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[DragonRageGT]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Right. The issue is that for the people that do consider KoTOR an action RPG, it has to be their perception of the combat, because the mechanism was not that of an action RPG. So if Bioware were to design a game that played like KoTOR but did not lock the camera and allowed us to use the mouse better, perhaps their perception might be action but the result would be RPG in terms of combat. At least if you ask me.

Dungeon Siege is a great litmus test.  How familair are you with Dungeon Siege?

Dungeon Siege was unequivocally viewed as an action RPG when it was released.  The quests are rudimentary, conversations feature no real choices, the game world is entirely linear (even the side-quest environments were just stops along the way), and in-between towns gameplay consisted entirely of killing monsters and collecting loot.

But, the basic combat mechanic was entirely passive (and I mean entirely - you didn't actually have to do anything, and all of your characters would select targets and fight on their own), and the only input you could give was to select a different target (if you didn't like the one that character had chosen), change which spell he was casting (which the magic system ensured you would almost never want to do), or switch between combat skills (which you'd only do if you were trying to game the levelling mechanic).

If someone views Dungeon Siege as an action-RPG, then DAO could also credibly be.  If someone thinks Dungeon Siege isn't an action-RPG, then there's no way DAO could be.

And Dungeon Siege was a beautiful game in a seamless world and a hell lot of fun specially in multiplayer. Those were great days at the Zone.

I don't see why people keep labeling The Witcher as an action RPG and then say that DA:O is not. Combat system, whether it's turn based, dice roll, real time, controlled by computer, script or player OOC skill+character skills hardly defines it.

I really like, agree and see and the most sensible, the concept I learned from Kalfear (guess it was him who posted it):

If the combat is an element used to support the story, which is the main core of the game = RPG (DA:O, TW)

If the story is an element to throw us at the combat, which is the main core of the game = action RPG hybrid

And there are great games in any category we may look for them.  I am sure DA2 will be a great game, despite the estimated length really cuts a bit of the Epic factor they try to sell. What I really hate about DA2 is that I would need a console to enjoy it at its best. I don't own one and don't intend to.

I remember a numer of reviews of DA:O saying that everything on the PC version was slightly better than the consoles counterpart because of their limitations. I wouldn't want DA2 to be limited by that for the PC version.

[Morroian]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

I would not at all be surprised if the majority of people saying "oh DA1 was the same!"  Played DA:O on either the 360 or PS3.

Well I played it on the PC using the overhead view often. 

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

SDNcN wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
I think a huge part of the debate in the first place, is for PC users
DA:O plays much differently than the console versions in the sense of
the extra levels of zoom, the viable pause and play etc.

I would not at all be surprised if the majority of people saying "oh DA1 was the same!"  Played DA:O on either the 360 or PS3.

Now thats not in any way meant as a slight against those users, just a clarification that the PC version plays much different and the majority of the PC users would hate to see that style of play go away. Especially if PC is no longer the lead Sku, which I'm honestly starting to figure it's not.

Sku? Is that the same as lead platform?

They've been pretty clear since the inital announcement that PC isn't the lead platform for DA:2; all versions being developed side by side rather than PC ports . I've seen some people infer from it that it will mean that features developed for console versions will bleed over into the PC and replace features that existed in DA:O.

I don't know though, so far it seems to me that the PC will still retain those elements (auto attack, pause and play, overhead camera), but just include options for people who have a different playstyle.

Sku means different versions of a title, in this case theres 3 skus, PS3, 360 and PC.
And I hope you're correct about zooming out. I believe Mr. Laidlaw mentioned zoom level was lessened on the pc version, which if true kinda just flat out sucks.

Like I've said, I've no problem with ports, the issue lies in that 9 out of 10 times, console to PC ports generally don't play anywhere near as well on the PC. And really in the tactical sense its not even close more often than not for this type of game. I just hope Bioware isn't in some form abandoning their PC users needs and likes, since the consoles are where the money is these days aparently and we all know EA loves the money.

