925 réponses à ce sujet

[dan107]

Mike2640 wrote...

You ****ers already have Gears of War and God of War and Call of Duty and a thousand other immitators to fill your action fix, why the hell do RPGs need to **** themselves out into that category? It boggles my mind. I've never seen anyone go to a Halo board and tell them they should add skills and dialogue options. What you want isn't "change", it's homoginization. Give it ten years every major release will be some variant of greyish-brown cover shooter.

It's bull****.

I think that what most people who are asking for more action envision a game with the deep story and characters of a typical Bio game and the action gameplay of Halo or Half Life. Halo and Half Life are so far removed from that perfect game due to a lack of required story elements that it's pointless to agitate Bungie or Half Life. Bio games on the other hand are close and getting closer (ME2 almost nailed it), so it makes a lot more sense to argue for that kind of game here.

[Wyndham711]

Arrtis wrote...

I rather they slow the game down with cut scenes rather than a lot of inventory management.

That is not a cost effective or at all realistic way of doing it. Setting up things like a reasonably complex menu system with depth, a thorough loot/inventory system which forces you to do some of these more "uninspiring" activities, a battlelog, dispersed questgiver locations etc, you hugely lengthen the average gameplay time and at the same time effectively give the gameplay room to breath properly.

It's ridiculous to even think they could ever add in a similar amount of gameplay/minute value using cutscenes (which involve things like camerawork, specific animations, VO, writing, scripting etc. - all of which need to be done separately for each and every cutscene). Not to mention the fact that following cutscenes is on average much more attention demanding than scrolling through menus etc, so it is not really even a very effective way of creating that needed feeling of respiration for the gameplay.

[KalDurenik]

For me im worried now that they will ME2 dragon age 2... wait they allready said they kinda would...



*cinematic experience .... if i wished for this i would watch *GASP* a movie O.o

*Chat wheel... Urk it should go back to the depths of hell where it came from

*More "action" / consoleish combat and so on... -.-

*Less choices on how and what you want to play

*A preselected name for your character...



Im not very hyped up about Dragon Age 2 sadly =/ same with Mass Effect 3 and the same with Mass Effect 2 (found that it have lore plot holes the size of a galaxy, less items, less choices on items / skills, Oh well =/

[jazzy B 3]

ITT: Lets make all games the same formula so that there's no difference and we can please everyone to the same degree.

[Torhagen]

RageGT wrote...

TurtleTape wrote...

Rive Caedo wrote...

TurtleTape wrote...

No, I didn't read the whole thread. I read the first and last few pages. But I want to say:

I love loot, I love big bulky inventories, I love getting the fifteenth darkspawn dagger that isn't worth anything. I am the person that kills some poor little scout in a pen and paper dnd match and immediately asks the dm if there's any loot, and I am the person that spends ten minutes looking through spells to figure out which one to choose, that's in either a pnp or a video game.

See! I said that guy was around here somewhere in one of my earlier posts! 

I'm with you on (over)analyzing spell/talent/gear options, but not with you on loving junk loot. If I see a little loot sparkle I like to know that it's something useful (Potions, crafting components, magical equipment). Not something that's only going to cause:
"Oooo a loot sparkle. Oh... it's... another leather helm. Well... I guess I can sell that for 5 copper later... if I don't run out of inventory space.... due to more leather helms."

I like any and all goodies, lol.  Some people are obsessive over side quests, I'm obsessive over loot.  I WILL stand over a non sparkly dead guy for an extra few seconds just to be absolutely sure I'm not missing something.  The deep roads drives me insane with the running darkspawn -.-
Also, girl

I'm obsessive over loot and side quests, over alchemy ingredients and weapons forging, Some elements we don't have in DA:O but still, they are fun in the games where we have them.

And I found it really cool that some sidequests would be triggered by actions somewhere far away or how I could only enter a house for the completion of a side quest if I gathered all information spread in a few different places. And how a codex entry like Cautionary Tales for the Adventurous would later translate into a real nightmare but fun sidequest, particularly for those who don't let their chars die at all in the game. Dragon Age is a masterpiece of creative writting, imho. Sidequests included. Those "gather and deliver" didn't bother me either but hey, they are OPTIONAL.

I think DA:O had in it to be the spiritual successor of Baldur's Gate indeed. The very first quest of Human Noble origins is a tribute/homage to the very first quest of BG. After all, some great epic stories begin with the killing of a lousy rat!

I love it to check the loot after a battle and see what profit it will bring and if some awesome magical item dropped also love it when you have a group of enemies and you pause to give Commands to your Group who shall they attack and what attack/spell is appropriate right now.

[Mike2640]

dan107 wrote...

Mike2640 wrote...

