Aller au contenu

Photo

Help! Infiltrator on Insanity!


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
70 réponses à ce sujet

#26
Tlazolteotl

Tlazolteotl
  • Members
  • 1 824 messages

JaegerBane wrote...
For instance, look at this video.


I seriously doubt you've used the shuriken much if you're going to reference those videos as evidence.

Over 2 seconds, the shuriken has higher DPS than the tempest.
You can test it yourself (or just look at cruc1al's other video's first 2 seconds of shuriken tap firing vs tempest).

The reason it kills the geth hunter slower is due to the reload frequency.

In actual gameplay, how many times do you need to reload to take down a geth hunter?
If your answer is once more with the shuriken (or locust) than the tempest, then the tempest does have more DPS.
If your answer is 0, as it should be if you're using all of you and your squad's capabilities, then the tempest loses in DPS.

What's more, if you take a closer look, cruc1al keeps up an even fire rate while tap firing.
The shuriken can fire the first shot of the second burst at the same time as the last shot of the first burst.
If you take my meaning.

Finally, the locust does not have more ammo than the shuriken.

#27
Merchant2006

Merchant2006
  • Members
  • 2 538 messages
Wow, thanks for the great tips heh.
So I suppose investing in Cryo Ammo is a good idea as would be Heavy Disruptor Ammo.
That would mean at the moment I'm going for:

Tactical Cloak - 10 - Assassination
Operative - 10 - Assassin
Disruptor Ammo - 10 - Heavy
Cryo Ammo - 10 - Squad


That leaves me with... what... 11 more points?

The main issue I'm facing is would you consider the ideal squad to take v. Collectors/Barrier enemies would be Jack or Miranda/Thane? I mean, Samara has Reave (but in my playthrough she will be replaced by Morinth, resulting in 'Dominate') but Mir/Thane can have Heavy Warp. However Thane is a sniper and I don't think I need another one seeing how I'm the one doing the headshots and damage ^^.

I just need something to cover that area. I'm now reconsidering the use of Warp Ammo but perhaps I should invest my final 10 points into Heavy Incinerate? I'm not looking for a 'CQC' Infiltrator... thats my soldier/sentinel/vanguard. Just pure long range.

Thanks for the continued help and support! :)

Modifié par Merchant2006, 28 août 2010 - 12:03 .


#28
Besetment

Besetment
  • Members
  • 347 messages
Operative, Tactical Cloak and Cryo are the only ones I would max on a consistent basis. The other powers you can freely mock up however you want depending on the mission/assignments.

So lets say the next mission has lots of mechs/geth. If its lots of Loki/Fenris mechs I'd probably take Area Reave as a bonus power and put at least 1 point in AI Hacking. If its a serious butt tonne of mechs I'd put  a few more points into hacking but you don't always need to max it and its one of few skills that sometimes works better if you don't max it. The point is to have a single minion that draws fire like a Combat Drone but dies when the fight is over or nearly over so you don't need to waste too much ammo killing it yourself.

Worst case scenario when you max it, evolve it to Area AI Hacking and you don't need to? You end up finishing a fight with 2 or 3 minions that have massive shields that just stand around waiting for the hacking duration to run out. You can speed things along by shooting them down yourself but they got so many shields it takes ages and wastes ammo. For missions/assignments with no mechs theres no point putting anything in AI Hacking.

Incinerate is something I use interchangeably with Reave and Energy Drain. When I start Insanity+ I like to have at least one point in Energy Drain and AI Hacking since that makes Freedom's Progress a total cinche. After that I'll want Mordin to get my upgrades and his recruitment mission has tonnes of armour (Vorcha/Krogan mainly) so you get more mileage by pumping Heavy Incinerate for Krogan armour. Vorcha die in pretty much one headshot no matter what.

For Collector missions and late game mixed organic/armour/barrier, I'll usually replace Incinerate entirely with Reave because its insane once you get all the bio amp upgrades and its function is too similar to Incinerate to have them both on the quickbar. Synthetic heavy missions like Haestrom? Oh god, Area Energy Drain all the way and a couple of points in AI Hacking. No need to max Incinerate or even really put any points in it.

My ideal Collector mission squad would be Samara/Miranda since then you can have double Reave and Area Pull/Warp Explosions. Samara's innate power confers a cooldown reduction bonus so you can spam area pull faster than Jacob which is always nice.

Close second would be Jack/Miranda but mostly I like having a second Reave because its just so insanely ridiculously powerful against armour/barrier/organics.