[Merced256]

haha hah hahaaa haah ha ha haaaaaaaaaa



The spiritual successor to BG2 went what? Oh heh, yea 'bout that. See, i won't say i or "we" told you so because well.. this is just stupid/bad/god awful marketing. I mean, what the hell. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't right bioware?



I wouldn't call DA:O a Action RPG. Action RPGs are largely hack & Slash with minimalistic stats/skills/story. Look at the pinnacle of Action RPGs and tell me this isn't true. Not only is it not a action rpg, but bioware itself called it a crpg throwback... I'm starting to see a pattern here, only i don't like what this one foretells. DA:O was actually a CRPG, modern, but a CRPG. So you essentially told the truth and i don't think we got many crazies coming out the woodwork on DA:O launch to call it anything other than a CRPG. But.. now you're going to go back and label DA:O a action rpg?.. Please, please, stop. You aren't doing yourself any favors.



I am a bit shocked though by outright calling DA2 a action rpg. Either way it goes you're going to be a blatant liar to one group or another. You know the market research on the two different demographics have been done literally thousands of times, and the console demographic is significantly younger, so young in fact that i believe the number placed it somewhere in the range of 16. Now i'm not saying every 16 year old is some unintelligent knuckle dragger who drools from one side of his mouth and often licks the TV, but there is definitely a difference in what type of game appeals to that particular demographic. One of which could be described as Dynasty Wars style Action RPG. You've been telling us for months that DA2 isn't dumbed down and mass effected, so that can only mean what? You're lying to get parents to shell out 60 bucks to appease little jimmy's ADD only for little jimmy to feel cheated. While i would take a lot of pleasure in a lot of little jimmys having broken hearts over this, i can only fear that the next go round really will be a Action RPG so you don't lose out on that market you're so desperately trying to break in to.



Slippery slopes are indeed slippery.

[Onyx Jaguar]

hack and slash games are too boring for people with ADD

[Merced256]

Just_mike wrote...

Dragon Age had an extremely refined taste. Coming from FPS games, I found it a struggle to get use to the playstyle. Ive finally worked myself up to Normal since buying the game...And Im still having a tough time. The only way this game would have been more reasonable (Not to say its not, its just hard for me. I shoot things in videogames 99.9% of the time. A punch to the face is also likely) is if the game was an 8-bit FF adventure.

Im planning on getting Dragon age 2. I hope this whole "action RPG" thing means that its more playable for people like me.

I'm really not being derogatory here but this is the exact opposite of what i, and at least a sizeable portion of people, wish to prevent. In order for it to be more playable for "people like you" (your words not mine) they would... dun dun dun.. have to dumb down the game. :innocent:

[Merced256]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

hack and slash games are too boring for people with ADD

Not true at all, look at the most successful titles for Consoles. Its hack & slash or its brother Shoot'em Up with big explosions and pretty visuals. ADD Heaven.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Merced256 wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

hack and slash games are too boring for people with ADD

Not true at all, look at the most successful titles for Consoles. Its hack & slash or its brother Shoot'em Up with big explosions and pretty visuals. ADD Heaven.

no

[Merced256]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Merced256 wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

hack and slash games are too boring for people with ADD

Not true at all, look at the most successful titles for Consoles. Its hack & slash or its brother Shoot'em Up with big explosions and pretty visuals. ADD Heaven.

no

Compelling argu.. wait a second:innocent:

[SDNcN]

Merced256 wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

hack and slash games are too boring for people with ADD

Not true at all, look at the most successful titles for Consoles. Its hack & slash or its brother Shoot'em Up with big explosions and pretty visuals. ADD Heaven.

Grand Theft Auto is pretty successful on consoles, but most people would say it has more to do with the open-world aspects, rather than it being a "Shoot'em Up with big explosions and pretty visuals".

[errant_knight]

PanosSmirnakos wrote...