You ****ers already have Gears of War and God of War and Call of Duty and a thousand other immitators to fill your action fix, why the hell do RPGs need to **** themselves out into that category? It boggles my mind. I've never seen anyone go to a Halo board and tell them they should add skills and dialogue options. What you want isn't "change", it's homoginization. Give it ten years every major release will be some variant of greyish-brown cover shooter.

It's bull****.

I think that what most people who are asking for more action envision a game with the deep story and characters of a typical Bio game and the action gameplay of Halo or Half Life. Halo and Half Life are so far removed from that perfect game due to a lack of required story elements that it's pointless to agitate Bungie or Half Life. Bio games on the other hand are close and getting closer (ME2 almost nailed it), so it makes a lot more sense to argue for that kind of game here.

Then the problem lies with mainstream shooters going minimalist when it comes to story (Although I wouldn't really say Bungie does this if you look at the ad campeign for their recent games). Why shouldn't they go to the other game makers?
It's like saying, "Bioware you do story really well, but I dont like anything else about your stuff, can you be like everything else out there that is popular? Dont worry about your old fans there's three times as many of us."

What's worse though is Bioware is going along with it too, like the kid who laughs at his friends playing DnD to get in with the popular crowd.

[gotthammer]

Mike2640 wrote...

What's worse though is Bioware is going along with it too, like the kid who laughs at his friends playing DnD to get in with the popular crowd.

I'm all for 'old school', 'against consolization' (optimization: yes; 'dumbing things down' or 'over-simplification': no) and whatnot, but methinks that y'all still have to remember/consider that Bioware's still a business (perhaps more so now that it's under EA, I guess *shrugs*), so if going a certain direction can help w/ more sales, then MAYBE they'll go that way.

I wouldn't know if they've really 'compromised their ideals' or whatever, I'm not part of the creative staff nor their management. Maybe it really is a creative decision. Maybe they thought all these changes would be for the best (while I didn't like a good number of elements in ME2, for example, I liked how it ran much more smoother than ME1 does on the same system lol). I don't know (and, I'm betting, most of the forum-posters can only speculate, as well). 

I just hope that DA2 will be good. Other than giving constructive criticism, hoping for the best is probably the only thing we can do anyway. 

Modifié par gotthammer, 28 août 2010 - 03:16 .

[MortalEngines]

I skipped through the thread so please bear with me for anything I missed and didn't address.



Firstly, OP, do you understand what a RPG is? ROLE.PLAYING.GAME. It's not an interactive movie made up of solely cut scenes and decision making, if that's what you want then go play some Heavy Rain (I love this game btw, but I don't consider it an RPG at all).



I enjoy the story and characters of DA of course, but I equally love the combat system, the whole point of a game is that there is some action interaction involved, other wise it's just an interactive film, removing things like inventory management/party management/tactics/skill trees etc. Just ruins the whole point of the game and makes it about as challenging as Wii Fit (which is kinda hard in some parts ).



If you think we're just a bunch of oldies that can't let go of the old school system you're solely mistaken. Play some of the old RPs and you'll see how much different DA:O is from them, not just combat wise but the whole game mechanic. RPGs have reformed and changed, why they must become interactive films is beyond me.



And this whole 'Massify' thing is ridiculous, if I want a Mass Effect game I buy Mass Effect, it I want Dragon Age I buy Dragon Age. I assure you that RPGs have advanced much since the days of old school D&D but that doesn't mean the must become a FPS/Mass Effect, Interactive film hybrid.

[Artemis_Entrari]

I wish someone would just link the OP to the Halo: Reach forums or something.



Biggest pet peeve on RPG forums: When someone comes on and basically suggests they turn the RPG into some kind of Halo game.

[MortalEngines]

Haha, my point exactly Artemis, this guy wants some sort of Halo-Heavy Rain hybrid, cool story, easy as pants combat, no challenge.

[NvVanity]

Well Heavy Rain was a very unique way of gameplay but it's not DA's cup of tea. Plus that would just have "Press X to HAWKE".

[MortalEngines]

Heavy rain is an interactive movie. That's it basically, it's all story and decision which is what the OP said they wanted in the opening post, which is why I said they should get Heavy Rain if they wanted something like that.

Modifié par MortalEngines, 28 août 2010 - 04:15 .

[Berkilak]

Items are a must. Limited inventory is a thing of the past, however (you know, when the memory of a game actually was limited in this respect). There are so many ways to rid the game of standard RPG annoyances without getting rid of RPG features.

[NvVanity]

MortalEngines wrote...

Heavy rain is an interactive movie. That's it basically, it's all story and decision which is what the OP said they wanted in the opening post, which is why I said they should get Heavy Rain if they wanted something like that.

