925 réponses à ce sujet

[MerinTB]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I ask again: Is there room for roleplaying?
When I start an RPG, after I've gone through the character creation screen I know everything about my character. I know what his beliefs and goals are. I know what he likes. I know what he values. I know his sense of humour. I know everything about him. And the only part of the game I've seen in the character creation screen (and perhaps an opening cinematic).
Do the games you describe accommodate this? If not, then they're not RPGs.

I like this.  This describes how I play them as well.

[Lord Gremlin]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Is inventory the reason you play RPGs? (aimed at Sylvius)

RPG without inventory is like a shooter with mandatory obvious auto-aim. Still a shooter, but a crappy one.

[Lord Gremlin]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I ask again: Is there room for roleplaying?
When I start an RPG, after I've gone through the character creation screen I know everything about my character. I know what his beliefs and goals are. I know what he likes. I know what he values. I know his sense of humour. I know everything about him. And the only part of the game I've seen in the character creation screen (and perhaps an opening cinematic).
Do the games you describe accommodate this? If not, then they're not RPGs.

You've got the point. And I hope DA2 will actually be a true RPG.

[the_one_54321]

shootist70 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
All things that can exist in any kind of game, with any kind of mechanics, in any kind of setting. You're not talking about RPGs, you're just talking about good qualities in games in general.

Obviously an RPG would take these things to greater depths, and would offer choice - hence 'role-playing game.'

You're obfuscating instead of actually explaining anything. A developer could quite literally make a racing game that has everything you have described, to whatever "depth" you'd like.

[Giggles_Manically]

MerinTB wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I ask again: Is there room for roleplaying?
When I start an RPG, after I've gone through the character creation screen I know everything about my character. I know what his beliefs and goals are. I know what he likes. I know what he values. I know his sense of humour. I know everything about him. And the only part of the game I've seen in the character creation screen (and perhaps an opening cinematic).
Do the games you describe accommodate this? If not, then they're not RPGs.

I like this.  This describes how I play them as well.

I like this too!
I soon as I cant identify and think out the PC then it stops being an RPG.

Which is why unvoiced always beats out voiced in my books.

[shootist70]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I ask again: Is there room for roleplaying?
When I start an RPG, after I've gone through the character creation screen I know everything about my character. I know what his beliefs and goals are. I know what he likes. I know what he values. I know his sense of humour. I know everything about him. And the only part of the game I've seen in the character creation screen (and perhaps an opening cinematic).
Do the games you describe accommodate this? If not, then they're not RPGs.

You could post thousands of words and you will never convince me that the clunky, intrusive, contrived mechanics that classic RPG's use will ever be effective as a vehicle for characterisation and dramatic progression. They can't compare with long accepted techniques of effective storytelling and character interaction set within seamless, streamlined narratives that offer REAL roleplaying choice. The genre has been slow to catch up with professionalism here, but it's getting there, and Bioware are trying to lead the way, not 'dumb the genre down.'

Modifié par shootist70, 30 août 2010 - 09:42 .

[Tirigon]

MerinTB wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Lawrence- Mage of the Grey Wardens wrote...

I'm still trying to understand the "RPGs shouldn't have stats, looting or abilities" mentality.

You must be rather limited mentally not to manage that.

It´s really not hard: I play a game like Dragon Age because games I prefer gameplay-wise (such as halo, StarCraft2, DotA, AvP...) do not offer roleplaying opportunities. I do NOT play it for stats, looting, skill-based combat (maybe even with dice rolls to make the sh!t complete:sick:) etc... In fact I force myself to accept the Bullsh!t to be able to roleplay.

It´s like, if you walk through a pile of crap because behind it there is a treasure. You walk right in the crap because it´s the only way to get what you want, but is it really hard to understand that you would prefer if the treasure was located in a pleasing place instead?

You don't want an RPG - you want a hack n slash, maybe.  RPGs are about playing a role you create, cRPGs have traditions that define the genre (more or less) -
you want shooters and RTS's with story.  They exist.  And are not cRPGs.

NOT A SINGLE shooter or RTS game I know allows you to play a role you create. If you know one, please, PLEASE tell me about it so I can finally get the game I want.

Until you do I shall consider you as defeated by my arguments because it seems you are metally unable to understand a word of what I say.

[shootist70]

You're obfuscating instead of actually explaining anything. A developer could quite literally make a racing game that has everything you have described, to whatever "depth" you'd like.

This is a continuation of an ongoing discussion. If you want an explanation then please see my previous posts. I ain't about to start repeating everything here.

[Tirigon]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I ask again: Is there room for roleplaying?
When I start an RPG, after I've gone through the character creation screen I know everything about my character. I know what his beliefs and goals are. I know what he likes. I know what he values. I know his sense of humour. I know everything about him. And the only part of the game I've seen in the character creation screen (and perhaps an opening cinematic).
Do the games you describe accommodate this? If not, then they're not RPGs.