Just make sure you have all your quickslots mapped to easy access mouse buttons and keys. I don't use 5 to 8 keys because my little finger can't reach 5 let alone 6, 7 or 8 so these are generally mapped to mouse buttons and my f key is set to unity (just like first aid in ME1 :P ). That way you can combo powers real fast like Reave/Pull/Warp, EDrain/Hack or Reave/Hack.

Also, use your squadmate target fire keys. With squad cryo you can use squadmate target fire to select which enemies get turned into slush puppies. I like using powers to strip armour/shields quick on multiple enemies, set my squaddies to targetfire different enemies now down to health and then go kill something else. That way theres a whole 2 baddies not shooting you in the face and a 3rd about to kiss the dirt.

One last thing. Pure long range and CQC are kind of strange ways to think about Infiltrator play. I'm a sniper monkey going back to the the Counter-Strike betas when AWP killed with a toe shot but in ME2 you still need to use SMGs otherwise you will run out of ammo or you'll get into a bad flow where you waste Widow ammo on fights where its not necessary and run low when you do need it.

Modifié par Besetment, 28 août 2010 - 12:40 .


#29
JaegerBane

JaegerBane
  • Members
  • 5 441 messages

Tlazolteotl wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...
For instance, look at this video.


I seriously doubt you've used the shuriken much if you're going to reference those videos as evidence.

Over 2 seconds, the shuriken


It wasn't so much 'evidence' as much as pointing out that the actual advantage of the shuriken doesn't amount to all that much in actual gameplay. I'm sure you can come up with an argument as to why your own experience of using the Shuriken and supporting theorycrafting somehow trumps what is displayed on screen for all to see, but ultimately, that isn't really what I'm pointing out.

I've no doubt that in the practically limitless situations available in game not everything will work out precisely how it did in that video - all I'm saying is that no matter how many modifiers and anecdotal evidence you wish to tack on, the situation is simply that the shuriken will never pull that far ahead in terms of performance against shields. It just doesn't do enough damage per shot, with a lower level of accuracy, for extra 0.25 modifier to make that much difference. Sure, it's enough to take it ahead of the Locust - but just enough for it to be considered 'ahead'. The difference is marginal at best and like it or not, the Shuriken falls behind in practically every other situation.

Hell, in that situation you see on the video, things were actually in the shuriken's favour - the enemy was at very short range thus wasting many of the advantages of the Locust, he didn't aim for the head, thus again wasting the Locust's accuracy, and he was carrying it out without the shield breaker upgrade, thus disadvantaging the Locust's smaller clip due to the requirement for more shots. And yet, even with all this... it amounted to a tenth of a second difference. Consider what would have happened had the geth been at long range and he'd been going for headshots. Are you suggesting the performance of the shuriken would have been better?

I respect the fact that you thought through your argument, but in this situation, if you expect to be taken seriously in refuting an actual video, your best bet would be to post some videos of your own showing your argument in action. It never looks that convincing when you claim what's happening in a video 'isn't correct' with nothing more than text ;)

Finally, the locust does not have more ammo than the shuriken.


ok, I'll give you that one, I'd somehow got it into may head it was 264 extra shots without the ammo upgrade. ;)

Modifié par JaegerBane, 28 août 2010 - 12:50 .


#30
OniGanon

OniGanon
  • Members
  • 4 829 messages
Okay, I'm usually the guy who chimes in to give love to the underloved guns, but honestly the Shuriken (in the player's hands) has nothing on the Locust beyond having a more satisfying sound effect. Sorry, but that's really how it is. What kills the Shuriken is the stupid small clip, and thus all too frequent reloading. If it had a beefier clip of say 40-60, it'd actually be a really nice gun. Hell, if it had a clip of 85 or so, it'd be a Revenant.



Moreover, a sniper focused Infiltrator should defeinitely be using a Locust to supplement their Widow ammo. This shouldn't even be in question. The only use for the other SMGs is for CQC.



And yeah after the shield pierce upgrade, I too have found it's better to use Cryo on the SMG for mooks, and save Disruptor for enemies whose shield can survive more than one Locust clip (bosses, Legionnaires etc).



As for squadmates vs Collectors, I like having Thane and Miranda along for warp explosions and Thane is just so awesome sniping on the Collector Ship platforms. Concerning their Warp, you should have them set to Unstable Warp because it has a shorter cooldown.

#31
termokanden

termokanden
  • Members
  • 5 818 messages

OniGanon wrote...

Okay, I'm usually the guy who chimes in to give love to the underloved guns, but honestly the Shuriken (in the player's hands) has nothing on the Locust beyond having a more satisfying sound effect.


Honestly this is why I try to avoid SMGs. I don't think any of them have satisfying sound effects.

