56 réponses à ce sujet

[Gilradthegreat]

 So inspired by the "what comes next" thread, I began thinking about modders, the way they have been approaching modding, and the way they might approach it in the future. Considering many people are getting ready to wind down after very large mod releases, I thought I might propose an idea I have had rolling around in my head for a while.

(WARNING: I am not a modder and haven't touched the toolset for anything except for utilities such as soundset editing and so on. I have also become really busy with work, so don't expect a lot of (or any) help from me on content creation!)


The purpose: To provide a set of modules that a player can enjoy with any character they have in their roster, in order to bridge the gaps between modules with different level requirements, but at the same time can also provide a full 1-20 campaign.

The basic idea: 20 modules, one level's worth of experience gained for completing each one. Each one should be stand-alone with a "jump in anytime" kind of feel, but at the same time sharing a common premise and setting to allow some feeling of continuity for those going 1-20.

More details.
-The length of each module should coincide with the experience curve... So short, five-ten minute modules for the very early levels, going up to two-hour modules as you approach Epic.
-Loot should be conservative. Since one of the main points is to use this campaign as a way to connect other campaigns with the player character, it would be a failure of design if the player has to intentionally stop using some items because the new campaign the player starts is not properly balanced for high-end equips.
-A variety of different module types should be available. I would say to start with, a pattern that appeals to different playstyles evenly (minus epic-sized storyline lovers due to inherent constraints) would be good. Something like:
lv1: Non-combat, straightforward
lv2: Combat-oriented, straightforward
lv3: non-combat, has a plot twist
lv4: Combat-oriented, has a plot twist
lv5: Non-combat, straightforward... etc
-ANYBODY can join, if people are interested we can discuss the guidelines and hammer out a solid list that others can follow. From there, anywhere from one mod to ten mods would be welcome so long as they follow the guidelines.
-Two people can do the same level slot, though I would prefer we get the whole 1-20 range covered before doubling up. With enough doubling up, this can provide more choices for how the player wants to play their character, by choosing more hack'n'slash mods over non-combat mods.
-Place and theme should be as generic as possible to mitigate continuity issues with other mods. I was thinking something along the lines of the main character being an adventurer/mercenary operating around the sword coast. Yeah haven't heard that one before:innocent:
-Party or single character? Both have their ups and downs, but it would have to be consistent throughout the entire list as requiring the player to suddenly make three more characters that won't be used again is kind of inconvenient. Thoughts?
-I would REALLY like support for Kaedrin's PrC pack, since the campaign is focused around building your character through a series of mods. But honestly, I'm just being selfish with this request As above, its either all or nothing, though its not so bad if there is incomplete support, as it just disappoints the player and gives them an incomplete experience, as opposed to inconveniencing them.


So who would be interested in this, either soon or in the distant future as something to wind down with after completing your pet project? I hope that, since I designed it as a real low-commitment, ad-hoc campaign project, it would also be relatively low-maintenance and pretty much give the modders the freedom to jump in or out without upsetting the entire progression. It probably doesn't even need a hub module, and could operate just fine with 20+ loose modules (unless there's some efficiency to gain by packaging them together). If you're interested, feel free to give your opinions on the guidelines too! I don't modders to have to retroactively change their mods later, so before any real talk on going through with the project continues, we should have a generally agreed-upon set of guidelines.

[WyrinDnjargo]

I gotta say, as you'll know from testing, the approach I took with LoWPM (and CW developed for the SoZ expansion) of modular stand-alone quests (which should now be tweaked for XP and level) made the whole building process a LOT more simple compared to what I'd done before in Dark Avenger. I could see that framework working well for a collaborative effort.

[Shaughn78]

This is a neat proposal. I have always enjoyed working on the group contributions.