Indeed, it's all about marketing and not the good, acceptable type. From the "successor of Baldur's Gate" to "fight like a Spartan" and also the famous 2 year support with DLCs which expand the world of DA:O... As I said in a previous post of mine here, there are tons of action RPGs or action games with RPG elements in the market already, but very few pure and modern RPGs. One of the reasons DA:O was successful was because there was a huge thirst for a pure modern RPG. DA 2 as an action RPG now, has to compete with the Witcher 2, Diablo 3, Fable 3 and many other upcoming and less famous but promising action RPGs. Dragon Age lost its "uniqueness" for me with the new direction of DA 2. Anyway, I don't quit on DA 2 yet. DA:O was that good to keep me reading info about its sequel, although I predict that it's going to be a lesser product.

Exactly. DA:O was playable and replayable in a way that really made it different from the others, while DA2 seems to be an attempt to achieve the opposite. I haven't enjoyed a game that much for a very long time. If it hadn't been as good as it was, I would have completely written off DA2 by now. My hope is that the story will make up for the rest of it, but there sure is a lot to make up for by this point.

[Merced256]

SDNcN wrote...

Merced256 wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

hack and slash games are too boring for people with ADD

Not true at all, look at the most successful titles for Consoles. Its hack & slash or its brother Shoot'em Up with big explosions and pretty visuals. ADD Heaven.

Grand Theft Auto is pretty successful on consoles, but most people would say it has more to do with the open-world aspects, rather than it being a "Shoot'em Up with big explosions and pretty visuals".

True i think the open world aspect is a big draw, but overshadowed by what the whole franchise was based upon, violence, and often meaningless random violence.

[SDNcN]

Merced256 wrote...

True i think the open world aspect is a big draw, but overshadowed by what the whole franchise was based upon, violence, and often meaningless random violence.

Well, that stuff is the new ****.

[Lawrence- Mage of the Grey Wardens]

Merced256 wrote...


True i think the open world aspect is a big draw, but overshadowed by what the whole franchise was based upon, violence, and often meaningless random violence.

Hey, I had fun committing random acts of violence and theft to get the star-meter filled up. Running from cops is a blast.

But yeah, aside from arcade romps like the aforementioned, GTA wasn't really my thing either so I never played the games into any considerable depths.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Merced256 wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

hack and slash games are too boring for people with ADD

Not true at all, look at the most successful titles for Consoles. Its hack & slash or its brother Shoot'em Up with big explosions and pretty visuals. ADD Heaven.

no

Kinda hard to disagree with him, look at any top selling console titles and its shooters, and open world stuff like GTA or Borderlands. Hardcore RPG's not that there's many on consoles to begin with, generally don't sell well.

[Onyx Jaguar]

What the **** does that have to do with ADD?

[SDNcN]

errant_knight wrote...

Exactly. DA:O was playable and replayable in a way that really made it different from the others, while DA2 seems to be an attempt to achieve the opposite. I haven't enjoyed a game that much for a very long time. If it hadn't been as good as it was, I would have completely written off DA2 by now. My hope is that the story will make up for the rest of it, but there sure is a lot to make up for by this point.

How so? i can go find the link, but I think it was mentioned that rather than focus on the begining of the story (the origins), they are going to focus on the middle part of the story in DA:2. Which could lead to the same replayablity.

[Merced256]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

What the **** does that have to do with ADD?

That at least 5% of the market bioware is trying to breech is afflicted with it. I wish i could find the study that related ADHD with kids who were more inclined to play video games than go outside and play. Sadly i can't find it, so i can only credibly say 5%.

5% of children who are in a position to play video games is a rather large market.

Modifié par Merced256, 27 août 2010 - 08:01 .

[Aratham Darksight]

This is a strange thread. I watched the clip from the original post and couldn't help but notice that it said nothing of gameplay specifics or elaborate at all on Ray Muzyka's "action RPG" comment.

I have an honest question for the people who are worried by this clip or feel that it validates their pre-existing concerns:

In what specific ways do you think DA2's gameplay mechanics have changed from Origins?