Best sound effects - Widow, Claymore, Mattock. BOOM!

#32
Tlazolteotl

Tlazolteotl
  • Members
  • 1 824 messages

JaegerBane wrote...
It never looks that convincing when you claim what's happening in a video 'isn't correct' with nothing more than text


And ... what exactly are you doing?

Allow me to rephrase that.
If some guy says, "Zangief is the best character in Street Fighter 4! See, he has a Hadouken, and a Shouryuken, and can call down nukes from the sky!"
Well ... if he can do all those things because his game is modded ... well, his opinion on street fighter 4 is automatically invalid.

#33
Kronner

Kronner
  • Members
  • 6 249 messages

OniGanon wrote...

Okay, I'm usually the guy who chimes in to give love to the underloved guns, but honestly the Shuriken (in the player's hands) has nothing on the Locust beyond having a more satisfying sound effect. Sorry, but that's really how it is. What kills the Shuriken is the stupid small clip, and thus all too frequent reloading. If it had a beefier clip of say 40-60, it'd actually be a really nice gun. Hell, if it had a clip of 85 or so, it'd be a Revenant.

Moreover, a sniper focused Infiltrator should defeinitely be using a Locust to supplement their Widow ammo. This shouldn't even be in question. The only use for the other SMGs is for CQC.

And yeah after the shield pierce upgrade, I too have found it's better to use Cryo on the SMG for mooks, and save Disruptor for enemies whose shield can survive more than one Locust clip (bosses, Legionnaires etc).

As for squadmates vs Collectors, I like having Thane and Miranda along for warp explosions and Thane is just so awesome sniping on the Collector Ship platforms. Concerning their Warp, you should have them set to Unstable Warp because it has a shorter cooldown.


Pretty much what I think too. Because Locust has basically no recoil, it allows you to fire full auto straight to the head of your enemy. It is also pretty good against armor considering it is SMG.

#34
Merchant2006

Merchant2006
  • Members
  • 2 538 messages
Ehhhhm... so what you're all discussing is that a good weapon to use alongside Heavy Disruptor Ammo would be the Shuriken? I usually prefer having "Specific" weapons that latch on with ammo. E.g. If I have a Widow/Regular SR, I like it to go with Incendiary Ammo, or if I have a shield shredder weapon then I would go for an SMG (usually Shuriken/Locust) with Disruptor Ammo etc... you see what I mean heh.

Besetment has made a lot of good points and I think I will take a page out of his book. I never really bothered to retrain my skills very often but it seems everyone else does it on a real regular basis. I'm glad to see Samara/Miranda were chosen for his squad, I love nothing more than Samara's fast Pull cooldown and locked in with Miranda's Heavy Warp just makes my day.

But keep this up, I'm jotting everything down as a mental note the next time I load ME2 ^^.

Modifié par Merchant2006, 28 août 2010 - 03:43 .


#35
sinosleep

sinosleep
  • Members
  • 3 038 messages
In my playthrough there was no need for incinerate. The widow positively destroys any armor any way and wasting a CD on a power your gun already provides instead of using it on cloak seems wasteful to me.

With regards to specific ammo per weapon like I said earlier, I went with whatever heavy X ammo (whatever the enemy is weak against) on the sniper rifle while sticking with cryo on my own. Worked well for me. As or squad selection I usually took Miranda for her passive (makes up for that final sniper upgrade you can't get till hella late) and then it was just whoever I felt like taking. Rarely made much of a difference.

Modifié par sinosleep, 28 août 2010 - 03:53 .


#36
JaegerBane

JaegerBane
  • Members
  • 5 441 messages

Tlazolteotl wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...
It never looks that convincing when you claim what's happening in a video 'isn't correct' with nothing more than text


And ... what exactly are you doing?


*scratches head*

Uh, I'm pointing at a video to illustrate my point. Was that not clear?

Allow me to rephrase that.
If some guy says, "Zangief is the best character in Street Fighter 4! See, he has a Hadouken, and a Shouryuken, and can call down nukes from the sky!"
Well ... if he can do all those things because his game is modded ... well, his opinion on street fighter 4 is automatically invalid.


I have no idea what this means. How is this relevant to my request for you to post a video? What does modding have to do with it?

Modifié par JaegerBane, 28 août 2010 - 06:44 .


#37
Besetment

Besetment
  • Members
  • 347 messages
I still don't rate bonus ammo powers all that much because the way its calculated, the damage boost is not big at all. Play both these videos at the same (mute sound on one depending on whether you like Vibrasphere or Tool more. I like both but these days I go with Tool).

www.youtube.com/watch (Me)
www.youtube.com/watch (AverageGatsby)

He starts about 12 seconds in and we clear the first 2 areas in roughly 4:50.

