NvVanity wrote...
"finishes first bag of popcorn"
Gotta say i'm impressed how one article can lead so many people into rants/debate/BS-speculation over whether or not RPG has an A or C in the beginning for DA2.
"Goes to get second bag of popcorn"
Theagg wrote...
NvVanity wrote...
"finishes first bag of popcorn"
Gotta say i'm impressed how one article can lead so many people into rants/debate/BS-speculation over whether or not RPG has an A or C in the beginning for DA2.
"Goes to get second bag of popcorn"
Read Steven Pinkers, "The Stuff of Thought" to see just how important single words and the semantics involved can be to people
slimgrin wrote...
Theagg wrote...
I will wait to see actual in game footage etc but on that note I'm still wholly unconvinced that the combat actions ( not animations ) needed to be faster. That just wasn't a particular problem, from a PC perspective anyway.
Lol. Yet another thing we disagree on.
I thought the battles took excessively long, with too much downtime waiting for orders to be carried out. It's not surprising given my back ground with fighting/melee type games. I only got into rpg's much later.
Tabletop games: Serious Business.Theagg wrote...
slimgrin wrote...
Theagg wrote...
I will wait to see actual in game footage etc but on that note I'm still wholly unconvinced that the combat actions ( not animations ) needed to be faster. That just wasn't a particular problem, from a PC perspective anyway.
Lol. Yet another thing we disagree on.
I thought the battles took excessively long, with too much downtime waiting for orders to be carried out. It's not surprising given my back ground with fighting/melee type games. I only got into rpg's much later.
Ahaa, whereas I am coming from the perspective of a tabletop wargamer, where some times, one round of combat can last an hour !
Dr. wonderful wrote...
Tabletop games: Serious Business.Theagg wrote...
slimgrin wrote...
Theagg wrote...
I will wait to see actual in game footage etc but on that note I'm still wholly unconvinced that the combat actions ( not animations ) needed to be faster. That just wasn't a particular problem, from a PC perspective anyway.
Lol. Yet another thing we disagree on.
I thought the battles took excessively long, with too much downtime waiting for orders to be carried out. It's not surprising given my back ground with fighting/melee type games. I only got into rpg's much later.
Ahaa, whereas I am coming from the perspective of a tabletop wargamer, where some times, one round of combat can last an hour !
I should get involve in some...Got any advice for a Noob?
In Exile wrote...
Merced256 wrote...
Aren't you the same bro who has gone on and on about how the important parts of an RPG are story and roleplay. So you're going to tell me that you are also a hardcore metagaymer that min/maxes and only rolls with NPCs that buff your character rather than characters who you like. Quite the contradiction there i think.
There is no contradiction there. I'm not some PnP gamer. You're talking to the person that thinks ME and ME2 are superior in every possible aspect of role-play to DA (because VO is superior to non-VO, restricted choice and limited personality is better than freedom), so avoid trying to fit me into your nice little box, because you're wrong. More to the point, if you really read my posts, you'd know that there is no bigger fan of storyline vs. gameplay segregation than me (see JRPGs). In other words, I absolutely min-max the party versus use characters that I like. I also happen to think shooter combat is superior to RPG combat. Don't chest thump just because you play a game a particular way.
That being said, even if I didn't, that's not the point. Because intentionally gimping yourself doesn't make the game tactical.I'll give my most recent play through as an example. I wanted to play a 2H warrior, this meant i essentially had to bring leliana for lock picking and SoC.
I don't use rogues. Lockpicking is useless aside from XP farming. I also think 2H suck (per above) so I never used them.Wynne for heals since 2h's only defense is armor and avoidance via CC. For the last slot i could've went with any of the other characters. I chose to have morrigan tag along almost exclusively because she was my characters LI. That group by your definition is super sub optimal amirite? I mean you just said a shield warrior can out dps a 2h warrior and take less damage doing it. Obviously my play through would've been easier had i went that route or chosen to take alistair.
Yes, it is sub-optimal. Except for Morrigan, who is a mage, so if you spec. her right she's an absolute beast.I DIDN'T. I also went with a slightly sub-optimal stat allocation in order to survive a little better, gearing was also changed to aid in this. So clearly not everyone min/maxes and those that do probably should have a easier time beating the game on whatever difficulty. A game that emphasizes Story and Roleplay, as you apparently wish for it to be, should never really be balanced - at least not exclusively, around min/maxing.
That has nothing to do with anything. I'm saying quit simply: if you want to claim that a game is tactical, it needs to actually require tactics to beat. Gameplay is completely different from story and roleplay. We're talking about a game where an ogre can crush Cailain in 3 seconds in a cut-scene whereas he can pound your sorry behind on nightmare for 3 minutes and with crowd heals from spirit healers in gameplay.