[TM13h]

David Gaider wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
I would hope so David. I think you can understand where the fear of  consolization would come into play though.

I do understand where it comes from. It comes from a fear of consoles "tainting" PC games, and often a sense of elitism that console games (and gamers) are somehow less intelligent and discerning than their PC brethren. I don't consider it to be a good thing.

You are missing the point here. Sure, there are always elitists or fanboys or whatever term you want to use. What you have to understand here is that there are systems with individual strengths and weaknesses and thus different expectations from their users that you are not taking into consideration.

Consoles are considerably weaker when it comes to fast-paced and/or complex games like FPS. This is the reason why PC vs. Xbox 360 wars do not work, as was made clear by Microsoft recently. Maybe the more complex the game, the less it will work well with a joypad. To give an extreme example: Try imagining a flight sim like Falcon 4.0 on a console. Or something more action-oriented like TIE-Fighter.

On the other hand, consoles are made for games that only work subpar on the PC. I cannot imagine to play something like smash Bros on a keyboard, for example. Another example are splitscreen multiplayer games that work better on consoles, even more so if there are more than two people playing. So when I want to play something that is more the "load up and enjoy" type of game, I switch on a console. If I want a more complex game, I will likely choose a PC game.

With these differences come different expectations. The comparison between the original Baldur's Gate games for the PC and those spin-offs for the Xbox is unfair as both games have their strengths. One is for fast fun, especially in the co-op mode, comparable to a nice action movie; the other game is for the story, the characters and such, more like an Orson Wells movie.

To conclude this post: What you SEEM to be doing with DA2 and what you clearly did with Mass Effect 2 is combining these to different types of games into one mishmash. From a PC gamer point of view this looks like making the game more shallow, less complex and thus more like console-type RPGs. But if I want to play a less complex RPG there are always certain flashy jRPGs or actioners like the aforementioned Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance titles. RPGs will probably never get more complex on consoles than DAO. Many PC gamers feel that there were already concessions to consoles in DAO like the more action-oriented gameplay or overall linear structure compared to, say, e.g. Planescape: Torment. I have yet to understand why you seem to go the ME2 route and lean even closer to console games with DA2. You should at least be honest enough to say that you think there is not big enough a market for a multi-million dollar project to be profitable on the PC alone so you try to make it work on consoles, too, with said concessions. Instead you blame people's assumptions on elitist ranting.

Modifié par TM13h, 27 août 2010 - 08:03 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

TM13h wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
I would hope so David. I think you can understand where the fear of  consolization would come into play though.

I do understand where it comes from. It comes from a fear of consoles "tainting" PC games, and often a sense of elitism that console games (and gamers) are somehow less intelligent and discerning than their PC brethren. I don't consider it to be a good thing.

You are missing the point here. Sure, there are always elitists or fanboys or whatever term you want to use. What you have to understand here is that there are systems with individual strengths and weaknesses and thus different expectations from their users that you are not taking into consideration.

Consoles are considerably weaker when it comes to fast-paced and/or complex games like FPS. This is the reason why PC vs. Xbox 360 wars do not work, as was made clear by Microsoft recently. Maybe the more complex the game, the less it will work well with a joypad. To give an extreme example: Try imagining a flight sim like Falcon 4.0 on a console. Or something more action-oriented like TIE-Fighter.

On the other hand, consoles are made for games that only work subpar on the PC. I cannot imagine to play something like smash Bros on a keyboard, for example. Another example are splitscreen multiplayer games that work better on consoles, even more so if there are more than two people playing. So when I want to play something that is more the "load up and enjoy" type of game, I switch on a console. If I want a more complex game, I will likely choose a PC game.

With these differences come different expectations. The comparison between the original Baldur's Gate games for the PC and those spin-offs for the Xbox is unfair as both games have their strengths. One is for fast fun, especially in the co-op mode, comparable to a nice action movie; the other game is for the story, the characters and such, more like an Orson Wells movie.

