645 réponses à ce sujet

[condiments1]

slimgrin wrote...
I said any rpg that relies on motor skills, not action game that relies on motor skills. The term 'action' is added onto rpg, adjusting the definition, not rewriting it.

This entirely relies on your muddy definition on what defines an RPG. To me, Devil May Cry 3 has just as much RPG elements(Weapon/ability upgrades and class choice)as Mass Effect 2 but its considered an 'action' game because that is what people define the series as, and whereas ME2 is 'RPG' because it comes from a RPG developer.

[condiments1]

slimgrin wrote...

It's what Capcom defined the series as. They happen to be the company that made the game. You know more about making games than Capcom?

Nice try but this hardly addresses my point. To me, Capcom is actually correct in their assestment that DMC3 is an action game with RPG elements. However, by your definition wouldn't it be considered an RPG regardless of developer label? It has all the components of an 'Action RPG' as defined by you, so wouldn't that be the case?

I have no problem admitting ME2 is a TPS action game with RPG elements, but I hardly think that makes it less of a game. I'm just not going to stretch definitions to fit my favorite game.

[condiments1]

slimgrin wrote...

An action game with rpg elements is not an action rpg.

Never mind though, you're simply arguing the obvious.

Just so we're clear on your stance, you say ME2 is no more an rpg than Devil May Cry? We'll see what someone else has to say on the subject. I'm signing out. 

Again you didn't address my point. I think by being so loose with the definition of an RPG opens up a floodgate of definition problems. My example of, "how come Devil May Cry 3 is an action game and ME2 is a RPG when they have similiar features?" is just the tip of the iceberg.

Modifié par condiments1, 29 août 2010 - 03:38 .

[Hollingdale]

condiments1 wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

An action game with rpg elements is not an action rpg.

Never mind though, you're simply arguing the obvious.

Just so we're clear on your stance, you say ME2 is no more an rpg than Devil May Cry? We'll see what someone else has to say on the subject. I'm signing out. 

Again you didn't address my point. I think by being so loose with the definition of an RPG opens up a floodgate of definition problems. My example of, "how come Devil May Cry 3 is an action game and ME2 is a RPG when they have similiar features?" is just the tip of the iceberg.

ME2 is an RPG because it's storybased and don't spart spouting some BS about it having less story than it's predecessor because it has more. I must say though, that you are either a troll or being deliberately ignorant here as it's rather obvious why ME2 is an RPG while Devil May Cry 3 is not.

Furthermore why are you so stuck up on genres? Could it be because you automatically consider RPG's superior to other genres that you want to prove ME2 inferior simply by refusing to call it an RPG? Because that's just a very obvious form of guilt by association. How about actually pointing out what you didnt like and why you didnt like it instead?

Sigh, I just knew this thread would attract a certain kind of people.

Modifié par Hollingdale, 29 août 2010 - 03:48 .

[Tactical_Chunder]

NHL 11's, "Be a Pro" mode, has more RPG elements than Devil May Cry.

[condiments1]

Hollingdale wrote...

ME2 is an RPG because it's storybased and don't spart spouting some BS about it having less story than it's predecessor because it has more. I must say though, that you are either a troll or being deliberately ignorant here as it's rather obvious why ME2 is an RPG while Devil May Cry 3 is not.

Furthermore why are you so stuck up on genres? Could it be because you automatically consider RPG's superior to other genres that you want to prove ME2 inferior simply by refusing to call it an RPG? Because that's just a very obvious form of guilt by association. How about actually pointing out what you didnt like and why you didnt like it instead?

Sigh, I just knew this thread would attract a certain kind of people.

"Certain kind of people"? It seems like rather than addressing my points you would address me as a troll. I'm merely challenging the convention that a game isn't a RPG because the developer says so. Look a little deeper.

Why so condescending? I was merely stating an observation I made considering that Devil May Cry 3 boasts just as many RPG features as ME2(ability/weapon upgrades and character classes). Its fair point, and I'd like to see an argument against it.

Where did I state ME2 was less of a game because I considered it an TPS action game? In fact I state in one of my previous posts that IT DOESN'T CHANGE MY OPINION ABOUT IT(Protip: I liked it). Way to not read my posts, and lump in me in "with a certain kind of people".

Modifié par condiments1, 29 août 2010 - 04:07 .

[Sneelonz]

Wait. Did that guy say that Dragon Age: Origins had a lush world and has exploration?

[addiction21]

Sneelonz wrote...

Wait. Did that guy say that Dragon Age: Origins had a lush world and has exploration?

Well your maps start out kinda empty and fills out as you walk around, I guess that is some kind of exploration...

[Hollingdale]

condiments1 wrote...

Hollingdale wrote...

ME2 is an RPG because it's storybased and don't spart spouting some BS about it having less story than it's predecessor because it has more. I must say though, that you are either a troll or being deliberately ignorant here as it's rather obvious why ME2 is an RPG while Devil May Cry 3 is not.

