925 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

AlanC9 wrote...

I'm confused. In SMAC you have to play one of the faction leaders. How are they less defined than Shepard?

Their personalities aren't defined at all.  If you want Sister Miriam to renounce her faith and focus on research, you can do that.

[Sylvius the Mad]

[quote]In Exile wrote...

When we discussed ME, you mentioned that you generated a background and personality for Shepard, as you typically do. You played the game for some time, before you encountered a line that was so dramatically different from how you envisioned your Shepard that it was impossible for the character to produce the line, and none of the lines you choose could (i) fit your character concept and (ii) possibly be consistent with anything you did before.[/quote]
The important difference here is that it's at least possible that one of the lines available would have suited my character.  The problem was that I couldn't find it because of that stupid wheel.

The voiced delivery is a problem, yes, and it makes it even more likely that any given line won't suit my character, but the greater problem was that I wasn't able to select a line at all, consistent or not.
[quote]This is precisely the Landsmeet for my character. Nothing in the game up to that point indicated that my personality is non-viable until at that particular point.[/quote]
Sometimes this can happen.

But it sounds like your personality held up through most of the game.   If that happened to me in DAO (and it certainly could), I would still get more enjoyment out of a single playthrough of the game (which would stop as soon as the event you describe occurred) than I would out of Mass Effect, because DAO at least would have allowed me many hours of actual roleplaying.

It's the oroleplaying that's fun.  Whether I can get to the end matters less.
[quote]It requires absolutely no such thing. My character was ambitious and wanted to become King. Ever since Alistair mentioned that Eamon had the reputation to replace Loghain, it was very clear to my character that as the son of one of the most powerful and respect nobles in the land, the only Teyrn for generations and (as far as anyone is aware) the prospective heir to Highever, he was as good a choice as Eamon. [/quote]
But as Alistair himself mentions in that very converasation, Eamon can't become King because he has no royal blood.  And neither do you.

Alistair is saying that Eamon would make a good King and that people would like him.  You don't know whether the nobles like or would accept you, and, like Eamon, you don't have a valid claim.
[quote]This all obfuscates the broader issue, however: that the game invalidated a personality three-quarters of the way through, in virtue only of its design, with absolutely no option available that could be meaningfully chosen by this character.[/quote]
Again, so for three-quarters of the game it worked.

That's vastly better than the 3 minutes characters last in Mass Effect.
[quote]No, it does not. You seem to think being who you want is about some self-contained internal imagine. It is not. Being the person you want beings being able to take actions, even if failure is absolutely gauranteed.[/quote]
I disagree entirely.  Who you are is different from what you do.  What you do tells us nothing useful about who you are.
[quote]There are certain things, that in virtue of who you are, you would not do.[/quote]
Yes.  This is the problem with Mass Effect.
[quote]There are other things, which in virtue of who you are, you will do.[/quote]
No.  There are things you can do.  And you choose between them consciously.  If you will do something without variance, then you have no free will.
[quote]When you are faced with a particular situation where any action consistent with your own character is impossible, merely by how the writers envisioned the scenario, then we have constrained choice forced on the player.[/quote]
Absolutely.  And I'm saying that's less likely wherever we're allowed to choose our character's behaviour.
[quote]Silent PC a far worse offender in denying me the ability to have insight into what the game allows and what character builds are viable compared to VO.[/quote]
The VO can't do that either because it comestoo late.  By the time you hear it you've already made your decision.

How do you make the very first decision in Mass Effect?  You've never heard Shepard's voice, and you don't know what the dialogue options are.  How do you choose?
[quote]A voiced protagonist as in ME presents you with the clear ability to express motivation and establish consistent. It is then possible to quickly and accurate predict what future choices are possible[/quote]
It is?  How?  Show me.
[quote]Being told 2/3rds through the game that my character has to choose actions that are logically impossible for him is not fun, especially when given no prior warning. [/quote]
No, but the first 2/3rds were fun.

Whereas, the opening cinematic in Mass Effect is fun, but everything after that is a disaster.

