925 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

MickyBlimpo wrote...

They're making fun of you guys again over at the rpgcodex:  ../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png

www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php

I.. I don't even know how the hell I was able to read that, I facepalm a lot on these boards but over there? My face is scarred with an imprint of my face.

[Addai]

shootist70 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Plot tension is not the only consideration.  There is also character development, a reward in its own right.  The trend in modern media towards always having a "kerplowie" moment around the next corner is not good storytelling, and it burns out on itself.  The Hollywoodization of RPGs might be a good thing in your book, but I can't call it that.

I havn't mentioned characterisation in particular because that, in fact, is part of any overall narrative and so is automatically inclusive within my argument. So my points still stand.

It can be more or less a part, however, which is my point.  For that matter, side plots can be as interesting as or more interesting than the main narrative.  If you don't stop to smell the roses...

[Addai]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

shootist70 wrote...

I havn't mentioned characterisation in particular because that, in fact, is part of any overall narrative and so is automatically inclusive within my argument. So my points still stand.

Here you're actually deviating from BioWare's position, and in a good way, I think.

However, the emergent narrative of character development occurs at a rate unknown to the designers, so those rat mazes you describe serve an essential role of giving the player's character time to develop.

That's right, which is why side quests are optional.  I choose which ones I feel make sense for my character and might add to my story.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Dave of Canada wrote...

MickyBlimpo wrote...

They're making fun of you guys again over at the rpgcodex:  ../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png

www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php

I.. I don't even know how the hell I was able to read that, I facepalm a lot on these boards but over there? My face is scarred with an imprint of my face.

Didn't posting links to RPGCodex used to be a bannable offense on the old BioBoards?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Its odd how so many people apparently enjoy the inventory management and filler quests the most in their RPGs... Its kinda sad the amount of conservatism they feel towards those pointless parts of the games. Inventory is completely irrelevant to the game and filler quests are boring, wake up and face the thruth..

[nhsk]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Its odd how so many people apparently enjoy the inventory management and filler quests the most in their RPGs... Its kinda sad the amount of conservatism they feel towards those pointless parts of the games. Inventory is completely irrelevant to the game and filler quests are boring, wake up and face the thruth..

So it's better to fly around a galaxy doing meaningless personal favors for your companions despite the entire galaxy is at stake?
I concur, to many filler quests are boring though, but I wouldn't be entirely without them.
Inventory, I like it - I like having choices what I wear and what my companions wear as opposed to wearing a breather mask in a space environment like Jack.

[Aradace]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Its odd how so many people apparently enjoy the inventory management and filler quests the most in their RPGs... Its kinda sad the amount of conservatism they feel towards those pointless parts of the games. Inventory is completely irrelevant to the game and filler quests are boring, wake up and face the thruth..

Let me guess, and you think Halo is an RPG as well right? lol....Side Quests/Missions are a good part of what makes an RPG an RPG....PART...Not whole mind you.  Even Mass Effect has side missions apart from the main story.  They are also most of the time what makes the difference between a game being 10 hours long and 50+ hours long.  So ANYONE...and yes, I mean ANYONE who thinks that side quests and missions are "pointless" needs to go and fire up Halo or some other game that's only going to take them 10-12 hours to complete. 

[shootist70]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

shootist70 wrote...

I havn't mentioned characterisation in particular because that, in fact, is part of any overall narrative and so is automatically inclusive within my argument. So my points still stand.

Here you're actually deviating from BioWare's position, and in a good way, I think.

However, the emergent narrative of character development occurs at a rate unknown to the designers, so those rat mazes you describe serve an essential role of giving the player's character time to develop.

The sort of character development you're referring to is a classic hallmark of badly composed drama, as it's shown by totally expositionary methods. classic RPG character development screens are exposition devices, and poor writers often use exposition devices to carry their plot through a lack of momentum, or when they just can't tie in their characterisation seamlessly within a narrative. There's no excuse for it. Everything should be within the narrative. The genre has gotten away with being lazy with this for too long, either through tech limitations or lack of talent, but there's no reason why that should become a genre characteristic simply because of fans clinging doggedly to what they're used to.