To conclude this post: What you SEEM to be doing with DA2 and what you clearly did with Mass Effect 2 is combining these to different types of games into one mishmash. From a PC gamer point of view this looks like making the game more shallow, less complex and thus more like console-type RPGs. But if I want to play a less complex RPG there are always certain flashy jRPGs or actioners like the aforementioned Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance titles. RPGs will probably never get more complex on consoles than DAO. Many PC gamers feel that there were already concessions to consoles in DAO like the more action-oriented gameplay or overall linear structure compared to, say, e.g. Planescape: Torment. I have yet to understand why you seem to go the ME2 route and lean even closer to console games with DA2. You should at least be honest enough to say that you think there is not big enough a market for a multi-million dollar project to be profitable on the PC alone so you try to make it work on consoles, too, with said concessions. Instead you blame people's assumptions on elitist ranting.

Spot on. Kinda funny that Blizzard can sell a couple million copies of a pc only title in a day (SCII) yet all of a sudden there's no market for PC titles. I also hear theres this WoW game or something or other that's sold really well on PC's too.

Lets just be honest here, I think most of us already know where DA2 is heading "feel" wise. But hey this is the new ****!

[Sarevok Anchev]

David Gaider wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
Wow, ok, I was done...

If there's any sense of elitism, it's from people who say the undelined and bolded above, acting as if their benevolent acceptance is somehow superior to people who are just selective based on their own individual tastes.

I do not think I am a superior person because I prefer PC games to console games.  (I own a console, too.)
I also do not think I am a superior person because I like Citizen Kane.

I don't think that someone who prefers console games is less intelligent.
I also don't think someone who likes hip-hop music is less intelligent.

I will say that anyone who claims someone who doesn't want mayo in their tuna is some form of "elitism" is just trying to rile people up (most often because they don't care, one way or the other, about mayo or tuna.)

Really, David?  Nice way to trash a whole group of your fan base, just because they don't like console games.

NOW I'm done.

Wow...

You know, I don't really care if you don't want mayo in your tuna. Honestly.

The moment you or anyone else crosses the line into sneering down at anyone who does like mayo in their tuna, as if they were some sort of unintelligent half-breed who couldn't figure out what good tuna was with a road map, that's when you cross the line into something unpleasant. And, yes, there's many people on these forums who do just that-- on the console side too, incidentally.

So don't mistake one thing for the other. I was referring to the post who talked about the "fear of consolization".

And this, supposedly, all stems from Ray saying "Action RPG", as if that phrase alone was somehow anathema and clearly pointed to a single type of game-- as if "Action RPG" was any more clearly one thing than "RPG" itself.

Get over yourself. If you want to dislike elements of DA2 that you're aware of, go ahead. If you want to overreact to whatever info does come down the pipe, there's plenty of threads to do it in. This, however, is NOT info. That's what I'm saying.

Um, I think the "fear of consolization" comes from the fear, that console-games have a different gameplay-style then typical Pc-Games.
The difference in DA:O between Pc and Console-version shows this clearly...
Now in the 09/10 Gamestar Preview of DA2 they said, that the Strategic-Camera will NOT be included + the Controls were more Gamepad-oriented(=direct Action controls like in ME2) + less Character-Development(again: ME2-style);
they said it would seem like Mass Effect 2 in that regards.

I for myself am Console and Pc-Gamer. And i loved the Japan-RPG's on the SNES.
But my first real Computer-RPG was Baldur's Gate. And Baldur's Gate II is imo the pinnacle of all that kind of games.
KotoR 1+2 were good games, but i disliked that "consolish" style, because i felt like chained, because of the fixed camera(at 1 character, always following and behind the shoulders).
The controls in DA:O were a cool combination, but still all felt (to me) generalized and streamlined.

The ideas of Bioware to make the roleplaying-experience more intense are fine.
But many gamers are afraid(especially after the almost redundant character development in ME2)
of the "Console-style" of gaming; which is ofc that way, because of the controls and different philosphy behind console-gaming).