[AlanC9]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Their personalities aren't defined at all.  If you want Sister Miriam to renounce her faith and focus on research, you can do that.

Except that she can't run Knowledge and has -2 Research, of course. So yes, she can focus on research, but she'll always be bad at it.

Modifié par AlanC9, 01 septembre 2010 - 01:03 .

[LilKis1]

I would love to see more story, character, voice acting, character interaction, choices in Dragon Age 2

[Rubbish Hero]

Mass Effect was basically a rip-off of Logan's Run.

[Clover Rider]

Rubbish Hero wrote...

Mass Effect was basically a rip-off of Logan's Run.

Yay you are back .

[2papercuts]

LilKis1 wrote...

I would love to see more story, character, voice acting, character interaction, choices in Dragon Age 2

please no are you stupid i want more explosion and blood and spikes and they should get rid of story because its hard to follow

[Sylvius the Mad]

AlanC9 wrote...

Except that she can't run Knowledge and has -2 Research, of course. So yes, she can focus on research, but she'll always be bad at it.

She has an inherent disadvantage.  She'll only always be bad at it if you don't overcome that disadvantage, which you can do.  I've led the game in Research as Miriam.

I don't object to pregenerated characters.  I object to characters with pregenerated personalities.  What Miriam can do isn't within my power to change, but why she's like that and what her objectives are, those are mine.

The same should be true in any RPG.  The personality of the protagonist needs to be the player's to define.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 01 septembre 2010 - 02:57 .

[Gatt9]

Tirigon wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...

What you want is [ ....]  Not a Role-player,  not an RPG, where your character's skills are what matters.

Exactly. However, I still want to ROLEPLAY the character. Not during combat, but in Dialogue and in the way the world reacts to me.

A good example is the Witcher: Your combat success is mostly determined by your timing (skills have a big impact too, but if you fail to chain your attacks even highlevel attacks will do very little damage), nevertheless you are definitely playing the Role of Geralt and don´t have an avatar.

That's not Roleplaying.

Any game where battles are resolved by your personal skill with the mouse/keyboard rather than the character's skills,  you're not playing an RPG.  Adventure game maybe.  Shooter probably.  Roleplayer,  definitely not.

Dialogue doesn't make a game an RPG.  Nor does it make you "Roleplaying".  Wing Commander 3 had dialogue,  with choices,  that affected the game ending.  It wasn't a Roleplayer,  and no one would dare suggest it was.

Red Dead Redemption has dialogue,  with choices,  it's not a Roleplayer either.

For it to be a Roleplaying game,  your personal skill with the mouse and keyboard cannot matter in combat resolution,  or any other task like lockpicking.  What you are asking for,  the game you want to play is either an Adventure game(Tomb Raider,  Oblivion) or a Shooter(Mass Effect 2,  Fallout 3). 

Not an RPG(Dragon Age,  Baldur's Gate,  Planescape,  Fallout,  Bard's Tale,  Wizardry,  Icewind Dale,  Phantasie).

Dialogue does not equate to Roleplaying.  Just because there's conversation involved doesn't make it a Role,  if your character has been rendered an irrelevant digital iconization of yourself.

[Morroian]

Gatt9 wrote...
For it to be a Roleplaying game,  your personal skill with the mouse and keyboard cannot matter in combat resolution,  

In DAO I'd say the largest element in combat resolution is tactical skill or skill at programming the tactics screen, which are typically RTS elements, yet its not an RTS. In a shooter like Borderlands (which calls itself a role playing shooter) combat resolution is partially decided by mouse skill, but gun stats and character stats also play a large role in determining whether the shot hits or misses.

[SirOccam]

Gatt9 wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...

What you want is [ ....]  Not a Role-player,  not an RPG, where your character's skills are what matters.

Exactly. However, I still want to ROLEPLAY the character. Not during combat, but in Dialogue and in the way the world reacts to me.

A good example is the Witcher: Your combat success is mostly determined by your timing (skills have a big impact too, but if you fail to chain your attacks even highlevel attacks will do very little damage), nevertheless you are definitely playing the Role of Geralt and don´t have an avatar.