Relying on intrinsic rewards and exposition instead of compelling, seamless narrative is an incredibly ******-poor and mediocre treatment of the genre when you consider the real capabilites it has as a strong vehicle for dramatic content. It can offer things that other mediums can't, such as real player choice and combat action. The only thing it lacks at the moment is probably the most important factor - professional development within the lines of accepted fictive convention.

[sw33t nothings]

While I don't think you're the only one, OP, I have to respectfully disagree.



I loved DA:O, and I really enjoyed Mass Effect as well, but I'd like DA2 to seem more like it's successor. If I wanted to play a game like ME, I'd just play ME. I like variety, and while there are some things I prefer in DA:O, there are also things I prefer in ME/ME2. Now it might seem good in theory to take the best of both worlds, sometimes you end up in a beautiful disaster that just don't work.

[SirOccam]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

MickyBlimpo wrote...

They're making fun of you guys again over at the rpgcodex:  ../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png

www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php

I.. I don't even know how the hell I was able to read that, I facepalm a lot on these boards but over there? My face is scarred with an imprint of my face.

Didn't posting links to RPGCodex used to be a bannable offense on the old BioBoards?

I can certainly see why it would/should be. That was about as intellectually stimulating as reading YouTube comments.

[HarryThePlotter]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

MickyBlimpo wrote...

They're making fun of you guys again over at the rpgcodex:  ../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png

www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php

I.. I don't even know how the hell I was able to read that, I facepalm a lot on these boards but over there? My face is scarred with an imprint of my face.

Didn't posting links to RPGCodex used to be a bannable offense on the old BioBoards?

Old guys died. Children didn't know.

[zahra]

SirOccam wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

MickyBlimpo wrote...

They're making fun of you guys again over at the rpgcodex:  ../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png

www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php

I.. I don't even know how the hell I was able to read that, I facepalm a lot on these boards but over there? My face is scarred with an imprint of my face.

Didn't posting links to RPGCodex used to be a bannable offense on the old BioBoards?

I can certainly see why it would/should be. That was about as intellectually stimulating as reading YouTube comments.

(Majority of) Youtube comments make good case-examples for legalizing forced euthanasia. 

[Sergius64]

Majority of RPG Codex posts have a healthy dose of sarcasm and cynicism. You can't take them literally.

[Bryy_Miller]

Dave of Canada wrote...

MickyBlimpo wrote...

They're making fun of you guys again over at the rpgcodex:  ../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png

www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php

I.. I don't even know how the hell I was able to read that, I facepalm a lot on these boards but over there? My face is scarred with an imprint of my face.

Wow. That thread is pure irony. 

[Bobad]

MickyBlimpo wrote...

They're making fun of you guys again over at the rpgcodex:  ../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png

www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php

People sometimes make fun of you when you're not looking?, why didn't anyone tell me

[Kiely]

There are plenty of action/adventure/RPG-light games out there... PLENTY.



Forgive us "old-school-Baldur's-Gate-Fanboys" for wanting something different and when we get it wanting to keep it that way.



I'm not saying the OP is wrong, he is simply stating his preference and is entitled to his opinion. But I see dozens of games offering what he is asking for while precious few are sticking with the more traditional play style of games like Baldur's Gate and now DA.

[druplesnubb]

After looking at the title and the length of this thread this is probably the only thread I've actually been scared of posting in due to fear of gigantic flame wars. After looking it wasn't quite as bad as I thought it would be though, with most people just discussing a site called rpgcodex. Still don't want to check the earlier pages though.

[btthegeek]

Dave of Canada wrote...

MickyBlimpo wrote...

They're making fun of you guys again over at the rpgcodex:  ../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png

www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php

I.. I don't even know how the hell I was able to read that, I facepalm a lot on these boards but over there? My face is scarred with an imprint of my face.

Agreed.  While I can agree and disagree with the OP, apparently I know nothing about "real" RPGs one way or another.  So glad someone was able to enlighten me. 