So if you gimp yourself and then say the game is tactical, the same applies to ME2.So what exactly is your beef here? ME2 had virtually no min/maxing, and even had you done it you'd really only be slightly better off than you were beforehand. The game could be beaten with out ever leveling, let alone actually activating a skill, yours or your ally's. Are you really going to try and compare that with DA:O?
Have you played ME2 on insanity? You need effective weapon load outs to begin with; using SMGs on armoured opponents while you get swarmed is a quick way to die. Powers become effective. Without research, the game is absolutely brutal; one YMIR mech is very difficult to tear down.
That being said, I absolutely compare ME2 to DA. If you play both games to win, there's nothing tactical about either. If you happen to suck at them (poor builds vs. poor aiming/no research), then you can come up with some argument about the game being tactical, but that's just gimping yourself.
Modifié par Merced256, 28 août 2010 - 06:30 .
TM13h wrote...
David Gaider wrote...
I do understand where it comes from. It comes from a fear of consoles "tainting" PC games, and often a sense of elitism that console games (and gamers) are somehow less intelligent and discerning than their PC brethren. I don't consider it to be a good thing.CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
I would hope so David. I think you can understand where the fear of consolization would come into play though.
You are missing the point here. Sure, there are always elitists or fanboys or whatever term you want to use. What you have to understand here is that there are systems with individual strengths and weaknesses and thus different expectations from their users that you are not taking into consideration.[Tsuga's Addition: they understand this quite well. They're just hoping we don't notice their sleight of hand attempt to blend to two.]
Consoles are considerably weaker when it comes to fast-paced and/or complex games like FPS. This is the reason why PC vs. Xbox 360 wars do not work, as was made clear by Microsoft recently. Maybe the more complex the game, the less it will work well with a joypad. To give an extreme example: Try imagining a flight sim like Falcon 4.0 on a console. Or something more action-oriented like TIE-Fighter.[Tsuga's Addition: Ah, the Totally Games X-Wing and TIE Fighter games--that takes me back...]
On the other hand, consoles are made for games that only work subpar on the PC. I cannot imagine to play something like smash Bros on a keyboard, for example. Another example are splitscreen multiplayer games that work better on consoles, even more so if there are more than two people playing. So when I want to play something that is more the "load up and enjoy" type of game, I switch on a console. If I want a more complex game, I will likely choose a PC game. [Tsuga's Addition: simple games are for gamepads and do little for me. Give me greater complexity and choice any day.]
With these differences come different expectations. The comparison between the original Baldur's Gate games for the PC and those spin-offs for the Xbox is unfair as both games have their strengths. One is for fast fun, especially in the co-op mode, comparable to a nice action movie; the other game is for the story, the characters and such, more like an Orson Wells movie.[Tsuga's Addition: hmmm, a rice cake or a surf 'n' turf dinner--which to choose...]
To conclude this post: What you SEEM to be doing with DA2 and what you clearly did with Mass Effect 2 is combining these to different types of games into one mishmash. From a PC gamer point of view this looks like making the game more shallow, less complex and thus more like console-type RPGs [Tsuga's Addition: bingo!!!]. But if I want to play a less complex RPG there are always certain flashy jRPGs or actioners like the aforementioned Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance titles. RPGs will probably never get more complex on consoles than DAO. Many PC gamers feel that there were already [Tsuga's Addition: too many!!!] concessions to consoles in DAO like the more action-oriented gameplay or overall linear structure compared to, say, e.g. Planescape: Torment. I have yet to understand why you seem to go the ME2 route and lean even closer to console games with DA2. You should at least be honest enough to say that you think there is not big enough a market [Tsuga's Addition: oh, the market is big enough for BioWare, but they're EAWare now, remember?] for a multi-million dollar project to be profitable on the PC alone so you try to make it work on consoles, too, with said concessions. Instead you blame people's assumptions on elitist ranting.
Modifié par Tsuga C, 28 août 2010 - 07:52 .
Guest_Kordaris_*
Indeed. The same game that is completely different from DA1 and more similiar to ME2. And we all know how much of "RPG" ME2 was...David Gaider wrote...
Clearly some people have this aversion built into how their precious RPG's are labeled, but DA2 wasn't struck by lightning the moment this phrase was mentioned-- it's still the same game it was yesterday. Just sayin'.
Merced256 wrote...
I'm still trying to figure out how any of this drivel pertained to my argument.
Kordaris wrote...
Indeed. The same game that is completely different from DA1 and more similiar to ME2. And we all know how much of "RPG" ME2 was...