That's not Roleplaying.

Any game where battles are resolved by your personal skill with the mouse/keyboard rather than the character's skills,  you're not playing an RPG.  Adventure game maybe.  Shooter probably.  Roleplayer,  definitely not.

Dialogue doesn't make a game an RPG.  Nor does it make you "Roleplaying".  Wing Commander 3 had dialogue,  with choices,  that affected the game ending.  It wasn't a Roleplayer,  and no one would dare suggest it was.

Red Dead Redemption has dialogue,  with choices,  it's not a Roleplayer either.

For it to be a Roleplaying game,  your personal skill with the mouse and keyboard cannot matter in combat resolution,  or any other task like lockpicking.  What you are asking for,  the game you want to play is either an Adventure game(Tomb Raider,  Oblivion) or a Shooter(Mass Effect 2,  Fallout 3). 

Not an RPG(Dragon Age,  Baldur's Gate,  Planescape,  Fallout,  Bard's Tale,  Wizardry,  Icewind Dale,  Phantasie).

Dialogue does not equate to Roleplaying.  Just because there's conversation involved doesn't make it a Role,  if your character has been rendered an irrelevant digital iconization of yourself.

I think saying dialogue makes it an RPG makes as much sense as saying combat makes it an RPG.

On one hand, I think the argument about player's skill vs. character's skill is a good one, but I don't think it's really that simple. Does that mean you can't have an RPG in a setting in which personal firearms have been invented? What lengths would you have to go to in such a case to make sure it's not a "shooter" instead of an RPG? I'd really hate to see what a turn-based firefight looks like...it sounds incredibly clunky.

I think combat is but a piece of the RPG puzzle. I still believe there could be an RPG without any combat whatsoever. So if the combat is handled like a shooter, or like a hack & slash game, or like an RTS, or like whatever else, I don't think that alone should be enough to disqualify it as an RPG. There's more to an RPG than just fighting.

[Dave of Canada]

After reading this (and the comments), I don't know where I stand on the issue anymore.

[Never]

Dave of Canada wrote...

After reading this (and the comments), I don't know where I stand on the issue anymore.

As much as I love DA:O, I have to agree with all of his points to a degree.

[Dave of Canada]

mynameisdanza wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

After reading this (and the comments), I don't know where I stand on the issue anymore.

As much as I love DA:O, I have to agree with all of his points to a degree.

He stopped playing after Ostagar. Said the quest where you need to give the flower to Dog isn't "immersive story" as people say it is.

[Never]

I read that comment, I had no idea it was the author of the article...

[Sylvius the Mad]

mynameisdanza wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

After reading this (and the comments), I don't know where I stand on the issue anymore.

As much as I love DA:O, I have to agree with all of his points to a degree.

And I disagree with all of his points.

I really like the ground geometry in DAO - it's far better than other RPGs I have played.  I specifically noticed it during the Fade when I was a mouse.  Because the camera was so low to the ground I could really see how flat and level the floor wasn't.  I'd been asking for exactly that for years.

[AlanC9]

Is there some reason we're all looking at a page from some random idiot?

[Dave of Canada]

AlanC9 wrote...

Is there some reason we're all looking at a page from some random idiot?

I felt the need to link it because he's sort of what they are marketing for, he views Mass Effect 2 as the best thing since sliced bread (comparing it to Dragon Age) while he can't even be bothered to get past Ostagar before saying the game was a waste of money and such.

[shootist70]

Dave of Canada wrote...

[I felt the need to link it because he's sort of what they are marketing for, he views Mass Effect 2 as the best thing since sliced bread (comparing it to Dragon Age) while he can't even be bothered to get past Ostagar before saying the game was a waste of money and such.

Bioware are marketing their games for morons? Not these generalisations again *sigh*

[Dave of Canada]

shootist70 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

[I felt the need to link it because he's sort of what they are marketing for, he views Mass Effect 2 as the best thing since sliced bread (comparing it to Dragon Age) while he can't even be bothered to get past Ostagar before saying the game was a waste of money and such.