Me with AP ammo:
Vorcha = 1 headshot
Krogan = 3 headshots

Gatsby with Cryo ammo:
Vorcha = 1 headshot
Krogan = 4 headshots

We were pretty much even to the exact second for the first two and a half minutes. Then he drops behind badly because he decides to whack those blue suns. When the first Krogan appears, Gatsby rockets ahead and is faster to the finish through the first area without any danger of dying. With Cryo he goes for 2x widow shots and moves into melee range to get his point blank multiplier with SMG. He uses the same number of Widow shots as me, kills faster, is safer and he didn't even really use quick keys.

I'm gonna do another time trial through Omega and see how much quicker it can be done with full and smart hotkey usage, Squad Cryo, rank 2 Dominate and using Miranda Overload on Pyros instead of shooting them. I think Infiltrators are like Vanguards in the sense that they have their perfect ammo power built into the class and to go around that works out not only worse for you but it costs you a bonus power which is better spent on something like Reave, Energy Drain, Dominate - anything thats going to make a real difference by opening up new strategies.

edit: Tlazolteotl and JaegerBane. My god you two just get a room already.

Modifié par Besetment, 28 août 2010 - 06:46 .


#38
JaegerBane

JaegerBane
  • Members
  • 5 441 messages

Besetment wrote...
edit: Tlazolteotl and JaegerBane. My god you two just get a room already.


Aw, too much text for you?

If you've got something to add, do it, but don't sit on a pedestal and decree what is and isn't fit for discussion in the thread.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 28 août 2010 - 06:57 .


#39
sinosleep

sinosleep
  • Members
  • 3 038 messages

Besetment wrote...

I think Infiltrators are like Vanguards in the sense that they have their perfect ammo power built into the class and to go around that works out not only worse for you but it costs you a bonus power which is better spent on something like Reave, Energy Drain, Dominate - anything thats going to make a real difference by opening up new strategies.


I'd rather save one shot on Krogan than waste a 6 second cool down on something like reave or energy drain, but that's just the way I play what I consider to be gun classes. On my vanguard I tend to use either powers on very quick cool down (pull) in between charges or nothing at all. Even if it only makes a small difference I'd rather have an ammo power that's quick on cool down than something that's going to stop me from charging/cloaking/adrenaline rushing.

#40
casedawgz

casedawgz
  • Members
  • 2 864 messages
Infilitrator Insanity Keys to Success:

Step One: Assassination Cloak

Step Two: Widow Sniper Rifle

Step Three: ???

Step Four: Profit

#41
Besetment

Besetment
  • Members
  • 347 messages
The thing about Cloak +damage is that often it doesn't make any real difference to your kill speed either. As long as you get 1 cloaked shot in, Krogan are still gonna take 3 shots to kill. So the idea that you need to spend all your power recharges on Cloaks and land cloaked headshots whenever cloak becomes available again is also something of a myth.



E Drain is crazy on an Infiltrator. I just blitzed through Freedom's Progress again on Insanity+ and I'm surprised it even makes a difference considering how quickly shields drop but oh boy does it. You can do things that would otherwise get you killed in 3 seconds flat, like charging headfirst into melee range against geth mobs, and just before you die you hit e drain and gain about +400 shields with 1 point investment, completely strip shields on one target which you AI hack and then nothing shoots at you anymore so you can SMG at point blank for stupid damage.



Reave is just mental on collector missions too. I mean you can use Warp Ammo if you want but I found all of the collector missions where much easier and faster by reaving off barriers and mass freezing with Squad Cryo. Not only does it reduce the number of Harbinger spawns but with at least 2 sniper rifle upgrade you can kill Collectors in 1 widow headshot anyway, regardless of what ammo power you have and regardless of whether you are cloaked or not.

#42
sinosleep

sinosleep
  • Members
  • 3 038 messages
I REFUSE to use reave. Doesn't matter the class, doesn't matter the situation, to hell with reave.

Modifié par sinosleep, 28 août 2010 - 07:37 .


#43
AdamNW

AdamNW
  • Members
  • 731 messages
Why do people think Cryo is so useless? It's a godsend.

#44
Besetment

Besetment
  • Members
  • 347 messages

Merchant2006 wrote...]But keep this up, I'm jotting everything down as a mental note the next time I load ME2 ^^.


Just try out various skill combos yourself - as they say, a thousand textbooks isn't worth one real trip. The problem with theorycrafting is that way back in January/February, everyone said Cryo ammo was useless on Insanity+ and on paper it doesn't look much cop when everything is running around with shields or amour and sometimes both. The same was said of Energy Drain and now people are starting to come round to the fact that it is verge of broken because its just that good. I think the first person to really give Cryo ammo a chance and post videos for people to see it in action was Thisisme8.

