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[In Exile]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...
With Bioware, it's more about the illusion of choice. Almost every decision I made in ME1 had very little to no effect at all in ME2. That just doesn't cut it for me and so, decision making in a Bioware game ranks pretty low on my list of features that I truly look forward to.

For those of us who speak about choice and influencing the story, it is not about decisions carrying over. I never bought that these decisions would carry into ME2, with the sole exception of the Council choice. It is just not a plausible use of resources in developing a game.

The benefit is the choice as you make it; or rather, the possibility to resolve quests in different ways based on your character motivations and archetypes, and have the world visibly change as a result. Saving Feros/Dooming Feros creates an entirely different atmosphere, as does siding with the wolves/elves.

This is the essence of choice - the unique feeling of a different experience in-game.

[In Exile]

Andat wrote...
Based on not much research?  Mass Effect 2, for starters.  Also, Assassins Creed 1 & 2 (play 1 for  the story context), GTA4, Red Dead Redemption, and a few others.

The classification of ME2 is what we're debating, so using it as proof is just outright unjustified.

AC II has no choices, no opportunities to influence the game world, and a fixed story (it doesn't even matter if you assasinate someone through stealth or just run about and murder everyone in your way). No dialogue system, no quests with multiple endings, and no character customization.

I haven't played Red Dead Redemption, but I can certainly say it has no character customization at the least.

So, based on a bit of experience, you're not right.

Depends what you want out of an RPG game, but a levelling system, an inventory and quests are pretty much the standard features.  Asking for an RPG without one of those is... well it's asking for something that isn't an RPG.  And I'm speaking as someone who thoroughly enjoyed all the games I listed above, so I'm no elitist...  I just like an RPG to be an RPG.  If you want something else then go play that.

But those games did not provide what AlanC9 asked for. So we are still at an impasse.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

For those of us who speak about choice and influencing the story, it is not about decisions carrying over. I never bought that these decisions would carry into ME2, with the sole exception of the Council choice. It is just not a plausible use of resources in developing a game.

The benefit is the choice as you make it; or rather, the possibility to resolve quests in different ways based on your character motivations and archetypes, and have the world visibly change as a result. Saving Feros/Dooming Feros creates an entirely different atmosphere, as does siding with the wolves/elves.

This is the essence of choice - the unique feeling of a different experience in-game.

I think what's important is the ability to make not only choices, but a coherent set of choices.

I'm not overly concerned with the ability to see the result of my choices in the game.  I just want to be able to decide what sort of character I'm playing and then see what the character design chooses to do.

[AtreiyaN7]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...
With Bioware, it's more about the illusion of choice. Almost every decision I made in ME1 had very little to no effect at all in ME2. That just doesn't cut it for me and so, decision making in a Bioware game ranks pretty low on my list of features that I truly look forward to.

It should be pointed out that the rachni queen decision in ME1 carried over to ME2. Her agent speaks to you in Nos Astra if you freed her (not to mention revealing that, much as some of us always suspected, the Reapers were behind the Rachni War). However, it won't be until ME3 that we get the payoff for that choice, which will probably be that the rachni back you against Reapers. Just because you don't have something happen RIGHT NAO, doesn't mean that it doesn't influence what will come later. I swear, people have no patience when it comes to storytelling these days.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 11 septembre 2010 - 04:18 .

[OriginsIsBest]

For the love of god, No.

[AlanC9]

Andat wrote...

Based on not much research?  Mass Effect 2, for starters.  Also, Assassins Creed 1 & 2 (play 1 for  the story context), GTA4, Red Dead Redemption, and a few others.

ME2 is an RPG. I've avoided the others because they're more or less open world games, and those have consistently failed to engage me. I suppose I could check out AC1 in the bargain bin. (I'll skip GTA4 since I don't like cars). Although I'm not at all certain I should bother. What did you think I was looking for in a game, again?

Given what In Exile said about AC2, I don't think that game offers anything of interest to me.

