925 réponses à ce sujet

[Onyx Jaguar]

Scaling when done improperly removes the feeling of getting more powerful.



And that is an aspect I like about RPGs, well JRPGs actually. In Baldur's Gate I was helped out a little by leveling but I ultimately had to use my wits to beat it. In JRPGs emphasis on SUPER POWERFUL TO OVERCOME ALL OBSTACLES!!! However that is often broken by grinding.



DA and ME at least give you rewards for leveling that do tip the scale in your favor even though it is scaling. Which I didn't really notice in DA because it did it so well.

[wildannie]

I loved both ME1 & 2,
I didn't really miss the inventory in 2 as in ME1 the loot was not very shiney and it was all a bit clunky. I also found the Mako missions a bit of a drag sometimes - just my opinion.
Would have liked ME2 to have not moved SO far away from the original but I still enjoyed it as an RPG.

As for DAO, I would not, on the whole, wish for similar changes because I don't think it had the same problems - i love the game as it is - more than the Mass Effect series (my second fav games btw)

The only change I would make would be to lose the merchants chatter everytime you want to sell something - perhaps have an option to chat once already in the sale screen.

Modifié par wildannie, 27 août 2010 - 10:49 .

[dan107]

fanman72 wrote...

 Let's be honest here - a lot of elements from  traditional RPGs are really unncessary and don't add to the overall experience of playing a video game.  The strengths of many RPGs - storyline, characters, etc. is something I don't think bioware will be skimping out on anytime soon.  Now don't get me wrong, the gameplay in DA was fun but was overall it wasn't the greatest gameplay experience in the world.  The storyline, mood/atmosphere, and memorable characters more than made up for what I perceived to be technical gameplay shortcomings.  Mass Effect 1 had similar issues, most of which were fixed in ME2.  No I dont' care about dealing with a clunky inventory as long as i can alter my character's equipment's appearance.  No I don't care about dealing with inventory weight.  No I don't care about leveling up.  No I don't care about spending half of my time travelling to different places back and forth for "fetch this" type quests (what I call filler time).  

Keep the characters, story, plot, visuals, graphics, choices etc interesting.  Those are the only elements i really care from an RPG.  Then for all I care it can play like Dragon Effect 2.


*Is a typical Bioware forum posting nerd*



*Enjoys looting a new water bottle from a dead hurlock so that he can sell it for 3 copper*



*Spends 15 minutes getting to appropiate vendor because you're running out of inventory space*





My point is that there are a significant amount of elements among traditional RPGs which are flat out annoying and detract from the gameplay experience, rather than add to it

Agree with you 100%. Many RPG fans seem to forget the fact that many "traditional" RPG systems came about not because designers decided that that was the best idea but because of technical limitations of Pen&Paper and early computers.

Deep story and characters + fast paced action without the traditional D&D style crap to slow it down = great game. Thankfully Bioware seems to realize that.

Modifié par dan107, 27 août 2010 - 10:50 .

[Tirigon]

fanman72 wrote...

 Let's be honest here - a lot of elements from  traditional RPGs are really unncessary and don't add to the overall experience of playing a video game.  The strengths of many RPGs - storyline, characters, etc. is something I don't think bioware will be skimping out on anytime soon.  Now don't get me wrong, the gameplay in DA was fun but was overall it wasn't the greatest gameplay experience in the world.  The storyline, mood/atmosphere, and memorable characters more than made up for what I perceived to be technical gameplay shortcomings.  Mass Effect 1 had similar issues, most of which were fixed in ME2.  No I dont' care about dealing with a clunky inventory as long as i can alter my character's equipment's appearance.  No I don't care about dealing with inventory weight.  No I don't care about leveling up.  No I don't care about spending half of my time travelling to different places back and forth for "fetch this" type quests (what I call filler time).  

Keep the characters, story, plot, visuals, graphics, choices etc interesting.  Those are the only elements i really care from an RPG.  Then for all I care it can play like Dragon Effect 2.