Bioware are marketing their games for morons? Not these generalisations again *sigh*

I didn't mean that, it's 5-am and I'm extremely confused. >.<

It's just that.. this guy here is what I hate. He happens to also be getting everything and more that he wants for DA2. I can't voice it correctly but.. yeah. I facepalmed at it.

[Arrtis]

Rubbish Hero wrote...

Mass Effect was basically a rip-off of Logan's Run.

Mass effect could be seen as a rip off  of a ton of movies.

[upsettingshorts]

Art is often derivative of or inspired by other art. More at 11.

[Tirigon]

Lusitanum wrote...

Speaking of which, ever played Morrowind? Wasn't it incredibly annoying when your character kept missing a slow, low-levelled enemy that was right in front of him just because your character sucked too hard. I won't care how useless you are with a weapon, you should be able to hit the immobile monster that is bitting you in the knees because you're allowing it to live too long. I mean, dying to a scrib just because my character decided not to hit a few times (while the little bugger never had any problem with it) must have been the most humiliating videogame death I've ever suffered in my life.

And this got especially ridiculous when I got really high-levelled, was a master with Short Blades, but as soon as I equiped a long sword, my wrist would physically hurt from clicking so much just trying to kill the lowliest of enemies. Why? Because I had a skill Blades skill of 5.

Funny you mention that because, yes, it sucks terribly.  In fact it´s the reason why I couldn´t stand Morrowind and loved Oblivion though, imo, Morrowind is worlds better in terms of story and atmosphere. Morrowind with hack´n´Slash combat would be great....

And maybe once it doesn't such so bad that it kills the entire franchise  before it even starts too? I mean, I'm just saying, you might get frustrated at the game's shortcomings and at the fact that there will never be a continuation to its story...

What you mean? So far I´ve only ever heard how awesomely great Alpha Protocol is.

[Tirigon]

Gatt9 wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...

What you want is [ ....]  Not a Role-player,  not an RPG, where your character's skills are what matters.

Exactly. However, I still want to ROLEPLAY the character. Not during combat, but in Dialogue and in the way the world reacts to me.

A good example is the Witcher: Your combat success is mostly determined by your timing (skills have a big impact too, but if you fail to chain your attacks even highlevel attacks will do very little damage), nevertheless you are definitely playing the Role of Geralt and don´t have an avatar.

That's not Roleplaying.

Any game where battles are resolved by your personal skill with the mouse/keyboard rather than the character's skills,  you're not playing an RPG.  Adventure game maybe.  Shooter probably.  Roleplayer,  definitely not.

Dialogue doesn't make a game an RPG.  Nor does it make you "Roleplaying".  Wing Commander 3 had dialogue,  with choices,  that affected the game ending.  It wasn't a Roleplayer,  and no one would dare suggest it was.

Red Dead Redemption has dialogue,  with choices,  it's not a Roleplayer either.

For it to be a Roleplaying game,  your personal skill with the mouse and keyboard cannot matter in combat resolution,  or any other task like lockpicking.  What you are asking for,  the game you want to play is either an Adventure game(Tomb Raider,  Oblivion) or a Shooter(Mass Effect 2,  Fallout 3). 

Not an RPG(Dragon Age,  Baldur's Gate,  Planescape,  Fallout,  Bard's Tale,  Wizardry,  Icewind Dale,  Phantasie).

Dialogue does not equate to Roleplaying.  Just because there's conversation involved doesn't make it a Role,  if your character has been rendered an irrelevant digital iconization of yourself.

Ok then I want a shooter with as much dialogue, choices, romances, interesting companions etc. as Dragon Age (or even more). I´m really not in the mood to argue semantics. For me such a shooter would be a better RPG than all you named, for you it would be a Shooter, that´s fine. I just want such a game, I couldn´t care less how the Genre is called.

[Tirigon]

Arrtis wrote...

Rubbish Hero wrote...

Mass Effect was basically a rip-off of Logan's Run.

Mass effect could be seen as a rip off  of a ton of movies.

And a ton of movies is a rip-off from older movies, which are usually based on something even older....