Depends what you want out of an RPG game, but a levelling system, an inventory and quests are pretty much the standard features.  Asking for an RPG without one of those is... well it's asking for something that isn't an RPG.  And I'm speaking as someone who thoroughly enjoyed all the games I listed above, so I'm no elitist...  I just like an RPG to be an RPG.  If you want something else then go play that.

Just for the record, I don't dislike inventory and levelling. I'm indifferent to them. I only dislike them when they don't work well or don't make sense for the story; like in ME1, for instance.

And I like quests. I just don't like optional sidequests that my PC has no business even thinking about doing, unless the main plot is such that my PC has all the time in the world to complete it. 

Modifié par AlanC9, 11 septembre 2010 - 04:25 .

[AtreiyaN7]

slimgrin wrote...

This was exactly the problem.  ME2 suffered from sequalitus, which is why ME1 had a better plot and a better ending.

There simply is no excuse for cliff hangers in RPG's. I should not have to wait two or three years for a pay off in ME3. Either make it a stand alone story, or make your decisions that were imported from ME1 actually matter.

Instead, all we got were cameos. Oh, and who can forget the earth-shattering 700 plot points that Casey Hudson spoke of? 700... yeah right.

~edit~

HIs argument was that none of the choices mattered or had minimal impact..I consider the rachni queen fairly important, but it's a subjective judgment. Anyway, like I said in the other thread. I waited around 25+ years for the ending to the Dark Tower series. A couple of years to see the final game in a trilogy doesn't bother me too much. ME2 is the second act in a trilogy. Generally, it's in the last act of a story that you see everything that was set in motion in the beginning and middle finally come together.

[Dave of Canada]

Actually, one thing I do want from Mass Effect is the tougher choices that aren't completely black and white. Collector Base comes to mind. Dragon Age had a lot of good decisions but they often come out with people siding with one way and never really going any other way because they don't see the point of it.



I'm pretty sure a very low % of people sided with the Werewolves in Origins, any debate on why to spare the werewolves is actually fairly difficult to defend and the game gives you a happy ending choice that's possible. One of the things that Mass Effect has done is that the game often creates threads where people debate what decision is right and wrong, each of them being split even between Paragon / Renegade.



(Not saying that Mass Effect's choices didn't have happy-ending choices, it's just that the Origins player base is often one-sided with the decisions)

[Sjofn]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Actually, one thing I do want from Mass Effect is the tougher choices that aren't completely black and white. Collector Base comes to mind. Dragon Age had a lot of good decisions but they often come out with people siding with one way and never really going any other way because they don't see the point of it.

I'm pretty sure a very low % of people sided with the Werewolves in Origins, any debate on why to spare the werewolves is actually fairly difficult to defend and the game gives you a happy ending choice that's possible. One of the things that Mass Effect has done is that the game often creates threads where people debate what decision is right and wrong, each of them being split even between Paragon / Renegade.

(Not saying that Mass Effect's choices didn't have happy-ending choices, it's just that the Origins player base is often one-sided with the decisions)

With the werewolf choice in particular I think part of the problem there is it's your idea to just go slaughter the elves. If the werewolves were all, "He lied to you! Let's go kick his ass!" instead of "Pretty please go get them to lift the curse," the elf killin' scenario probably would've happened a lot more. Well ... in my playthroughs, anyway!

That said, even greyer choices would be nice. Or even just some more dwarf-decision style "I think I'm making the good choice oh crap he's a terrible king" stuff.

[Torhagen]

slimgrin wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

It should be pointed out that the rachni queen decision in ME1 carried over to ME2. Her agent speaks to you in Nos Astra if you freed her (not to mention revealing that, much as some of us always suspected, the Reapers were behind the Rachni War). However, it won't be until ME3 that we get the payoff for that choice,

This was exactly the problem.  ME2 suffered from sequalitus, which is why ME1 had a better plot and a better ending.