Overall I agree with you. I have often said in other threads that leveling and inventory spam and stuff are annoying.

However, I don´t think DA2 should be "Mass Effectified", as you call it (nice word, btw:D). While I think Mass Effect 2 had the right idea with the changes compared to 1 I didn´t like the way it was handled in praxis. Imo, ME2 was better than ME1, but DAO was still by far better than ME2.

So in short: More streamlined YES in theory, NO if it´s done like in Mass Effect.

[JoNNo55]

To be honest it looks obvious to me as though they already are taking elements of Mass Effect 1 & 2 and slapping it onto Dragon Age 2; with the most obvious comparison being the Hawke - Shepard analogue.



From what I get the sense of, the story is more of a focused narrative than the first Dragon Age, which implies a slightly more linear path that occasionally branches than the relatively open plan DA. I don't think they've even mentioned taking control of other party members yet either.



Personally, I was a touch disappointed with a number of aspects of the original Dragon age, despite having played it through a number of times. For me, the conventional fantasy stereotypes, cliché dialogue, poor armor and weapon diversity killed my hype. And whilst i'm no stranger to the traditional RPG gameplay that has been lauded here, I found it slow, dull and repetitive. (I'm getting to the point...) SO for me personally, I wouldn't mind some of the magic of mass effect that seems to make the characters, story and gameplay come alive.



With the success of ME2's DLC system, don't be surprised if EA and Bioware look to consolidate DA's sequel in a similar style.

[Tirigon]

Arrtis wrote...

I rather they slow the game down with cut scenes rather than a lot of inventory management.

THIS so much.

[Tirigon]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...


Might want to get some medication for that ADD you seem to have. BOOM BOOM  EXPLOSIONS PRETTY! Press x to win teh game!

One doesn´t need ADD to enjoy fast, challenging games. Boring games suck. If I want Boredom I get enough in School / soon university every day. Don´t want to be bored in freetime too.


Also, Explosions =|= press x to win. I´ll tell you of some games which have pretty explosions AND are more challenging than ME / DAO.
Let´s get started:
1. Halo. All 3 parts.
2. StarCraft2
3. Alien vs Predator (well more ripping heads of than explosions, but still an actiongame)
4. WarCraft3 (+ addon Frozen Throne)
5. CoD Modern Warfare (Personally I think it sucks and is no fun, but it´s undoubtedly harder than ME / DAO)
6. Supreme Commander (1 + addon and 2)
7. Crysis

So that´s 7 games (13 if you count all the continuations) that don´t fit your prejudice. And fyi, I play almost no shooters and hate all WW2 wargames. Someone who likes them could probably name you another 50.

Modifié par Tirigon, 27 août 2010 - 11:08 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Yeah Sarah just mad that Every Extend Extra Extreme is so popular

[smecky-kitteh]

That would be pretty sweet although I know a lot of hard core fans would rage if they did something like that.

[Vandrayke]

I agree on some points but not on others.

Character progression is important. ME2 oversimplified this. End of mission XP rewards feel so cheap and tacky. I'm fine with punting normal leveling systems, but you have to replace them with story-related skill development or something like that. Like meet biotic character X, learn skill X from them. Meet scientist Y, have scientist Y give you better shield tech. Or something. Not "End of level have some XP and pick skills!"

Also, it must feel like you customize your character significantly by the end of the game.  With each class, it only felt like a couple of skills were worth picking, so at the end of the game, it didn't feel like I really chose anything.  Just that I picked the obvious skills.  

Modifié par Vandrayke, 27 août 2010 - 11:14 .

[wwwwowwww]

fanman72 wrote...

