132 réponses à ce sujet

[xXSnak3Eat3rXx]

Water Dumple wrote...

Apparently those against Tali in general (to use a diplomatic term) think that liking the loyalty mission is just a generic response to liking the character. Ever get slightly creative and try to understand that we like the character because the loyalty mission is good? >_> It's certainly one of my reasons, among many others.

Exactly. As I said in my OP, she was my least favourite character in the first game and I never really liked her up until her rescue mission on the Geth planet. She was just...different in ME2, to say the least. After the trial, when Sheperd and her talk is when I fell in love with her.

[Siansonea]

Actually, I dislike Tali as a character, but I think her loyalty mission is really well done.

[KainrycKarr]

Barquiel wrote...

I think Tali's loyalty mission would be more interesting without the charm/intimidate option.
We get the perfect "hero saves the day, everybody wins" solution...and no difficult decision (=Connor/Isolde II)

I agree with this. Paragon should have ended with Tali being exiled, Renegade with her hating you for delivering the evidence.

Undecided if the rally the crowd option shouldve been there. It's cool to hear/watch, but I don't like you can get through a trial for TREASON completely unscathed.

[khevan]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

I think Tali's loyalty mission would be more interesting without the charm/intimidate option.
We get the perfect "hero saves the day, everybody wins" solution...and no difficult decision (=Connor/Isolde II)

I agree with this. Paragon should have ended with Tali being exiled, Renegade with her hating you for delivering the evidence.

Undecided if the rally the crowd option shouldve been there. It's cool to hear/watch, but I don't like you can get through a trial for TREASON completely unscathed.

To a certain extent, I agree with this, with one exception.  I think Paragon = exiled is a good choice, since Tali says she doesn't care about being exiled if you keep the evidence, etc.

The one exception is this:  I think the Rally the Crowd option should remain in, but be fairly difficult to achieve.  As it is now, there's quite a few things you have to do to get that, namely give Veetor to Tali on Freedom's Progress, keep Kal'Reegar alive on Haestrom, and talk to the admirals before going to the Alarei.

If they had added a step or two to that list, and made "Rally the Crowd" the only way to both keep Tali from being exiled, and hiding the evidence, it'd make sense, at least to me.  Really, the trial was nothing more than a sham, a way for the various admirals to try to push their own agendas.  Tali should never have been on trial in the first place, and having the "Rally the crowd" option call the admirals out onto the carpet and basically tell them they're full of crap makes the most sense to me.

Paragon hides the evidence to spare Tali and her father's memory, leading to Tali's exile.
Renegade reveals the evidence, sparing Tali from exile, but leading to her hating you for it.
"Rally the crowd" gives the best of both options, but takes effort to achieve.

This would have been my prefered way of going about it, but as it is, Tali's loyalty mission is one of the best missions in ME2, in my opinion.

[Errol Dnamyx]

What I liked most in that scene was Talis facial express... oh wait.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Zaeed is the greatest frakkin moment in the series

[KainrycKarr]

Errol Dnamyx wrote...

What I liked most in that scene was Talis facial express... oh wait.

i c wat u did thar

[Collider]

I don't believe that charm/intimidate in the Tali trial was like Connor/Isolde in Dragon Age: Origins. The reason? You can't reveal the evidence and have everyone happy. Meaning no matter what option you take in the trial, you're always missing out on something.

[numotsbane]

Siansonea II wrote...

Actually, I dislike Tali as a character, but I think her loyalty mission is really well done.

QFT. but the best moment in the series, to correct the OP, is either:

This Part, or
This bit, or potentially This

[PsyrenY]

Barquiel wrote...

I think Tali's loyalty mission would be more interesting without the charm/intimidate option.
We get the perfect "hero saves the day, everybody wins" solution...and no difficult decision (=Connor/Isolde II)

If you want the difficult decision, ignore the shiny blue/red text, it's not hard.