Unfortunately people get this idea that if a game does something cool/innovative they believe every game should copy it and then it doesnt really be that innovative anymore when every game is doing it. Which is why we have this topic and the many "Make Dragon Age 2 more like Baldurs Gate NOW" topics.

[Surango]

If they talent system is even more simplified in ME than it is in DA, I say no. But I've never been a big fan of space age games/movies so I don't know anything about ME beyond seeing screen shots.

The audience for RPGs is a lot different from action games. Most people who prefer RPGs are thinkers, strategists, analysts, and some can be pretty anal about it. If you take out too many elements that the "old school" enjoys you won't keep them as customers.

[Berkilak]

You assume the audiences are mutually exclusive. And also that an action game cannot require thought, strategems or analysis. I would heavily recommend Mass Effect 2 to you. And play on Insanity.



I think the real issue at hand here is people who like to prepare for a situation beforehand (ie. most JRPGs that require you to be at X powerlevel and perhaps prepared for X nuance to the fight [I need fire resist for that dragon]) versus those who prefer to adapt to a situation as it develops (ie. whoa! that dragon's breath just one-shotted my tank! I better think of a way to avoid that before we all die!).



Neither situation is exclusive to action games or RPGs or hybrids. Nor do either take any less mental acuity than the other.

[wickedwizzard01]

Surango wrote...

If they talent system is even more simplified in ME than it is in DA, I say no. But I've never been a big fan of space age games/movies so I don't know anything about ME beyond seeing screen shots.
The audience for RPGs is a lot different from action games. Most people who prefer RPGs are thinkers, strategists, analysts, and some can be pretty anal about it. If you take out too many elements that the "old school" enjoys you won't keep them as customers.

eeuh...WOT????  there is a talent system in ME2???   Why wasn't i told about this:whistle:

Modifié par wickedwizzard01, 28 août 2010 - 04:35 .

[Reaverwind]

Suicider_11 wrote...

Vicious wrote...

After reading this thread, I see

A few people who like Bioware's current direction and want their future games to be the same.

A few people who dislike Bioware's current direction and want their future games to be more like their older, first-gen games.


and a WHOLE LOT OF pompous holier than thou RPG 'purists' who compare Bioware's recent offerings to blockbuster games, like it's a BAD thing, completely ignoring anything that contradicts their nerd raging, and berating anyone who disagrees with them.

Because being an old school RPG fan somehow makes them more 'special' than a kid who plays Gears of War.

Pathetic.

These forums have clearly gone to the Americans.

spot on dude

Indeed.

[MortalEngines]

NvVanity wrote...

MortalEngines wrote...

Heavy rain is an interactive movie. That's it basically, it's all story and decision which is what the OP said they wanted in the opening post, which is why I said they should get Heavy Rain if they wanted something like that.

Unfortunately people get this idea that if a game does something cool/innovative they believe every game should copy it and then it doesnt really be that innovative anymore when every game is doing it. Which is why we have this topic and the many "Make Dragon Age 2 more like Baldurs Gate NOW" topics.

Nice to see a fellow Hawke fan .

Onto the point, I agree fully with you. Heavy Rain was innovative and creative but it should stick to Quantic Dreams and not other developer (or at least a simpler sort of story). You can't use that sort of mechanic in a RPG setting, I mean if they do I will...just die. 

RPG is ALL about the skills and tactics are much as it is the story and characters. It's not old-school to follow D&D like combat, it's what makes RPGs, RPGS (or at least WRPGs). It's silly to want to make something like Dragon Age into the FPS-RPG hybrid known as Mass Effect (which while I enjoy, will never be an RPG for me).

I'm not an RPG 'purist' nor do I think I'm special for playing RPGS. Actually I play every sort of Game Genre, from Fallout 3 to Resident Evil. The only games I don't like are those based on films (they tend to suck), other than that, I like all sorts of games. 

I don't think I'm superior in intelligence for playing DA (actually I find Resident Evil: Remake about 100x harder than any RPG)

But I don't like a game attempting to hybrid and become something it's not. (Like Resident Evil becoming a Action Horror)

Modifié par MortalEngines, 28 août 2010 - 04:39 .

[Mike2640]

Berkilak wrote...

You assume the audiences are mutually exclusive. And also that an action game cannot require thought, strategems or analysis. I would heavily recommend Mass Effect 2 to you. And play on Insanity.

I think the real issue at hand here is people who like to prepare for a situation beforehand (ie. most JRPGs that require you to be at X powerlevel and perhaps prepared for X nuance to the fight [I need fire resist for that dragon]) versus those who prefer to adapt to a situation as it develops (ie. whoa! that dragon's breath just one-shotted my tank! I better think of a way to avoid that before we all die!).