[shootist70]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

MickyBlimpo wrote...

They're making fun of you guys again over at the rpgcodex:  ../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png

www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php

I.. I don't even know how the hell I was able to read that, I facepalm a lot on these boards but over there? My face is scarred with an imprint of my face.

Wow. That thread is pure irony. 

It certainly is. They rant on about dumbing down, dumb shooter fans etc, yet judging by their posts they'd probably struggle to muster a double figure IQ between them.

[Lusitanum]

MortalEngines wrote...

Umm, well firstly, GOW was focused on gameplay and action. Secondly, maybe you and me have a difference on
what 'story' means. A story in RPG is one where you directly are able to shape how your character reacts to situations and shaping the world in which your character is in.

Also I don't consider Diablo an RPG
but a Hack and Slash.

People around here really need to learn the
definition of Roleplay:

To assume or represent in a drama; act
out:

To assume or act out a particular role:

And people around here need to realize that genres are getting increasingly maleable, especially if you're talking about role-playing games who have evolved beyond their name a few decades ago. It doesn't matter if you think that Diablo isn't an RPG, because that's what it is, regardless of wheter or not it has such an irrelevant factor like "role-playing"

the_one_54321
wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

shootist70
wrote...

'Tradtional' RPG mechanics have to be left behind as the genre wisens up and sees them for what they are - rat-mazes. Decent shooters are a lot more honest in their approach than traditional RPG's because they illicit more or less the same reacton from their players as almost all fiction does - the desire to keep going to see what happens next in the narrative.

In a good RPG, seeing the next part ofthe story isn't the interesting part of gameplay.

As mentioned, character development is the goal.  It's not a means to an end.  It's the end.  And it occurs throughout the game.  If the rat maze gives the player more opportunities to make meaningful decisions on behalf of his character, then they serve an essenatial role within the RPG.

Peopleneed to learn to stop extrapolating their own perceptions of enjoyment and interest onto others. Or to stop being such good trolls. I'm inclined to believe shootist is being serious, but I'm suspicious I just got trolled.

Yeah, you did. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wondering.png[/smilie].

shootist70 wrote...

The sort of character development you're referring to is a classic hallmark of badly composed drama, as it's shown by totally expositionary methods. classic RPG character development screens are exposition devices, and poor writers often use exposition devices to carry their plot through a lack of momentum, or when they just can't tie in their characterisation seamlessly within a narrative. There's no excuse for it. Everything should be within the narrative. The genre has gotten away with being lazy with this for too long, either through tech limitations or lack of talent, but there's no reason why that should become a genre characteristic simply because of fans clinging doggedly to what they're used to.

Relying on intrinsic rewards and exposition instead of compelling, seamless narrative is an incredibly ******-poor and mediocre treatment of the genre when you consider the real capabilites it has as a strong vehicle for dramatic content. It can offer things that other mediums can't, such as real player choice and combat action. The only thing it lacks at the moment is probably the most important factor - professional development within the lines of accepted fictive convention.

This!

As games become better and better at telling stories and developing to become a true art form in telling a narrative, it's time to just stop making excuses and just stop going the lazy way of "you make up the hero now".

We were willing to put up with voiceless, expressionless PCs before because, well, so was everybody else. Everyone lacked expressions and voices most of the time, so your character really did fit right in. But nowadays, in a world where even the most minor of NPCs is fully voiced and animated, it's just incredibly jarring to see your character act like a goddamned stage prop. Everyone reacts, everyone gets angry, sad, happy, excited, but only the PC remains looking like an idiot because God forbid he has an emotion that you didn't specifically order him to have.

For instance, this gets especially depressing during the sex scenes (besides the animation and the fact that the characters are just dry-humping each other while still clothed... ). Look at that face around 0:42 in the video. What the hell is that? Does it look like the face of someone having sex, or just some dope-eyes idiot that lost all his thought process at the sight of breats?