[NuclearBuddha]

khevan wrote...
To a certain extent, I agree with this, with one exception.  I think Paragon = exiled is a good choice, since Tali says she doesn't care about being exiled if you keep the evidence, etc.

The one exception is this:  I think the Rally the Crowd option should remain in, but be fairly difficult to achieve.  As it is now, there's quite a few things you have to do to get that, namely give Veetor to Tali on Freedom's Progress, keep Kal'Reegar alive on Haestrom, and talk to the admirals before going to the Alarei.

If they had added a step or two to that list, and made "Rally the Crowd" the only way to both keep Tali from being exiled, and hiding the evidence, it'd make sense, at least to me.  Really, the trial was nothing more than a sham, a way for the various admirals to try to push their own agendas.  Tali should never have been on trial in the first place, and having the "Rally the crowd" option call the admirals out onto the carpet and basically tell them they're full of crap makes the most sense to me.

Paragon hides the evidence to spare Tali and her father's memory, leading to Tali's exile.
Renegade reveals the evidence, sparing Tali from exile, but leading to her hating you for it.
"Rally the crowd" gives the best of both options, but takes effort to achieve.

This would have been my prefered way of going about it, but as it is, Tali's loyalty mission is one of the best missions in ME2, in my opinion.

I understand the impulse to avoid easy solutions, but hey, if I've made the effort to be especially paragon/renegade, I'd want to be rewarded for it with blue text/red text.  Additionally, if the Rally the Crowd option is kept (with the outcome of exonerating Tali AND keeping the evidence hidden), why have that be the only route for it?

That said, I think that the idea that Tali exiled should be the "good" end has problems thematically, especially with her inclusion as an LI.  If she's exiled, she's basically trapped with Shep.  That's not particularly cool.

I should note that since defaultShep seems to arrive at his failtastic place in life through picking neutral options, the fact that Rally the Crowd is neutral is kind of interesting.

[PsyrenY]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

That said, I think that the idea that Tali exiled should be the "good" end has problems thematically, especially with her inclusion as an LI.  If she's exiled, she's basically trapped with Shep.  That's not particularly cool.

Yeah, she'd probably get all clingy and weird.

NuclearBuddha wrote...

I should note that since defaultShep seems to arrive at his failtastic place in life through picking neutral options, the fact that Rally the Crowd is neutral is kind of interesting.

Since you can only get it by being explicitly Paragon twice (the second of which is clearly optional), NeutralShep won't get the chance.

[NuclearBuddha]

Optimystic_X wrote...
Since you can only get it by being explicitly Paragon twice (the second of which is clearly optional), NeutralShep won't get the chance.

I don't remember the Veetor choice, clearly:  was it binary paragon/renegade?  If so, then yeah, I think failShep takes renegade when there's no neutral.

But saving Kal doesn't require the paragon interrupt.  If you don't take it, you can still save him if you kill the Colossus quick enough.

[RubiconI7]

epoch_ wrote...

I disagree.

[Pacifien]

I do wish there were more tough choices in the game. At least make Tali's trial as much of a polarizer as the decisions behind the Destiny Ascension, the Collector Base or Legion's loyalty mission. Personal preference, I know. Many people don't want to feel punished by their choices in what is supposed to be an entertaining game.

Kinda works both ways, though. Some people think Paragons get away with too much and Renegades are punished consistently for their decisions. Then the counterargument is to simply not be a douche, but this is way off the point of the original post.

Don't really think getting Tali exiled glues her to Shepard. If she's Shepard's LI, she's with him either way. If she's not Shepard's LI, there's nothing saying she must remain on the Normandy. I suppose having her exiled could inject a bit of doubt to Shepard, him wondering if she's really only with him because she has nowhere else to go. But that is the realm of speculation and fanfic.

Tali's loyalty mission is a good all-arounder for the most part. However, I found the discussions with Mordin and Legion had more impact to me. The sorrow in Samara's face ended up making me feel sad along with her. The combat for Kasumi's mission gets my blood pumping.