Neither situation is exclusive to action games or RPGs or hybrids. Nor do either take any less mental acuity than the other.

The thing is that they are completely different strategies. Obviously games like X-Com or Fire Emblem is going to need a completely different thought process than an Insanity run.
I like shooters, GTA IV is in my top 3 of all time, but they're everywhere. You cant throw a stone these days without hitting an over the shoulder cover shooter. What made Dragon Age, and to a much lesser extend Mass Effect 1, stand out for me at least is that they weren't trying to ape anyone elses style. Now I see ME2 and I cant help but see Bioware trying to emulate Gears of War to cater to that audience. If Bioware is supposed to be leading the pack of RPG developers, why are they copying anyone at all?

Edit: And I mean recent developments, I know pretty much every game can be summed up as "Like X, but with Y".

Modifié par Mike2640, 28 août 2010 - 04:43 .

[Artemis_Entrari]

Vicious wrote...

After reading this thread, I see

A few people who like Bioware's current direction and want their future games to be the same.

A few people who dislike Bioware's current direction and want their future games to be more like their older, first-gen games.


and a WHOLE LOT OF pompous holier than thou RPG 'purists' who compare Bioware's recent offerings to blockbuster games, like it's a BAD thing, completely ignoring anything that contradicts their nerd raging, and berating anyone who disagrees with them.

Because being an old school RPG fan somehow makes them more 'special' than a kid who plays Gears of War.

Pathetic.

These forums have clearly gone to the Americans.

I think of it more like this:

I like Mass Effect.  I like Dragon Age.  I like Red Dead Redemption.  I like Call of Duty.  I like Halo.

What I do NOT like is when someone suggests Dragon Age should play more like Halo or Call of Duty.

It's kind of like if I decided to go play tennis with a buddy.  But when we get to the tennis courts, he sees a basketball net and says, "hey, instead of playing tennis, let's play basketball", even though I had my heart set on tennis.  Now, I like basketball. Love it, even.  But not when I'm in the mood to play tennis.

This is no different.

If I wanted a more action-game fix, I'd play Halo.  I own that game, anyway.  And I'm pretty sure that action fix will never go unfulfilled since I'm pretty sure Bungie will continue to make games.  But if I want an RPG fix, that WILL go unfulfilled if BioWare starts listening to people who suggest that franchises like Dragon Age should cut out a lot of what made them RPG staples, and streamline them into more of a Halo/Gears of War direction.

Modifié par Artemis_Entrari, 28 août 2010 - 05:00 .

[Sergius64]

Reaverwind wrote...

Suicider_11 wrote...

Vicious wrote...

After reading this thread, I see

A few people who like Bioware's current direction and want their future games to be the same.

A few people who dislike Bioware's current direction and want their future games to be more like their older, first-gen games.


and a WHOLE LOT OF pompous holier than thou RPG 'purists' who compare Bioware's recent offerings to blockbuster games, like it's a BAD thing, completely ignoring anything that contradicts their nerd raging, and berating anyone who disagrees with them.

Because being an old school RPG fan somehow makes them more 'special' than a kid who plays Gears of War.

Pathetic.

These forums have clearly gone to the Americans.

spot on dude

Indeed.

 Just as there are plenty of people who hate Harry Potter for being too simple compared to say... The Malazan Book of the Fallen. Just as there are plenty of people who hate dumb action movies for being to simple when compared to intelligent movies such as say... Inception.

 Its not our love for old school RPGs that makes us 'special', its our love for complex things that actually require us to think.

[Vandrayke]

Sergius64 wrote...

 Just as there are plenty of people who hate Harry Potter for being too simple compared to say... The Malazan Book of the Fallen. 

While I like Erikson and don't like the Potter books, it's not the "simplicity vs complexity" thing that makes me like one and not the other.  I don't mind tales with fewer characters and fewer locations.  I just don't like the general theme and characters of the Potter books.  

[Vandrayke]

Also nothing makes you "special." You just have different preferences.

[MortalEngines]

Sergius64 wrote...
 Just as there are plenty of people who hate Harry Potter for being too simple compared to say... The Malazan Book of the Fallen. Just as there are plenty of people who hate dumb action movies for being to simple when compared to intelligent movies such as say... Inception.

 Its not our love for old school RPGs that makes us 'special', its our love for complex things that actually require us to think.

That's not it though, the fact is that RPGs aren't that intelligent, to be truthful in most rpgs you don't have to use your brain much (unless you purposefully limit yourself for challenge sake). I find games like the Old School Resident Evil games (ala Resident evil code veronica and Resident evil Remake) much more harder (intelligence-wise) because of the extremely hard puzzles and confusing maps (as well as the ammo-limits).