645 réponses à ce sujet

[Onyx Jaguar]

Tsuga C wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
But it does mean something pretty clear.  BG series, NWN and KotOR aren't action RPGs, Jade Empire and Mass Effect are.  It's just being blurred because they want to be able to say it's changed to a new audience while  playing down that change to their established fans.

Now you're playing with fire, Wulfram.   Remember the Roman saying, "Truth begets hatred." 

*lights a torch* Neverwinter Nights would have worked better with an active system since you are only controlling one character, the system it uses makes it unnecessarily tedious as micromanaging one character instead of a set wastes the skill of a player on either front

*throws torch at a warehouse* 

[SirOccam]

Wulfram wrote...

SirOccam wrote...
It's not that it means nothing, exactly, just that it means different things to different people. There are threads in here that go on for dozens of pages about what "RPG" means.

Anyway, it's not wrong to use words with relative meaning...you just assume a risk of misunderstanding just like every time you communicate.

But it does mean something pretty clear.  BG series, NWN and KotOR aren't action RPGs, Jade Empire and Mass Effect are.  It's just being blurred because they want to be able to say it's changed to a new audience while  playing down that change to their established fans.

It may seem clear to you, but others might disagree. There's no hard and fast rule for defining these things. For example, someone could say KotOR is an action RPG. You might say they're wrong, and even give them a list of reasons a mile long showing why you think they're wrong, and you might even change their mind, but you can't disprove them.

[Raxxman]

What exactly is wrong with Bioware going down the action route anyhow?



I mean the combat choices are either action or real time strategy right?



As a strategy game, DA:O Is woefully limiting. I'm sorry, but it really lacks the finer scripting of a tight single player experience that say StarCraft 2 has, sure you may not like the game, but I'd be hard pressed to believe you if you said you could name a better singleplayer RTS experience. RTS's are much harder to do well, the AI has to be able to challenge you, and that requires complex scripting. In DA:O nearly every enemy could be tackled using the same tactic, and the scripted combat sequences were handled with far too much brute force, placing you in situations that you'd never willingly enter. The game boils down to a DPS race of you vs them, and all the difficulty level does is tilt the scales in their favour, while adding no real strategic depth.



In comparison an action game is much easier to fudge. An 'action rpg' doesn't need complex AI to be entertaining, it doesn't need to force you into contrived situations to challenge you.



I'll be paying attention to this, Mass Effect 2 has about the most entertaining combat of any Bioware game, While the combat doesn't really match the pure shooter heavyweights in terms of polish, it still functions well enough to be fun, and that's most important.

[Collider]

What exactly is wrong with Bioware going down the action route anyhow?

It defiles the holy name of RPGs everywhere!

[Estel78]

bjdbwea wrote...

I think so too. And indeed, as DA:O and Fallout 3 among other games have proved, even on consoles there's a significant market for good and proper RPGs. There are obviously many console gamers who enjoy depth and "lengthy" dialogues and everything else. And who don't need every game to be actionified and made more "immediate" and "accessible". So why don't you just develop another game for these players - on PC and consoles - instead of changing the formula in a way that makes it appear as if you think that most players - on PC and consoles - need everything to be made simpler and easier and more superficial?

So you're saying making you characters react faster when issuing commands and not allowing the camera to be pulled back as much is taking away depth? Well, i disagree. And what is that about lengthy dialog? Of course DA2 will have plenty of dialog, that's what Bioware does, cram plenty of dialog in their games and i don't think that'll change anytime soon.

Modifié par Estel78, 26 août 2010 - 11:28 .

[In Exile]

Reaverwind wrote...
Or dungeon-crawler. A number of us reserve the action-RPG label for games like Deus Ex, TES, Gothic and the Witcher series, which rely heavily on player input for combat.

But all games rely heavily on player input for combat - that's what makes them games. The real issue is whether there is timing involved, but even then, it's the kind of timing that matters.

Look at the Witcher - your aiming and hiting is entirely based on character skill. Geralt hits better depending on his ranks in a weapon and the weapon style + enemy being faced. All that was affected by your timing in the Witcher was whether or not you had a combo. 

Now look at DA, with tactics disabled. Each action requires input from the player. If  I want Morrigan to cast cone of cold and then Wynne and Alistair to shatter enemies, I have to time the action, move my party out of the way and then select Wynne to cast Rock Fist and Alistair to use Shiled Bash. Because the engine is real-time, there is a timed constraint to these moves. I am just controlling them at a higher level of abstraction.

So what all of this comes down to is that these definitions are very arbitrary and poorly refined. I get what an action RPG is versus an actual RPG in principle, but IMO we lost absolute determination of attacks by character skill when we lost true turn-based RPGs.

DA:O, with no a 1 action queqe and no auto-pause for rounds is very action-y.

[Rubbish Hero]

Raxxman wrote...

What exactly is wrong with Bioware going down the action route anyhow?.

Dragon Age big spirit baldurs gate CRPG root.
Big dollar flap in winds, Boware betray abandon post we must.

[Onyx Jaguar]

To expand on my previous point



In ultima (the old ones, never played 5-9) when you play with one character it is very active, yet turn based but can almost feel like an Action RPG. However it changes dramatically when you have a party.