Modifié par Pacifien, 27 août 2010 - 04:39 .

[NuclearBuddha]

Pacifien wrote...
Don't really think getting Tali exiled glues her to Shepard. If she's Shepard's LI, she's with him either way. If she's not Shepard's LI, there's nothing saying she must remain on the Normandy. I suppose having her exiled could inject a bit of doubt to Shepard, him wondering if she's really only with him because she has nowhere else to go.

This is why I said especially w/ regard to her being an LI.  Though, you know, exile-specific dialogue might have been an interesting inclusion.

Also:  From what I have seen around here, I think the "reward" for being renegade is being a douche.

[jwalker]

Barquiel wrote...

I think Tali's loyalty mission would be more interesting without the charm/intimidate option.
We get the perfect "hero saves the day, everybody wins" solution...and no difficult decision (=Connor/Isolde II)

or you can ask the mages for help and you are the hero too, no one dies, everybody wins....

[Lord Coake]

jwalker wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

I think Tali's loyalty mission would be more interesting without the charm/intimidate option.
We get the perfect "hero saves the day, everybody wins" solution...and no difficult decision (=Connor/Isolde II)

or you can ask the mages for help and you are the hero too, no one dies, everybody wins....

But to do it you have to not only fight your way through a demon-infested mage tower, you have to fight across the dream realm, free your companions from eternal spiritual slavery, face a greater demon down on it's own turf, then shout down the Templars. After all that, either you or a party member has to go back into the spirit realm, and fight the demon possesing Connor down alone.

You had to work your ass off to be a Paragon in DA:O.

[epoch_]

Lord Coake wrote...

jwalker wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

I think Tali's loyalty mission would be more interesting without the charm/intimidate option.
We get the perfect "hero saves the day, everybody wins" solution...and no difficult decision (=Connor/Isolde II)

or you can ask the mages for help and you are the hero too, no one dies, everybody wins....

But to do it you have to not only fight your way through a demon-infested mage tower, you have to fight across the dream realm, free your companions from eternal spiritual slavery, face a greater demon down on it's own turf, then shout down the Templars. After all that, either you or a party member has to go back into the spirit realm, and fight the demon possesing Connor down alone.

You had to work your ass off to be a Paragon in DA:O.

You have to do all that stuff anyways.

[poisonoustea]

I loved the trial and it's probably my favorite ME2 moment along with meeting Wrex and the last scene in Mordin's loyalty, but the best moment in the series?
I recall Mass Effect's ending being nothing short of glorious.

Modifié par poisonoustea, 27 août 2010 - 05:44 .

[khevan]

NuclearBuddha wrote...
I understand the impulse to avoid easy solutions, but hey, if I've made the effort to be especially paragon/renegade, I'd want to be rewarded for it with blue text/red text.  Additionally, if the Rally the Crowd option is kept (with the outcome of exonerating Tali AND keeping the evidence hidden), why have that be the only route for it?

I actually didn't explain that as well as I could have, I suppose.  When I was talking about paragon/renegade, I wasn't talking about ULB or LLR, not charm or intimidate (to use ME1 lingo), but the right side conversation options.  I think "Rally the crowd" should be either a charm or intimidate option, much like it is now, but instead of just "click this conversation option and I win" it should be that you have to do the steps for the current Rally the Crowd option, plus one or two other steps that I'm not a good enough writer to try to detail.

Upper Right Paragon goes along with Tali's wishes (hence paragon), but the consequence of that (if you didn't earn the charm/intimidate option) is that Tali gets exiled (again, much like it is now).

Lower Right renegade ignores Tali's wishes to keep her from being exiled (hence renegade), but the consequence is that Tali gets mad, and basically ruins their friendship.

I just want there to be extra steps to using charm/intimidate, instead of them being conversational "I win" buttons.