AlanC9 wrote...
Kordaris wrote...
Indeed. The same game that is completely different from DA1 and more similiar to ME2. And we all know how much of "RPG" ME2 was...
Yes, we do. It was an RPG
Guest_Kordaris_*
Since your corporation now appereantly sees console market and consumers as its main target, your view is understandable.David Gaider wrote...
Ido understand where it comes from. It comes from a fear of consoles "tainting" PC games, and often a sense of elitism that console games (and gamers) are somehow less intelligent and discerning than their PC brethren. I don't consider it to be a good thing.
Guest_Kordaris_*
It was a shooter with an RPG label to make some gamers feel they are more dignified. I watched how my friend played Modern Warfare and most of the time it looked the same.NvVanity wrote...
Yes, we do. It was an RPG
Kordaris wrote...
It was a shooter with an RPG label to make some gamers feel they are more dignified. I watched how my friend played Modern Warfare and most of the time it looked the same.NvVanity wrote...
Yes, we do. It was an RPG
Kordaris wrote...
It was a shooter with an RPG label to make some gamers feel they are more dignified. I watched how my friend played Modern Warfare and most of the time it looked the same.NvVanity wrote...
Yes, we do. It was an RPG
I'm not shooting anyone. My character is shooting someone.slimgrin wrote...
You're shooting someone...what do you expect?
No it wasn't, but neither was ME1.AlanC9 wrote...
Yes, we do. It was an RPGKordaris wrote...
Indeed. The same game that is completely different from DA1 and more similiar to ME2. And we all know how much of "RPG" ME2 was...
Have you ever seen medieval combat? It was slow.slimgrin wrote...
I thought the battles took excessively long, with too much downtime waiting for orders to be carried out. It's not surprising given my back ground with fighting/melee type games. I only got into rpg's much later.
Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 28 août 2010 - 07:48 .
Guest_Kordaris_*
NvVanity wrote...
Really? I played MW2 and got cursed out by 12 year olds using overpowered grenade launchers on weapons and that called me a hard-scoper.
Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I'm not shooting anyone. My character is shooting someone.slimgrin wrote...
It might be a visceral experience for him, but it isn't for me. And whether it is a visceral experience for him should be decided my me.
Modifié par The Edge, 28 août 2010 - 08:01 .
Kordaris wrote...
NvVanity wrote...
Really? I played MW2 and got cursed out by 12 year olds using overpowered grenade launchers on weapons and that called me a hard-scoper.
MarketGaideroBattleMod ON:
Your attitude It comes from a fear of 12 year olds "tainting" PC games, and often a sense
of elitism that younger gamers are somehow less intelligent
and discerning than their older brethren. I don't consider it to be a good
thing.
NvVanity wrote...
Kordaris wrote...
NvVanity wrote...
Really? I played MW2 and got cursed out by 12 year olds using overpowered grenade launchers on weapons and that called me a hard-scoper.
MarketGaideroBattleMod ON:
Your attitude It comes from a fear of 12 year olds "tainting" PC games, and often a sense
of elitism that younger gamers are somehow less intelligent
and discerning than their older brethren. I don't consider it to be a good
thing.
I like how you ignore the rest of my post when I clearly proved you wrong.
And I'm just being serious there. I go into matchmaking end up getting yelled at by younger kids. I'm just being a realist. Anyone who's played MW2 can agree with me, just go on the Infinityward forums.
Guest_Kordaris_*
So you already have a good training for upcoming DA2 forums.NvVanity wrote...
And I'm just being serious there. I go into matchmaking end up getting yelled at by younger kids.
nightcobra8928 wrote...
NvVanity wrote...
Kordaris wrote...
NvVanity wrote...
Really? I played MW2 and got cursed out by 12 year olds using overpowered grenade launchers on weapons and that called me a hard-scoper.
MarketGaideroBattleMod ON:
Your attitude It comes from a fear of 12 year olds "tainting" PC games, and often a sense
of elitism that younger gamers are somehow less intelligent
and discerning than their older brethren. I don't consider it to be a good
thing.
I like how you ignore the rest of my post when I clearly proved you wrong.
And I'm just being serious there. I go into matchmaking end up getting yelled at by younger kids. I'm just being a realist. Anyone who's played MW2 can agree with me, just go on the Infinityward forums.
it's wonderful to know that people still judge a whole demographic based on a few individuals, now i feel all warm inside
Kordaris wrote...
So you already have a good training for upcoming DA2 forums.NvVanity wrote...
And I'm just being serious there. I go into matchmaking end up getting yelled at by younger kids.
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