Neverwinter Nights (the Bioware one) on the other hand adopted the strict ruleset (that had been used on the Infinity Engine) which called for real-time phases, yet took out the knees of the system that had been so successful in Baldur's Gate because of a lack of party.



Which is why the Ultima games play better from a combat standpoint.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Rubbish Hero wrote...

Raxxman wrote...

What exactly is wrong with Bioware going down the action route anyhow?.

Big dollar flap in winds, Boware betray abandon post we must.

Bioware has abandoned Mech Games!

Everyone has. 

[cowsaysoink]

Does this mean it won't have the same gameplay as DA:O? If so... BioWare, I am disappoint.

[ErichHartmann]

Collider wrote...

What exactly is wrong with Bioware going down the action route anyhow?

It defiles the holy name of RPGs everywhere!

Funny you should say that because the are many different types of RPGs.

[John Epler]

ErichHartmann wrote...

Collider wrote...

What exactly is wrong with Bioware going down the action route anyhow?

It defiles the holy name of RPGs everywhere!

Funny you should say that because the are many different types of RPGs.

Didn't we just leave this party?

[Onyx Jaguar]

JohnEpler wrote...

ErichHartmann wrote...

Collider wrote...

What exactly is wrong with Bioware going down the action route anyhow?

It defiles the holy name of RPGs everywhere!

Funny you should say that because the are many different types of RPGs.

Didn't we just leave this party?

Well this certainly was unpredictable

[Wulfram]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

*lights a torch* Neverwinter Nights would have worked better with an active system since you are only controlling one character, the system it uses makes it unnecessarily tedious as micromanaging one character instead of a set wastes the skill of a player on either front

*throws torch at a warehouse* 

Well, I'd say that the best way to improve NWN would have been if you controlled more than one character, but I wouldn't disagree with your statement otherwise.

Sir Occam:  People who call KotOR an Action RPG certainly are wrong

[In Exile]

Wulfram wrote...
Sir Occam:  People who call KotOR an Action RPG certainly are wrong

Despite lacking isometric like DA2 might? Despite being a straight console port? KoTOR was certainly no BG in terms of its mechanics.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Wulfram wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

*lights a torch* Neverwinter Nights would have worked better with an active system since you are only controlling one character, the system it uses makes it unnecessarily tedious as micromanaging one character instead of a set wastes the skill of a player on either front

*throws torch at a warehouse* 

Well, I'd say that the best way to improve NWN would have been if you controlled more than one character, but I wouldn't disagree with your statement otherwise.

Yep that would have been the ideal situation

Hell even with just 3 characters it would have been roses and oranges

[Collider]

They'll do away with the RPG genre just as they did the mech shooter genre. The past will tell the future!

[Onyx Jaguar]

In Exile wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
Sir Occam:  People who call KotOR an Action RPG certainly are wrong

Despite lacking isometric like DA2 might? Despite being a straight console port? KoTOR was certainly no BG in terms of its mechanics.

It wasn't that different from the system NWN adopted (just not ad&d, or was it D&D? can't remember).  Press and wait and intervene when necessary.  Except you could control a party.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Collider wrote...

They'll do away with the RPG genre just as they did the mech shooter genre. The past will tell the future!

In the future Mech Games WILL  be RPGs

[AtreiyaN7]

Solid N7 wrote...

But the only people that whine in the  forums  are the "hardcore" pc  gamers.

I have to say that that's sort of hilarious. I'm a "hardcore" PC gamer, one who has two handheld systems (or more if you want to count the various Gameboy iterations) in addition to my beloved new uber-gaming laptop. I have never, in my life, ever whined about consoles vs. PCs. Usually, I'll make a snarky remark in one of those kinds of threads blasting the stupidity of a platform war (in addition to actually adressing the original point of the thread  ).

When anyone (on either side) starts one of those insipid platform wars, it's annoying and detracts from what should be the focus of discussion: the game. Speaking of which, I believe that judging a game on its actual merits such as whether or not it's FUN, is considerably more important than trying to pigeonhole it or simply dismissing it because it doesn't fit into some neat little genre box...or because there's jumping. *sigh*

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 26 août 2010 - 11:38 .

[Rubbish Hero]

Eventually RPG all Heavy Rain.

Only gameplay brush teeth, Press X Jason.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Rubbish Hero wrote...

Eventually RPG all Heavy Rain.
Only gameplay brush teeth, Press X Jason.

Gotta love those QTE's

Thanks Dragon's Lair and Shenmue, and double thanks to Resident Evil 4 and God of War for bringing them back

[yummysoap]

Oh noes action.



I don't see the big deal, really. More "action" doesn't scare me

[SirOccam]

Wulfram wrote...

Sir Occam:  People who call KotOR an Action RPG certainly are wrong

I get that you think so. But merely stating it as a fact does not make it a fact. And I'm not even arguing that it isn't a fact!

It was just an example. You can't prove that KotOR isn't an action RPG. And there's nothing wrong with that. I'm just saying things like this mean different things to different people. You have given us your meaning, but that doesn't mean someone else can't have theirs.