For this project I would think that one builder needs to step forward and organize it. I think something like this should be combined as a campaign. This will allow item scripts to be carried throughout all the modules and for the project to be expanded. A central hub would be benifitial. If each indicidual module has it own stores it could easily throw the balance off. Assess to the individual modules could be setup through either a woldmap or overland map. This either should be MP or SP with the SOZ party. Companions would not work very well in this type of project but I could see having a module specific henchman to help tell a story.

I agree that a set of guidelines would need to be ironed out to maintain balance through each module. I also like the idea of mapping out the module types to ensure different playtypes and prevent redundancy.

I will be keeping an eye on this and if it comes about I would be more then happy to add a low level module. Maybe I can add a slightly more climatic point in the Horgarth story (to make up for the SOZ area).

Modifié par Shaughn78, 27 août 2010 - 01:13 .

[Shallina]

That's a great idea, but you need a general Idea about the story to have module that won't be 100% disconnected. And you need a lvl chart so 19-20 won't be the half of 1 -2 for the lenght of the module involved.

Also you could use 2 or 3 lvl for each mod instead of only one.

Modifié par Shallina, 27 août 2010 - 02:59 .

[nicethugbert]

I would really like to see a module that for once supports Kaedrin's class Pack. It's apparentlly not hard to do: http://nwn2customcon...ll-instructions

Modifié par nicethugbert, 27 août 2010 - 05:45 .

[nicethugbert]

Hmm, maybe this woould be a good platform fo the Pathfinder rules Kaedrin was seeking support for?

[M. Rieder]

I ilke the sound of this proposal and think it would be a fun opportunity for collaboration. A small single level module would allow a greater deal of thought, detail, and creativity. It would also be more manageable for some of our busier contributors.

*a little aside*
@ Nicethugbert :

I am going to do my best to support Kaedrin's in my next module, but it could be awhile. I am just getting started now.

I checked out some of the spells and they look really neat

Modifié par M. Rieder, 27 août 2010 - 07:55 .

[Gilradthegreat]

-Overworld map: I don't really think having an overworld map would be very effective for this mod; OWM's are best suited for giving players a non-linear world to sandbox in, while the design I have in mind is much more linear. Ad-hoc, jump-in jump-out, and low commitment, but still very linear.



-Packaged as a campaign: When you say item scripts can be carried between campaigns, do you mean special items that require a script to work? Considering one of the goals for this campaign is to better facilitate moving from one campaign to another, you would still have the problem of those items not working in other campaigns. Are there any other benefits to packaging it as a campaign? Less stuff to download? Faster loading? Takes up less space? What about carrying over variables for past actions (so as any returning characters could identify you later on)? Is that possible with loose modules?



-Hub module: Really I think the simplest solution would be best, like a lazy inn where leaving it would load up the next module in the campaign. Having stores available only in the hub sounds like a good idea, but I always liked the excitement of finding a new store and seeing if they have something interesting on sale. Maybe there could be a check that spawns additional merchants depending on your level? Also, saying "NO MERCHANTS" in the modules is probably a bit much, but if there were to be merchants inside the modules, it would be best if they sold things like consumables and unenchanted items, and if they were placed where one would reasonably believe a merchant would be (no extraordinary circumstances that just so happen to bring a merchant and adventurer together, fancy that).



-More than one level per module: Doing so throws a lot out of balance, I think. For the lower levels, it would mean modders could make longer mods, but for the higher levels, the amount of work could also increase, taking a 2-3 hour mod, and turning it into a 8-10 hour mod. If you want to make a longer mod, fill in some of the high level adventures.



Anyway, here's an early "track list" and guide:



BLOCK ONE, EARLY LEVELS:

Estimated completion time, 5-10 minutes each.