 Let's be honest here - a lot of elements from  traditional RPGs are really unncessary and don't add to the overall experience of playing a video game.  The strengths of many RPGs - storyline, characters, etc. is something I don't think bioware will be skimping out on anytime soon.  Now don't get me wrong, the gameplay in DA was fun but was overall it wasn't the greatest gameplay experience in the world.  The storyline, mood/atmosphere, and memorable characters more than made up for what I perceived to be technical gameplay shortcomings.  Mass Effect 1 had similar issues, most of which were fixed in ME2.  No I dont' care about dealing with a clunky inventory as long as i can alter my character's equipment's appearance.  No I don't care about dealing with inventory weight.  No I don't care about leveling up.  No I don't care about spending half of my time travelling to different places back and forth for "fetch this" type quests (what I call filler time).  

Keep the characters, story, plot, visuals, graphics, choices etc interesting.  Those are the only elements i really care from an RPG.  Then for all I care it can play like Dragon Effect 2.


*Is a typical Bioware forum posting nerd*



*Enjoys looting a new water bottle from a dead hurlock so that he can sell it for 3 copper*



*Spends 15 minutes getting to appropiate vendor because you're running out of inventory space*





My point is that there are a significant amount of elements among traditional RPGs which are flat out annoying and detract from the gameplay experience, rather than add to it

Guess it's a good thing you entitled to your opinion no matter how idiotic I think it all is.

If you don't want to play a traditional RPG then don't, but why do you feel the need to change the traditional to fit what you want? Arrogant much? 

[wwwwowwww]

Tirigon wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...


Might want to get some medication for that ADD you seem to have. BOOM BOOM  EXPLOSIONS PRETTY! Press x to win teh game!

One doesn´t need ADD to enjoy fast, challenging games. Boring games suck. If I want Boredom I get enough in School / soon university every day. Don´t want to be bored in freetime too.


Also, Explosions =|= press x to win. I´ll tell you of some games which have pretty explosions AND are more challenging than ME / DAO.
Let´s get started:
1. Halo. All 3 parts.
2. StarCraft2
3. Alien vs Predator (well more ripping heads of than explosions, but still an actiongame)
4. WarCraft3 (+ addon Frozen Throne)
5. CoD Modern Warfare (Personally I think it sucks and is no fun, but it´s undoubtedly harder than ME / DAO)
6. Supreme Commander (1 + addon and 2)
7. Crysis

So that´s 7 games (13 if you count all the continuations) that don´t fit your prejudice. And fyi, I play almost no shooters and hate all WW2 wargames. Someone who likes them could probably name you another 50.

Soduku is harder than all of those also, should we make DA more like it also? 

[Vandrayke]

wwwwowwww wrote...

Guess it's a good thing you entitled to your opinion no matter how idiotic I think it all is.

If you don't want to play a traditional RPG then don't, but why do you feel the need to change the traditional to fit what you want? Arrogant much? 

pot and kettle?  Wanting the traditional to stay the same just because you like it that way is the same thing.  Nothing wrong with either stance, but calling one arrogant while espousing the other doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  

[JoNNo55]

Vandrayke wrote...

I agree on some points but not on others.

Character progression is important. ME2 oversimplified this. End of mission XP rewards feel so cheap and tacky. I'm fine with punting normal leveling systems, but you have to replace them with story-related skill development or something like that. Like meet biotic character X, learn skill X from them. Meet scientist Y, have scientist Y give you better shield tech. Or something. Not "End of level have some XP and pick skills!"

Also, it must feel like you customize your character significantly by the end of the game.  With each class, it only felt like a couple of skills were worth picking, so at the end of the game, it didn't feel like I really chose anything.  Just that I picked the obvious skills.  

Yeah that's an aspect they really need to work on for ME3 / Future Bioware games if they want to use that system...

Meaningful ways to progress your character are key. The perks system in Fallout 3 was a greay way of making your character unique for example.

@ Topic, reading the descriptions of DA 2 as an 'action RPG' , with voiceovers, dialogue wheel, 'streamlined' class trees, i'm 100% positive that this will be more like Mass Effect : High Fantasy than DA:O. I personally don't mind this, i'm just glad they've redesigned the Qunari and everything else. Blows that you can only be a human though... *cough*Shepard*cough*..