After watching his videos I respecced my Infiltrator and had a go at playing his style. I was rubbish with Tempest when I first started out but got used to the recoil and range thresholds pretty quick. So I played it for a bit and then incorporated bits of his close quarter playstyle into my own style which was really heavily Widow oriented at the time (as you can see from the videos I posted). If you were to ask me now, I'd say that back then I was way too reliant on Widow and would simply quickload when I ran out of ammo. So now its a mix of close quarter work and sniping. To get a feel for what works best for you personally, you just have to play it yourself. If you want to really powergame you'll probably want to do timed runs and test out various builds which I like doing. Character building is sort of like a game within the game that I find fun in itself.

So the moral of the story is pretty much this: the game lets you respec pretty much as often as you want, so try out all the crazy combinations you can and see what works best. Sinos style is different from mine which is different from Thisisme8. So develop your own style that works for you and have fun.

Peace out.

Modifié par Besetment, 28 août 2010 - 08:29 .


#45
OniGanon

OniGanon
  • Members
  • 4 829 messages
I know you said you don't want to go CQC route but honestly, it's such a waste of Cloak's potential to never use it aggressively. Mixing sniping with CQC, sniping key targets and softening the opposition up from afar before moving in and taking the enemy's ground by force; that's how to make the most of Cloak and it's a very gratifying and effective way to play. Forgoing the shotgun doesn't mean you can't play aggressively!

(not my vid)

#46
EKozski

EKozski
  • Members
  • 162 messages
I love his video's. Sentinel was the best one. Great music!

I always thought Warp Ammo was a non-specific class "power" for the Inflitrator, because of the warp. I almost took Armour Piercing Ammo. Ammo is ammo I guess. I'm a big fan of Cryo also.



I swear by the Locust. Every class carries it, other than, the soldier. It's the only weapon I use. With my Inflitrator, I do use the Sniper Rifle. Rarely. I do Kasumi first just to get the SMG. I also like the one you get from Mordin.

#47
Besetment

Besetment
  • Members
  • 347 messages
Unfortunately I lost all my savegames for some reason and I need to start over (no NG+) so my vids are gonna be Insanity only for a while.

Just done Freedom's Progress again and heres the vid:

www.youtube.com/watch

My PC has seen better days and its quite old so sorry about the crappy framerate in parts. It should give you some idea of what 1 point AI Hacking and Energy Drain can do for you in the opening mission. Next up is Mordin's Recruitment and hopefully I'll have my new laptop by then.

Modifié par Besetment, 29 août 2010 - 02:09 .


#48
Merchant2006

Merchant2006
  • Members
  • 2 538 messages

OniGanon wrote...

I know you said you don't want to go CQC route but honestly, it's such a waste of Cloak's potential to never use it aggressively. Mixing sniping with CQC, sniping key targets and softening the opposition up from afar before moving in and taking the enemy's ground by force; that's how to make the most of Cloak and it's a very gratifying and effective way to play. Forgoing the shotgun doesn't mean you can't play aggressively!
(not my vid)


Wowzerz.... that.... that does indeed look very fun :blink:

#49
JaegerBane

JaegerBane
  • Members
  • 5 441 messages

sinosleep wrote...

I REFUSE to use reave. Doesn't matter the class, doesn't matter the situation, to hell with reave.


Meh. It's overpowered, sure - at least for a class that doesn't have Warp (If it does then all you're doing is doubling up your anti-armour/barrier powers and CC - nice to have but a lot of redundancy).

But to be fair, there's a lot of very cool and overpowered stuff in the game. Nothing wrong with that in a single player game.

#50
Besetment

Besetment
  • Members
  • 347 messages
If you start refusing to use certain things in the game on principle then discussions like this cease to have any use or merit because you could just as easily say:



Scimitar is overpowered.

Energy Drain is overpowered.

AI Hacking? Literally.

Widow is too good. Real men use Mantis.

Warp Explosions are unmanly. My daddy doesn't detonate his Area Pulls and he has a GOATEE.



Theres a difference between discussing mechanics and roleplay. Of course nobody is going to tell you how you should roleplay your character. You can play it any way you want and set as many self restrictions as you want so that the game is fun and challenging for you personally.



But I thought this thread was about mechanics - what works, why and when. How it works, how effective it is, whether you should pick skills based on its efficacy and not whether it is arbitrarily perceived as being unfair (as if this even matters in a single player game as JaegerBane said).