That said, I think that the idea that Tali exiled should be the "good" end has problems thematically, especially with her inclusion as an LI.  If she's exiled, she's basically trapped with Shep.  That's not particularly cool.

It's paragon, not "good."  Paragon because Shep is going along with Tali's wishes as I wrote above.  Also, there's nothing stopping Tali from setting off on her own, except her own desire to be with Shepard (and the writers' pens)

I should note that since defaultShep seems to arrive at his failtastic place in life through picking neutral options, the fact that Rally the Crowd is neutral is kind of interesting.

Yeah, it's wierd that it's in the neutral position, since you have to be strictly paragon on one choice early in the game (Veetor), and it's easier to use the paragon interrupt to keep Kal'Reegar alive on Haestrom.  I've yet to manage to kill the Colossus fast enough to keep him alive when I've tried it.

So, for me at least, I have to perform two strictly Paragon actions for the Rally the Crowd option to even be available.  Having it be a neutral option makes no sense to me.  This is why I want to connect it to the charm/intimidate options (with different speeches, of course.)

Of course, if there's going to be an intimidate check with the Rally the Crowd, it shouldn't necessarily include the earlier Paragon choices.  Hmm.  Didn't think about that earlier.  Same idea applies, though.  The preconditions for the checks would have to be different, in different spots perhaps. 

Again, this is just what I'd like to see, in various points thru the game.  I like the idea of previous actions having an impact on future events, which ME promised us, and will hopefully be realized in ME3 in full, instead of thru emails as in ME2.  I just also like the idea of having to work for the ability to get the best possible outcomes, instead of "Oh, I was a nice guy / jerk for long enough, now I can make a comment and everyone agrees."  

[NuclearBuddha]

Er, I meant "good" as in "best outcome/mission success" not as a moral distinction.

I'm fine with having to perform additional actions to get to a "perfect" outcome, but I'm also fine with ULB/LLR FTW, so to speak.

Anyway, I think part of the "challenge" of the mission is finding the outcome you specifically desire to make the story you want. Hanging out in the Tali Thread, the trial has been disected at great length, and different people like different aspects.

Some actually prefer exile, some prefer ULB w/o talking to the Admirals, some like rallying the crowd, etc. The mission has something for basically everyone. I only wish that all the missions had that kind of granularity in role-playing.

Modifié par NuclearBuddha, 27 août 2010 - 07:57 .

[Cypher0020]

I like Tali as a character I like her mission... it has everything



political intrigue/ rumors of war/shepard's awesome speech/fighting geth



c'mon what's not to like about that??

[xlavaina]

Cypher0020 wrote...
c'mon what's not to like about that??

There is a lot to not like about it. Don't confuse dislike with hate. In fact, most of the posts against her loyalty mission have been against Tali the character and in turn her fans, not the mission. By the way I love her mission and I really like Tali's character so I'm just playing the devil's advocate (Us less extreme Tali fans need to show the world that not all of us are like the Talimancers; yes this is a Valkyrie reference, and no I am not a huge fan of the movie). Back on topic:

Anyway, the Aleri part was the weak point for me. It just wasn't as involving as the other loyalty missions' combat parts. The only good part about the Aleri was when Tali found her father. Also, I think some of the anti-Tali-missions-people don't like how the trial brought Tali so close to Shepard. I personally disagree with this since there are many other reasons why Tali could be close to him. The whole father dying part and seeing Tali not emotional at all after the one scene really irritated me too. I have very close experiences with very close people dying and I know I that it is impossible to function normally after losing someone so close. Tali's "sorry we're late" comment REALLY irritated me because it was so misplaced. 

Personally though I liked the trial very much. It added some balance to the rest of the game; politics being absent from most of the second game except for the exchange with the council. 

Modifié par xlavaina, 28 août 2010 - 02:01 .

[Super ._. Shepard]

i dont like tali -______-