[wwwwowwww]

Vandrayke wrote...

wwwwowwww wrote...

Guess it's a good thing you entitled to your opinion no matter how idiotic I think it all is.

If you don't want to play a traditional RPG then don't, but why do you feel the need to change the traditional to fit what you want? Arrogant much? 

pot and kettle?  Wanting the traditional to stay the same just because you like it that way is the same thing.  Nothing wrong with either stance, but calling one arrogant while espousing the other doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  

There is already a branch of RPG to fit what it is he is wanting, but now he's wanting to to change everything to be his idea of what RPG should be. There is room for different types, no need to change the traditional version.

[Rapidiul]

Tirigon wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...


Might want to get some medication for that ADD you seem to have. BOOM BOOM  EXPLOSIONS PRETTY! Press x to win teh game!

One doesn´t need ADD to enjoy fast, challenging games. Boring games suck. If I want Boredom I get enough in School / soon university every day. Don´t want to be bored in freetime too.


Also, Explosions =|= press x to win. I´ll tell you of some games which have pretty explosions AND are more challenging than ME / DAO.
Let´s get started:
1. Halo. All 3 parts.
2. StarCraft2
3. Alien vs Predator (well more ripping heads of than explosions, but still an actiongame)
4. WarCraft3 (+ addon Frozen Throne)
5. CoD Modern Warfare (Personally I think it sucks and is no fun, but it´s undoubtedly harder than ME / DAO)
6. Supreme Commander (1 + addon and 2)
7. Crysis

So that´s 7 games (13 if you count all the continuations) that don´t fit your prejudice. And fyi, I play almost no shooters and hate all WW2 wargames. Someone who likes them could probably name you another 50.

Battlefield BC2 also has balanced explosions. The grenade launcher is not as OP as other games, such as COD.

[Tirigon]

wwwwowwww wrote...

Soduku is harder than all of those also, should we make DA more like it also? 

It´s most definitely not. I had a sudoku book and the hardest ones were not nearly as difficult as Warcraft3 or SC2 Campaigns on highest difficulty.

Also please note that I didn´t say DA2 should be like those (though I would love a StarCraft RPG) but arguing against the statement every game with explosions is easy, when DAO is one of the easiest games I play.

But of course braindead Oldschool elitists can´t understand such reasoning.

[Nohvarr]

Now here's the thing, the only 'Mass Effect' like qualities we've seen so far are in the voiced dialogue system, and the 'Hawk' persona. To be fair, the story may be tighter than before, with less faffing about, but it makes sense in the context of the stories Naritive. I mean we are being 'told' the story by an unreliable narrator, he's not going to waste time on any events he feels are uninteresting or unimportant to the tale he's trying to tell.



I won't comment on the leveling system until I actually see how it works. ME 2 had some good ideas, I liked how the powers branched, and that you got more bang for each level you purchased. If they use an improved version of that for DA 2 I'm unllikely to be bothered by such a change.

I know the responsive combat has some people worried but I really don't see why. I mean if I pause the game, que up a series of commands, and position orders for all my characters, then watch my orders playout like some of the best scenes from LOTR, I for one, will not complain.

At the moment we have no idea how the inventory, magic, armor (etc) will work. So until we do, any worrying is premature.



Honestly though, Bioware does such a good job building worlds that it's almost a shame to base only one, strict, type of gameplay around them. I mean if Bioware said. "After ME 3 we're going to release an FPS/RPG (like Deus Ex, but taking advantage of our modern space technology, and the lessons we've learned since the first was released) set on the Citedel where you play a C-SEC agent (Human, Turian, Asari, or Salarian) rooting out corruption at the highest levels." I'd be over joyed. Then they could set the sequel on Omega (Now adding Batarian, Krogan and Quarians as playabale races) and have you play as a new character. A drifter that get's caught up in the various power struggles, amongst the gangs.



.....hang on a minute I'm going to write that down....