Scope: Comically small. e.g. helping an old lady with chores, clearing out a rat's nest

1: Non-combat, straight-forward

2: Combat-oriented, straight-forward

3: Non-combat, plot-twisted

4: Combat-oriented, plot-twisted



BLOCK TWO: YOUNG ADVENTURERS

Estimated completion time: 20 minutes each

Scope: Cheap adventurers for cheap jobs. e.g. clearing out kobold caves, tax collection

5: Non-combat, straight-forward

6: Combat-oriented, straight-forward

7: Non-combat, plot-twisted

8: Combat-oriented, plot-twisted



BLOCK THREE: TRAINED SELLSWORDS

Estimated completion time: 30-40 minutes each

Scope: Skilled labor for decent pay. e.g. clue-style murder mystery, caravan bodyguarding

9: Non-combat, straight-forward

10: Combat-oriented, straight-forward

11: Non-combat, plot-twisted

12: Combat-oriented, plot-twisted



BLOCK FOUR: WELL-KNOWN, TRUSTED BRAND

Estimated completion time: Hour and a half each.

Scope: High-responsibility jobs that can only be trusted to well-known adventurers. e.g. Stopping an assassination plot, liberating a region by slaying a dragon

13: Non-combat, straight-forward

14: Combat-oriented, straight-forward

15: Non-combat, plot-twisted

16: Combat-oriented, plot-twisted



BLOCK FIVE: REPUTATION PRECEDES US

Estimated completion time: 2-3 hours each

Scope: Greater powers begin to take an interest in your activities, either through your reputation or by mere dumb luck. e.g. exotic reagent gathering for a planeswalking wizard, defending a castle from a seige... from the outside.

17: Non-combat, straight-forward

18: Combat-oriented, straight-forward

19: Non-combat, plot-twisted

20: Combat-oriented, plot-twisted

*Note on level 20, I was thinking that however the epic finale ended, it would be cool if the party ends up with the power to planeswalk, opening the door for other epic adventures outside the Prime.



ESTIMATED 1-20 COMPLETION TIME: ~20 hours



-On the style guidelines: On the earlier levels, of course because they're so short they should be closely followed because there's not much room for anything else. But later on when the modules get longer and larger, don't be afraid to throw in some minor betrayal in straight-forward mods or some combat here and there in diplomatic scenarios. The idea is that the style guideline should be seen as the defining point of the mod, not the sole point.



-Dungeons: I would also like to point out that a dungeon crawl doesn't HAVE to be combat-oriented. Think of the asylum escape dungeon in BG2, that one took a good deal of thought to get through.



-How to fill out the chart: The way I think it should work is, any modder that wants to contribute to the project can claim some slots in the progression, that way anybody who wants to join in later on can see which areas need to be filled in.



Anyway, lets keep the discussion going!

[nicethugbert]

Sandboxes are very free form, Ad-hoc, jump-in jump-out, and low commitment.

[Gilradthegreat]

But they're not linear, that's my point



to accommodate nonlinearity, the mod would either have to scale for parties all the way from levels 1-20, which is a LOT of extra balancing for each modder, or it could not care in the player's level, resulting in the player getting bored with all the low-level designed modules and frustrated with all the high-level designed modules in trying to find something that is his or her level (An older version of White Plume Mountain did this, it was really difficult to enjoy). Creating a list that shows which mod you SHOULD start is a very poor and inelegant solution. I like the idea of simply leaving the tavern, and having the level-appropriate mod load automatically.

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

How about this, instead of having a sequence of 20 level-based mods, you have a overland map hubworld with several modules stuck in it as particular locations (villages, islands, forests, etc.)

Each module, on load, would check the level of the incoming player and give them an appropriate quest for that level. So, you could have 3 or 4 different quests in the same module, each designed for a particular level. If the module doesn't have a level-appropriate quest available, you could just chat with the locals or play minigames or something.

The campaign would have an overarching plot, though, that advanced according to player level. So if you load up the campaign as level 12, the plot would already be half-way along, and you would have to figure out what was going on by talking to different NPCs. This also means that different level-based quests could overlap. E.G., there could be a couple different level 3 quests, one in a forest, one in town, one in some wizard's tower. No matter which one you completed, the overarching plot would advance the same.