There simply is no excuse for cliff hangers in RPG's. I should not have to wait two or three years for a pay off in ME3. Either make it a stand alone story, or make your decisions that were imported from ME1 actually matter.

Instead, all we got were cameos. Oh, and who can forget the earth-shattering 700 plot points that Casey Hudson spoke of? 700... yeah right.

~edit~

I would have had no problem waiting a couple of months longer for ME2 so that Decisions from ME1 would have more weight as a Example you hear in the new about strange new ships that fit the profile of rachni instead you could encounter one of these ships yourself that would give your decision to let the rachni queen more depths Shortcuts are what i expect of other companies

[Tirigon]

Dave of Canada wrote...

My problem with Mass Effect is that the character interaction remains fairly minimum, at the very end of the game I just felt like these characters were there for... being there. In Origins, at the very end I felt bad for Alistair and hated putting him on the throne because he was my friend and I knew he didn't want it. I actually felt like Alistair was my character's best friend, ME1 and 2 tried to do this with Kaidan / Jacob and I didn't feel that vibe at all.

Romances also tend to be the shallowest experience in ME, you have a discussion where the person says you're attractive and they want you. You can tell them "Yes", "No" or "No." on if you want to romance them. Using Morrigan, she slept with you and then the entire romance played out afterwards where she changes from since you first met into somebody who's actually loving you. Mass Effect plays out like this, here's Miranda:

[Gender-neutral dialogue]
[Gender-neutral dialogue]
[Gender-neutral dialogue]
[Loyalty mission]
Female: [Thanks but I don't want to say anything more anymore.
Male: [You're hot. confirm/deny?]
Male: [You're hot part 2. Are you sure? yes/no.]
Male: [Sex scene.]

Then nothing.

You have a pretty accurate way of describing things.

[Tirigon]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Actually, one thing I do want from Mass Effect is the tougher choices that aren't completely black and white. Collector Base comes to mind. Dragon Age had a lot of good decisions but they often come out with people siding with one way and never really going any other way because they don't see the point of it.

I'm pretty sure a very low % of people sided with the Werewolves in Origins, any debate on why to spare the werewolves is actually fairly difficult to defend and the game gives you a happy ending choice that's possible. One of the things that Mass Effect has done is that the game often creates threads where people debate what decision is right and wrong, each of them being split even between Paragon / Renegade.

(Not saying that Mass Effect's choices didn't have happy-ending choices, it's just that the Origins player base is often one-sided with the decisions)

You have apparently NEVER been in a Loghain Defense thread, or whatever.

I have posted in so many threads debating every single unimportant decision in origins my "Your posts" list is spammed with it....

On the other hand, Mass Effect ALWAYS tells you what´s right and what´s wrong. Paragon = Right,  Renegade = EVIL

[Sylvius the Mad]

Tirigon wrote...

You have apparently NEVER been in a Loghain Defense thread, or whatever.

Not to mention Redcliffe.

Most players seem to think that one option was sensible and the other was idiotic, but we disagree about which was which.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 12 septembre 2010 - 08:39 .

[Vaeliorin]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
You have apparently NEVER been in a Loghain Defense thread, or whatever.

Not to mention Redcliffe.

Most players seem to think that one option was sensible and the other was idiotic, but we disagree about which was which.

Also, Bhelen/Harrowmont.  There were plenty of difficult decisions in DA, whereas I felt ME/2 lacked difficult decisions, with the possible exception of the rachni queen (and that shouldn't have been a situation where I was forced to make a decision.)

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

Hell, the choice between backing Harrowmont or Bhelen is pretty grey if you look at all the factors involved. They are both scumbag politicians and it's amusing to see the epilogue for each in addition to the dwarven origins.

I think DA:O had quite a few difficult moral decisions.


Damn, the above poster beat me to it...um...

Modifié par Ryllen Laerth Kriel, 12 septembre 2010 - 09:12 .