Back on topic, I'm glad that Bioware made some changes to the art style, DA dosen't really look like anything beyond another generic fantasy game. Here's hoping that the new gameplay mechanics allow it to stand head and shoulders above the pack.

[Raxxman]

Mass Effect Noir?

[wwwwowwww]

Tirigon wrote...

wwwwowwww wrote...

Soduku is harder than all of those also, should we make DA more like it also? 

It´s most definitely not. I had a sudoku book and the hardest ones were not nearly as difficult as Warcraft3 or SC2 Campaigns on highest difficulty.

Also please note that I didn´t say DA2 should be like those (though I would love a StarCraft RPG) but arguing against the statement every game with explosions is easy, when DAO is one of the easiest games I play.

But of course braindead Oldschool elitists can´t understand such reasoning.

Not braindead nor am I elitists. People can choose whatever they like, I have my preferences, but that's far from elitist. Fact is there is no reason to change one thing to mirror another, there is room in the market for both. Wait, I think I've said that already, twice now even.

Modifié par wwwwowwww, 27 août 2010 - 11:52 .

[shootist70]

JoNNo55 wrote...

SO for me personally, I wouldn't mind some of the magic of mass effect that seems to make the characters, story and gameplay come alive.

And I guess that's what it's all about.

I liked tradtional RPG's in their day, but I'm no fan of retro gaming. It's great to see the genre smartening up in line with accepted fictive techniques, and not staying dumbed down: saddled with clumsy, expositionary mechanics. Smartening the genre up in that way is actually a pretty difficult challenge. Recognising the genre's potential for fictive experience is one thing, but distilling it down to an effective vehicle is another.

It's too damned easy to fall back on the dumb 'traditional' shortcuts of presenting character progression and choice on seperate expositionary skill/equipment screens, rather than weaving a real feeling of progression into the actual gameplay and gameworld. It's also too easy to rip out those mechanics and then leave the whole thing without a satisfactory feeling of progression.

Personally I've found that the ME series delivers it fairly well, if not perfectly, so I've no problem with seeing more of it in DA2.

[Lord Gremlin]

OP totally missed the point. Seriously. The whole point is that there is demand for traditional RPGs. And DAO is the only one with more or less modern graphics. Well, certain elements were clunky, for example inventory needed more detailed sorting system, so you can actually instantly select your ranged weapons, shields, bows or crossbows without annoying scrolling.

I care for inventory and leveling up. For me personally leveling up is number 1 thing. And then story, characters etc. Some things in DAO lacked polish, but that doesn't mean they should dumb it down.

[shootist70]

Everytime I see 'dumbing down' mentioned I look at the post and laugh at the irony.

[Russalka]

How many threads must there be where I feel sorry for the OP for having a different opinion from the vocal masses that live in these forums and then getting stomped on like a snail on a road.

I personally don't want DA being like ME, but still like BG. But can imagine why Dragon Age with more action packed system and plot is charming aswell.

Modifié par Russalka, 27 août 2010 - 12:20 .

[Urazz]

I agree with the OP to an extent. I do like them 'mass effectifying' DA2 but I hope they don't take it too far. Stuff like the dialogue wheel and the talking player character allows for a more richer RPG experience I think. And a mass effect 2 type of XP gain system (based on completing missions) can work out fairly well and allow us to not have to worry about killing all the bad guys and stuff to max out our experience and stuff.



One thing I do hope they don't do is eliminate the inventory system like they did for ME2. Dragon Age is an RPG series so I do expect some inventory to play with. Now if they simplify it some by like getting rid of excess items then I won't mind.



Truth be told though, I liked the lack of an inventory system for ME2 but that's because it is a fusion of a RPG and a FPS and I prefer to have more action in it than RPG elements like an inventory system or big leveling system.



And I hope they don't simplify the combat system in Dragon Age 2 too much really. It's not like the combat system in DA:O was hard really. Though I can understand clipping off excess like some of the mage spells and rearranging the talent trees to be easier to deal with.