[Merced256]

SDNcN wrote...

Merced256 wrote...

True i think the open world aspect is a big draw, but overshadowed by what the whole franchise was based upon, violence, and often meaningless random violence.

Well, that stuff is the new ****.

I found it sorely ironic the advertisement that preceded that atrocity was for Halo.

FML.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Sarevok Anchev wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
Wow, ok, I was done...

If there's any sense of elitism, it's from people who say the undelined and bolded above, acting as if their benevolent acceptance is somehow superior to people who are just selective based on their own individual tastes.

I do not think I am a superior person because I prefer PC games to console games.  (I own a console, too.)
I also do not think I am a superior person because I like Citizen Kane.

I don't think that someone who prefers console games is less intelligent.
I also don't think someone who likes hip-hop music is less intelligent.

I will say that anyone who claims someone who doesn't want mayo in their tuna is some form of "elitism" is just trying to rile people up (most often because they don't care, one way or the other, about mayo or tuna.)

Really, David?  Nice way to trash a whole group of your fan base, just because they don't like console games.

NOW I'm done.

Wow...

You know, I don't really care if you don't want mayo in your tuna. Honestly.

The moment you or anyone else crosses the line into sneering down at anyone who does like mayo in their tuna, as if they were some sort of unintelligent half-breed who couldn't figure out what good tuna was with a road map, that's when you cross the line into something unpleasant. And, yes, there's many people on these forums who do just that-- on the console side too, incidentally.

So don't mistake one thing for the other. I was referring to the post who talked about the "fear of consolization".

And this, supposedly, all stems from Ray saying "Action RPG", as if that phrase alone was somehow anathema and clearly pointed to a single type of game-- as if "Action RPG" was any more clearly one thing than "RPG" itself.

Get over yourself. If you want to dislike elements of DA2 that you're aware of, go ahead. If you want to overreact to whatever info does come down the pipe, there's plenty of threads to do it in. This, however, is NOT info. That's what I'm saying.

Um, I think the "fear of consolization" comes from the fear, that console-games have a different gameplay-style then typical Pc-Games.
The difference in DA:O between Pc and Console-version shows this clearly...
Now in the 09/10 Gamestar Preview of DA2 they said, that the Strategic-Camera will NOT be included + the Controls were more Gamepad-oriented(=direct Action controls like in ME2) + less Character-Development(again: ME2-style);
they said it would seem like Mass Effect 2 in that regards.

I for myself am Console and Pc-Gamer. And i loved the Japan-RPG's on the SNES.
But my first real Computer-RPG was Baldur's Gate. And Baldur's Gate II is imo the pinnacle of all that kind of games.
KotoR 1+2 were good games, but i disliked that "consolish" style, because i felt like chained, because of the fixed camera(at 1 character, always following and behind the shoulders).
The controls in DA:O were a cool combination, but still all felt (to me) generalized and streamlined.

The ideas of Bioware to make the roleplaying-experience more intense are fine.
But many gamers are afraid(especially after the almost redundant character development in ME2)
of the "Console-style" of gaming; which is ofc that way, because of the controls and different philosphy behind console-gaming).

ME2 had character development? I must have missed that part.

[Aratham Darksight]

Sarevok Anchev wrote...
Um, I think the "fear of consolization" comes from the fear, that console-games have a different gameplay-style then typical Pc-Games.
The difference in DA:O between Pc and Console-version shows this clearly...
Now in the 09/10 Gamestar Preview of DA2 they said, that the Strategic-Camera will NOT be included + the Controls were more Gamepad-oriented(=direct Action controls like in ME2) + less Character-Development(again: ME2-style);
they said it would seem like Mass Effect 2 in that regards.

Could you clarify what specifically you mean by "direct action controls" and "less character development"? Because the way I understand them, neither of those descriptions fits the demo I played at Gamescom.