I like this.  This describes how I play them as well.

I like this too!
I soon as I cant identify and think out the PC then it stops being an RPG.

Which is why unvoiced always beats out voiced in my books.

Indeed.

What I don´t understand is: Do you need D´n´D-style combat, inventory and leveling for that?

Would you somehow "forget" all that after the character creation if, in combat, you are given a plasma rifle and shoot your foes down in Halo-style?

[the_one_54321]

Tirigon wrote...
NOT A SINGLE shooter or RTS game I know allows you to play a role you create. If you know one, please, PLEASE tell me about it so I can finally get the game I want.

I realize that this is a tired argment but here it goes one more time. Right now I am playing through ME2. Absolutelye everything about ME2 is a Third Person Shooter, except that lots of people insist that being allowed to design your own character and make story decisions makes in an RPG.

The point being that when you say "shooter or RTS game ... allows you to play a role you create" well ME2 provides you with exactly that.

[Sylvius the Mad]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Is inventory the reason you play RPGs? (aimed at Sylvius)

No.  My character is the reason I play RPGs.

To me, the meaningful difference between ME and other BiOWare games was that ME didn't let me play my character.  They let me watch someone else's character.

[Giggles_Manically]

Tirigon wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I ask again: Is there room for roleplaying?
When I start an RPG, after I've gone through the character creation screen I know everything about my character. I know what his beliefs and goals are. I know what he likes. I know what he values. I know his sense of humour. I know everything about him. And the only part of the game I've seen in the character creation screen (and perhaps an opening cinematic).
Do the games you describe accommodate this? If not, then they're not RPGs.

I like this.  This describes how I play them as well.

I like this too!
I soon as I cant identify and think out the PC then it stops being an RPG.

Which is why unvoiced always beats out voiced in my books.

Indeed.

What I don´t understand is: Do you need D´n´D-style combat, inventory and leveling for that?

Would you somehow "forget" all that after the character creation if, in combat, you are given a plasma rifle and shoot your foes down in Halo-style?

If I was allowed to have a DA amount of stuff to say, and could make as nuanced choices I could care less about an inventory, combat, or some LEET Epic PC.

RPGs are about the PC, not Swards and Spells dat go Boom to me.

[Giggles_Manically]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Is inventory the reason you play RPGs? (aimed at Sylvius)

No.  My character is the reason I play RPGs.

To me, the meaningful difference between ME and other BiOWare games was that ME didn't let me play my character.  They let me watch someone else's character.

I agree with this.
I have no idea how many times I yelled:
I didnt want to do/say that!

[Sylvius the Mad]

shootist70 wrote...

You could post thousands of words and you will never convince me that the clunky, intrusive, contrived mechanics that classic RPG's use will ever be effective as a vehicle for characterisation and dramatic progression. They can't compare with long accepted techniques of effective storytelling and character interaction set within seamless, streamlined narratives that offer REAL roleplaying choice. The genre has been slow to catch up with professionalism here, but it's getting there, and Bioware are trying to lead the way, not 'dumb the genre down.'

I'm not trying to save any mechanic in particular.  The mechanics don't matter beyond what gameplay they accommodate.

My problem here is that the ME mechanics DA2 is copying (the voiced PC and dialogue wheel) were the primary reasons ME didn't permit roleplaying as a part of gameplay.

I don't want to save DAO's inventory system.  DAO had a terrible inventory system.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 30 août 2010 - 09:52 .

[Tirigon]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
NOT A SINGLE shooter or RTS game I know allows you to play a role you create. If you know one, please, PLEASE tell me about it so I can finally get the game I want.

I realize that this is a tired argment but here it goes one more time. Right now I am playing through ME2. Absolutelye everything about ME2 is a Third Person Shooter, except that lots of people insist that being allowed to design your own character and make story decisions makes in an RPG.

The point being that when you say "shooter or RTS game ... allows you to play a role you create" well ME2 provides you with exactly that.

I have said many times that ME2 had, imo, the right idea.
However the Roleplaying opportunities are very few due to the horrible dialogue wheel and Paragon / Renegade score, while the shooter is bad. It´s just really, really BORING compared to good shooters.
lastly, the story is lower average at best.

[Tirigon]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

If I was allowed to have a DA amount of stuff to say, and could make as nuanced choices I could care less about an inventory, combat, or some LEET Epic PC.

RPGs are about the PC, not Swards and Spells dat go Boom to me.

THIS HUMAN UNDERSTANDS!!!!!

[Giggles_Manically]

Tirigon wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

If I was allowed to have a DA amount of stuff to say, and could make as nuanced choices I could care less about an inventory, combat, or some LEET Epic PC.