If you want to have a story with compelling characters, you have to make sure that the main character, the one who the whole story revolves around of, isn't the single most boring and emotionless piece of wasted screentime in the whole narrative. For that, we already have Keanu Reeves.

Modifié par Lusitanum, 30 août 2010 - 08:12 .

[Dr. wonderful]

Dave of Canada wrote...

MickyBlimpo wrote...

They're making fun of you guys again over at the rpgcodex:  ../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png

www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php

I.. I don't even know how the hell I was able to read that, I facepalm a lot on these boards but over there? My face is scarred with an imprint of my face.

So what! They really don't  have the Dragon balls to say that on this very fourm, so who care what they cry about.

Beside, we're going to assimilate them in due time, Because we are the Bioborg, Resistance is futile.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Lusitanum wrote...

As games become better and better at telling stories and developing to become a true art form in telling a narrative, it's time to just stop making excuses and just stop going the lazy way of "you make up the hero now".

We were willing to put up with voiceless, expressionless PCs before because, well, so was everybody else. Everyone lacked expressions and voices most of the time, so your character really did fit right in. But nowadays, in a world where even the most minor of NPCs is fully voiced and animated, it's just incredibly jarring to see your character act like a goddamned stage prop. Everyone reacts, everyone gets angry, sad, happy, excited, but only the PC remains looking like an idiot because God forbid he has an emotion that you didn't specifically order him to have.

Some of us enjoy making up the hero.  That's the fun part.  The reason I play games rather than watch movies is because I want to have some hand in the creation of the story.  I want to be able to explore all the possible characters who could fill this role in the story, and that list becomes shorter and shorter the more the games match your description.

[Tirigon]

Sergius64 wrote...


A good story isn't the point of a good RPG, it's the point of any good game. The point of role-playing to have options available to you while playing the game. When you're playing a game that only has the main quest... well what role playing is available to you? Couple choices during dialogues? That's not enough in my book, especially considering all the choices end up giving you the same result in the end, the conversation is resolved and the game is moved forward on its rails.

That´s indeed true. But for the record: You still don´t need inventory junk and horrible skill system and tedious combat etc...

[Sergius64]

Lusitanum wrote...
This!

As games become better and better at telling stories and developing to become a true art form in telling a narrative, it's time to just stop making excuses and just stop going the lazy way of "you make up the hero now".

We were willing to put up with voiceless, expressionless PCs before because, well, so was everybody else. Everyone lacked expressions and voices most of the time, so your character really did fit right in. But nowadays, in a world where even the most minor of NPCs is fully voiced and animated, it's just incredibly jarring to see your character act like a goddamned stage prop. Everyone reacts, everyone gets angry, sad, happy, excited, but only the PC remains looking like an idiot because God forbid he has an emotion that you didn't specifically order him to have.

For instance, this gets especially depressing during the sex scenes (besides the animation and the fact that the characters are just dry-humping each other while still clothed... ). Look at that face around 0:42 in the video. What the hell is that? Does it look like the face of someone having sex, or just some dope-eyes idiot that lost all his thought process at the sight of breats?

If you want to have a story with compelling characters, you have to make sure that the main character, the one who the whole story revolves around of, isn't the single most boring and emotionless piece of wasted screentime in the whole narrative. For that, we already have Keanu Reeves.

The issue is that you already have plenty to game genres that have set-in-stone PCs that should be providing the story-fix for you guys. Why don't you pile on the devs who make games of those genres to provide you with a better story along with the filler on-rails gameplay they already have rather then attempt to convert a genre who's whole definition is to provide customization and choices?

[Tirigon]

nhsk wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Its odd how so many people apparently enjoy the inventory management and filler quests the most in their RPGs... Its kinda sad the amount of conservatism they feel towards those pointless parts of the games. Inventory is completely irrelevant to the game and filler quests are boring, wake up and face the thruth..

So it's better to fly around a galaxy doing meaningless personal favors for your companions despite the entire galaxy is at stake?

No it´s not. These meaningless personal favors are exactly the kind of filler quests that are such a horrible, annoying sh!t.