[Mordaedil]

Heck, I don't even think Dragon Age was that great of a game when it comes to RPG's. I daresay NWN was even better.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

In Exile wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...
With Bioware, it's more about the illusion of choice. Almost every decision I made in ME1 had very little to no effect at all in ME2. That just doesn't cut it for me and so, decision making in a Bioware game ranks pretty low on my list of features that I truly look forward to.

For those of us who speak about choice and influencing the story, it is not about decisions carrying over. I never bought that these decisions would carry into ME2, with the sole exception of the Council choice. It is just not a plausible use of resources in developing a game.

The benefit is the choice as you make it; or rather, the possibility to resolve quests in different ways based on your character motivations and archetypes, and have the world visibly change as a result. Saving Feros/Dooming Feros creates an entirely different atmosphere, as does siding with the wolves/elves.

This is the essence of choice - the unique feeling of a different experience in-game.

But it's still an illusion, even more so in Mass Effect 2. That game was pretty much on rails the entire time with some small choices in between and one big choice at the end. That last choice seemed like the only one that had any sort of effect in the game.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Vaeliorin wrote...

Also, Bhelen/Harrowmont.  There were plenty of difficult decisions in DA, whereas I felt ME/2 lacked difficult decisions, with the possible exception of the rachni queen (and that shouldn't have been a situation where I was forced to make a decision.)

I agree entirely about the rachni queen.  That was the only decision in ME that was even plausibly difficult, and then it was completely undercut by a very similar decision on Virmire you weren't even allowed to make (the genophage cure).

[Andat]

@AlanC9 and In Exile:

Yup I was being a little flippant However, I do disagree with you that Mass Effect 2 is an RPG. I think there's a point where a game stops being an action-heavy RPG and becomes a shooter with RPG bits bolted on - for me, ME2 is way past that line.



That doesn't mean I don't think it's a great game, I just don't think it has enough of a focus on RPG stuff like levelling up and improving skills to be called an RPG.



I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree...



BTW, @AlanC9, it seemed like you wanted a reasonably open world game where you didn't have to worry about assigning skills overmuch - the "RPG" elements. Perhaps I misunderstood what you were after.

[Kilshrek]

I think the thread is getting terribly derailed here fellas..



Anyway I suppose DA could benefit from a "Mass Effect-ified" story style. In ME the story is all Shepard, no matter who 'your' Shepard is. Playing ME 1 & 2 was like reading a really good book, where you're always flipping the pages to find out what happens to the protagonist. Only here you have a say in what happens. The world goes on, the story is told, but you influence the story as well.



I'm not saying this didn't happen in DAO but for whatever reason it didn't seem to suck me in like ME did.

[Taleroth]

Mass Effect 2's dialogue system wouldn't be half as bad if it wasn't constantly lying to the player. It's not setting "tone" regardless of what anyone claims, half the time the dialogue simply does not follow the choice. They might as well replace upper right with "Paragon" as the label for all choices.

[spernus]

Dragon age can certainly benefit from the ME 2 treatment when it come to the production values imo.

Give me better location,a more inspired world,better art direction,gameplay,interesting boss battle.A world which is more seamless would also be a +,instead of having this tired concept of a big city separated in 4 small zones (concept used in numerous old school jrpgs).

[Taleroth]

spernus wrote...
+,instead of having this tired concept of a big city separated in 4 small zones (concept used in numerous old school jrpgs).

Because they totally don't use that exact same technique in Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2, or Mass Effect.

No, it's only old jrpgs.

[Sylvius the Mad]

spernus wrote...

Dragon age can certainly benefit from the ME 2 treatment when it come to the production values imo.

Give me better location,a more inspired world,better art direction

I didn't like ME2's art direction at all.  Its level design was dull and repetitive.

One thing DAO did I really liked was having floors that weren't flat and smoother and level.  Whereas everything in ME (save outdoor environments, which were uncommon) had square edges.  And even outdoor environments had random square crates lying about.

IThe world isn't that square.  The game environments shouldn't be, either.