RPGs are about the PC, not Swards and Spells dat go Boom to me.

THIS HUMAN UNDERSTANDS!!!!!

Jade Empire stands out in this regard.
Beyond some gems there is no inventory really.

Its has amazingly fun combat, and story mixed in.

I just dont like a voiced PC, once they have one I just cant relate.

[the_one_54321]

Tirigon wrote...
I have said many times that ME2 had, imo, the right idea.
However the Roleplaying opportunities are very few due to the horrible dialogue wheel and Paragon / Renegade score, while the shooter is bad. It´s just really, really BORING compared to good shooters.
lastly, the story is lower average at best.

I won't strictly disagree with you on any of that. The point is that any style of game can have those kinds of things in it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

You dont want role-playing, you want role-creation.Role-playing is about you getting a role to play, never ever is it neccesarily one that you created. Some of the older RPGs got set characters you, just got to define them through choices in the game. Somehow the DnD style RPG has spoiled people and made them unable to play accept a role and just define it within the frames of the game.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Tirigon wrote...

Indeed.

What I don´t understand is: Do you need D´n´D-style combat, inventory and leveling for that?

Would you somehow "forget" all that after the character creation if, in combat, you are given a plasma rifle and shoot your foes down in Halo-style?

Shooter mechanics are problematic because they're driven by the player's skill, not by the character's stats.  It breaks the setting to have someone who doesn't even exist in the game world be that directly involved in the outcome of events.

[Giggles_Manically]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You dont want role-playing, you want role-creation.Role-playing is about you getting a role to play, never ever is it neccesarily one that you created. Some of the older RPGs got set characters you, just got to define them through choices in the game. Somehow the DnD style RPG has spoiled people and made them unable to play accept a role and just define it within the frames of the game.

Possibly true.

Then again, its not very fun to play some Super Space Marine/Badass who is not relatable at all.

[Sylvius the Mad]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You dont want role-playing, you want role-creation.Role-playing is about you getting a role to play, never ever is it neccesarily one that you created. Some of the older RPGs got set characters you, just got to define them through choices in the game. Somehow the DnD style RPG has spoiled people and made them unable to play accept a role and just define it within the frames of the game.

Think about that for a minute.  Yes, we could play a pre-defined character, but unless we know absolutely everything about him we'll be ill-equipped to make all of the possible upcoming decisions on his behalf.

For every decision to be made in the game, be it whether to save a kitten or even how to word a sarcastic remark, there is a right answer.  The right answer differs from character to character, but there is a right answer.

In order to roleplay a character - even one of someone else's creation - we need to know that right answer.  Every time.  And the easiest way to let the player have all of that information is to allow the player to invent all of that information.

Beyond that, being able to create our own character only serves to give us replayability, which is something I really enjoy but I wouldn't say it's an essential RPG component.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 30 août 2010 - 10:06 .

[the_one_54321]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Think about that for a minute.  Yes, we could play a pre-defined character, but unless we know absolutely everything about him we'll be ill-equipped to make all of the possible upcoming decisions on his behalf.

So what? It's a different style of role playing. The fact that it isn't 100% perfect role playing doesn't make it not role playing. Especially since even when they try to give you as much control over the personality as they possibly can, you still end up lacking a lot of control over the personality.

[Sylvius the Mad]

the_one_54321 wrote...

So what? It's a different style of role playing.

No, it isn't roleplaying.  If you don't know the character you're playing, you cannot roleplay him.

The fact that it isn't 100% perfect role playing doesn't make it not role playing. Especially since even when they try to give you as much control over the personality as they possibly can, you still end up lacking a lot of control over the personality.

No, you don't.  You necessarily lack some control over the character's actions (you can only do those things the designers intended), but every detail of the character's personality is known to you and the game cannot change it.

[the_one_54321]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
So what? It's a different style of role playing.

No, it isn't roleplaying.  If you don't know the character you're playing, you cannot roleplay him.

The fact that it isn't 100% perfect role playing doesn't make it not role playing. Especially since even when they try to give you as much control over the personality as they possibly can, you still end up lacking a lot of control over the personality.

No, you don't.  You necessarily lack some control over the character's actions (you can only do those things the designers intended), but every detail of the character's personality is known to you and the game cannot change it.

Oh yes the game can change it, and it does. In pretty much every single existing RPG to date. All responses are tailored by the writers, and they all contain their own connotations that can be seen in the reactions of the NPCs. If you imagine differently in your head, that does a lot for your own experience but it changes absolutely nothing about how the game was designed and implimented. If you say that it definitively not an RPG if the developers create the character, then no video game is definitively an RPG at all, because they all share that same shortcoming, because I can imagine just as much as you can with regard to the background of the pregenerated character.