Furthermore why are you so stuck up on genres? Could it be because you automatically consider RPG's superior to other genres that you want to prove ME2 inferior simply by refusing to call it an RPG? Because that's just a very obvious form of guilt by association. How about actually pointing out what you didnt like and why you didnt like it instead?

Sigh, I just knew this thread would attract a certain kind of people.

"Certain kind of people"? It seems like rather than addressing my points you would address me as a troll. I'm merely challenging the convention that a game isn't a RPG because the developer says so. Look a little deeper.

Why so condescending? I was merely stating an observation I made considering that Devil May Cry 3 boasts just as many RPG features as ME2(ability/weapon upgrades and character classes). Its fair point, and I'd like to see an argument against it.

Where did I state ME2 was less of a game because I considered it an TPS action game? In fact I state in one of my previous posts that IT DOESN'T CHANGE MY OPINION ABOUT IT(Protip: I liked it). Way to not read my posts, and lump in me in "with a certain kind of people".

Yeah and you completely ignore the actual story that enables roleplaying when comparing ME2 to Devil May Cry as if though you've failed to notice the RP part of the term RPG which strikes me as kind of weird, hencewhy I suggested that perhaps you don't want ME2 to be called an RPG because that in itself is a form of denotion to those who hold certain genres above others. You may deny this of course, but why else you would be so eager to prove that ME2 is not an RPG when it obviously is?

And with a certain kind of people, I meant the kind of people who focus on labels and genres rather than the actual elements that they contain and are made up of. You know, abstractions rather than objects.

Modifié par Hollingdale, 29 août 2010 - 05:06 .

[DragonRageGT]

slimgrin wrote...

After reading numerous posts on the subject, I'm going to boldly state that any rpg whose gameplay relies on the player's reflexive skill and fine motor controls should properly be called an action rpg. I don't mean that disparagingly. ME1 and ME2, by my definition, are action rpg's. So are Oblivion, Fallout 3, Sacred 2, Diablo, The Witcher, Divine Divinity, Two Worlds, Ego Draconis, etc.. (note that I've made no comment as to the quality of these games. That's a separate issue).

Most may disagree, but I don't think the title of rpg bestows anything special on a game any more than the word 'fine' before 'art' validates an oil painting over an illustration for a magazine.

But if most did disagreed, would you reconsider your view? I still prefer Kalfear's description of how a game that uses combat, regardless the mechanics, to throw us at the Story and immerse us deep into it is a RPG while a game that uses the story just to throw us at combat, and more combat, and more combat is an action game with RPG elements.

ME is pretty much the latter while The Witcher is pretty much the former, imho. I mean, come on, infinite spawn of enemies in the Tali recruitment mission? And prolly in other places too if you look for it.

[AlanC9]

Hollingdale wrote...
ME2 is an RPG because it's storybased and don't spart spouting some BS about it having less story than it's predecessor because it has more. I must say though, that you are either a troll or being deliberately ignorant here as it's rather obvious why ME2 is an RPG while Devil May Cry 3 is not.

It's not obvious to me, but that's because I've never played Devil May Cry. Why doesn't that count as an RPG?

[tpryan01]

This is solely about targeted marketing. They would rather target Assasins Creed fans because that franchise outsold the highest selling RPG and EA sees more potential there. They arent taking into account that AA made so much money because of its gargantuan marketing budget.  (Super Bowl Ad) 

I wrote a whole long analysis of it here

Rpg
Fable II (X360) 3.71 million
Fallout 3 (X360) 3.25 million

Action
Assassin's Creed (X360) 4.91 million
Assassin's Creed II (X360) 4.06 million

compare the 2 covers

Modifié par tpryan01, 29 août 2010 - 05:41 .

[Dr. wonderful]

tpryan01 wrote...

This is solely about targeted marketing. They would rather target Assasins Creed fans because that franchise outsold the highest selling RPG and EA sees more potential there. They arent taking into account that AA made so much money because of its gargantuan marketing budget.  (Super Bowl Ad) 

I wrote a whole long analysis of it here

Rpg
Fable II (X360) 3.71 million
Fallout 3 (X360) 3.25 million

Action
Assassin's Creed (X360) 4.91 million
Assassin's Creed II (X360) 4.06 million

compare the 2 covers

Maker, They sure do like a lot of Red and white.

[tpryan01]

also Assasins Creed is about someone in the future having flashbacks to things that happened in the past... sound familiar

[condiments1]

Hollingdale wrote...

Yeah and you completely ignore the actual story that enables roleplaying when comparing ME2 to Devil May Cry as if though you've failed to notice the RP part of the term RPG which strikes me as kind of weird, hencewhy I suggested that perhaps you don't want ME2 to be called an RPG because that in itself is a form of denotion to those who hold certain genres above others. You may deny this of course, but why else you would be so eager to prove that ME2 is not an RPG when it obviously is?

And with a certain kind of people, I meant the kind of people who focus on labels and genres rather than the actual elements that they contain and are made up of. You know, abstractions rather than objects.

