rillifane believed that this would indeed be too much meddling in the affairs of the Bhaal spawn. We know that this God is a bit more likely to follow rules than Cyric.
But in how far does the situation in Suldanessarlar compare to the one in the Underdark? Did Lolth simply want to avoid attention from the other Gods? Did the God (whoever that was again) who granted Adalon her fertilized eggs also enhance the illusion spell so that Lolth wouldn't be able to penetrate it?
I still do not know.