There are no storyline decisions to be made in games like Diablo 1/2 which is widely considered by many to be one of the best action RPGs. So...its not a RPG by your definition? Or the fact that jRPGs there is literally no story interaction on any level...

I could use the same argument against yourself, considering your insistence that Mass Effect 2 IS an RPG despite some discrepancies somehow implies that you hold the RPG label over others.

Modifié par condiments1, 29 août 2010 - 06:17 .

[tpryan01]

slimgrin wrote...

Fable 2 sold more than Fallout 3 ?

I have died a little on the inside.

those #s don't include playstation or pc. The Pc numbers arent available on that site, but

RPG
Final Fantasy XIII (PS3) 4.24 mil (I think this is an exception to the action sells better than RPG Rule)
Fallout 3 (PS3) 2,27 mil

Action
Assassin's Creed II (PS3) 3.84 mil
Assassin's Creed (PS3) 3.78 mil

[BP20125810]

I think Dragon Age is more of a story driven game. I didn't play it for the gameplay.

[DragonRageGT]

slimgrin wrote...

I wasn't aware of any infinite re-spawn in ME2. Maybe I missed it. There was infinite re-spawn in TW1 though.

My thinking is this: In all my examples, you are still defining a role, a specific character. You don't do that in an action game with rpg elements, like say Arkham Asylum or Devil May Cry. 

To me, the word 'action' simply denotes the emphasis on fast-twitch combat, something DA:O and turn-based rpg's lack.

An action rpg can still have terrific story like The Witcher, or solid tactics like ME2.

Perhaps it's only on Insanity diff but I had a thread asking about it a while back and it's confirmed. But The Witcher also has repellent amulets for some type of monsters so we're not forced to fight them. And they give no xp at some point so the only reason to fight them are RP reasons (plus alchemic ingredients hunting).  Hmm.. come to think of it, the big xp ones also respawn and we can kill them until we get sick of it.  Anyway, TW for me is a classic example of solid RPG with action elements, whereas ME, for me, is a Shooter with RPG elements.

Heck, I had more fun replaying Isaac Clarke some 8 times then John Shepard three times in ME2. And yet they feel the very same type of game for me.

But even if we consider both games as action-RPG's, they are still great games. DA:O has a lot of action too. Only, I dont rush to it just because I can. There are much more stuff to do than just combat. TW too.

What I really would love to see in Dragon Age is a better codex system because it is crazy! You can find anything in TW codex with a quick browsing. DA requires infinitee patience to find something if you didn't read it right at the moment you got the info.

Also, some alchemy system like TW, Gothics or Risen's and definitely a weapons forging system like Risen's or Gothic 3's . Plus, prospecting ore and gathering ingredients are always fun, to me.

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
But to what extent did you create Shepard?  Any?  Was there any aspect of Shepard that was yours that you didn't need to amend to suit the game's presentation of his behaviour?

I created Shepard insofar as I could decide how Shepard acted. You have to appreciate for me that I am not a very detail oriented person by nature. So the fact that I want Shepard to be largely pragmatic but generally heroic (in the self-sacrificing, save everyone sense) is my direction for him, and the game largely allows me to create a Shepard who within the confines of story. At the same time, if I want a confrontational and violent Shepard, I can do this.

Remember, to me roleplaying is like method acting as opposed to writing.

Marionetten wrote...
That's a matter of having the character
react to the world. Not a matter of having the world react to the
character.

It's something I can accomplish on my own as the
character I'm roleplaying. As such, its appeal is limited.

I don't understand. If you're saying your special mental experience is the most important part to you, I appreciated that and pointed out that many people disagree with my position. I am just saying that a silent VO is antithetical to what I consider roleplaying.

[In Exile]

condiments1 wrote...
Nice try but this hardly addresses my point. To me, Capcom is actually correct in their assestment that DMC3 is an action game with RPG elements. However, by your definition wouldn't it be considered an RPG regardless of developer label? It has all the components of an 'Action RPG' as defined by you, so wouldn't that be the case?

I have no problem admitting ME2 is a TPS action game with RPG elements, but I hardly think that makes it less of a game. I'm just not going to stretch definitions to fit my favorite game.

You're mixing your neccesary and sufficient conditions. What slimgrin is saying is that for an action RPG, it is neccesary that the combat is driven by motor skill, but not that it is sufficient. You are saying that motor skill is sufficient to make something an action game. These are two very different  points.

Put another way, slimgrim says: if something is RPG and that something relies on motor skills, then that something is an action RPG; you say: if something relies on motor skills, then that something is an action game. These are not the same arguments at all.

More broadly, DMC3 lacks features that ME2 has. For one, Dante is a fixed character with no gender, background or appearance customization. Two, there is no interactive dialogue. Three, there is no variable outcome to missions based on player choice.

We can say that all of the above are either neccesary or sufficient for an RPG, and that affects our definition.

Modifié par In Exile, 29 août 2010 - 06:58 .

[AdamNW]

slimgrin wrote...

Fable 2 sold more than Fallout 3 ?

I have died a little on the inside.

This

Fable 2 is sickeningly awful