This would also make it easier to create half-level quests. Say there are five different level 16 quests, each of which give you about half the XP you need to advance to level 17. In terms of the overarching plot, all of these quests are happening simultaneously, but the player needs to pick two and complete them before anything changes plot-wise.

In the end, you should end up with a dozen or so different modders telling different sides to the same story, with the player basically bouncing around from module to module seeking out quests to level up and move the plot along.

Modifié par Lugaid of the Red Stripes, 28 août 2010 - 03:34 .

[nicethugbert]

The quest giver could be made to offer only level appropriate quests regardless of the linearity of the module or it's use of OM or World Map. Instead of scaling the encounters, scale the quest givers.

[Eguintir Eligard]

oh my god how hard is it to just level up your guy with a trainer. All this work because a module MIGHT have a 1 or 2 level gap? I'd rather see people's modules come out sooner and stick to making a new character when I play. People's campaigns as of late have shown greater results than the first early ones, and I don't think they need more things to burn them out. That's my 2 cents + a dime.

Modifié par Eguintir Eligard, 28 août 2010 - 05:33 .

[nicethugbert]

It's not just a matter of leveling up. You have to equip the PC for the module and that's hard to do if you haven't played it yet. Each module is different.



Also, if this is what gets him started making modules then so be it.

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

A project like this actually helps prevent burn out, by giving people a good reason to make smaller modules. I'd hate to see budding builders discouraged from releasing a module because they don't yet have a monster 10+ hour campaign ready.

[Shaughn78]

-WorldMap or Overland Map:

Will allow an easy way present all the module choices. When the player leaves the hub area and enters the map, have the areas be visible base on the level of the player. A level 3 character could have to access to the level 1, 2 and 3 mods. The worldmap would be more of a progress chart, while the overland map would have the player searching for the next level. As the game grows wandering monsters and such could be added to a world map and little easter egg things.
This will also allow for a way to present multiple level choices, a hack 'n slash level 3 mod and a puzzle level 3 mod. The multiple levels could be left open to allow a player to experience everything or once one is chosen the others could be locked.

Stores:
Having the one main store that is level specific in the hub area will allow for balanced equipment. I did not mean to say there shouldn't be any other stores, but requiring each mod to have or work in a store could be difficult and break immersion. Plus, if multiple people are creating stores then balance could be compromised. By using a campaign the stores could be created as a campaign resource and all builders would have access to them. Only a small group of people are creating and controlling the store inventories to maintain balance. They can be created for each level or the levels could be banded, much like how the global stores are handled.

Kaedrin's is a must for a project like this.

One of the things that would need to be created as well is a set HAK. Each builder would create their own mod but can use 1 or a series of HAKs that are universal for all modules that are created. This was how it was handles with the SOZ holdiay project.

Campaign:
-As modules are created it will be easier to add them. If the hub area is it's own module without a campaign folder, overrides or a HAK will need to be created to access those new modules. If a campaign is used those scripts used to access mods only need to be updated. Once a player starts a module the resources in that module cannot be updated without restarting the module, only campaign resources can be updated during play and have immediate effects in game.
-Control over stores (see above)
-Allows SOZ party system
-Allows world Map
-Item scripts and AI scripts accessible throughout all mods without use of HAK or override.
-Hub area and map scripts and conversations will be able to be updated as mods are added if they are campaign resources.

Multiple Same Level Mods
-This will create replayablility especially if only one is allowed and the other is locked. As more mods are created more choices and different combinations will be created.
-By having mods more specific to a particular way of play they will be created faster. In the hub area have a description of the level avaliable mods and their goals. Mod X for level 3: Search forest and wipe out specific creatures terrorizing a village. Mod Y level 3: Hire to negotiate trade deals. Mod z level 3: Inifltrate a local church and assassinate the paladin who is investigating an evil cult who has a front as a commerce guild.
-By creating specific goals per mod the player is allowed choice by the missions they choice, and it will streamline building.

Modifié par Shaughn78, 28 août 2010 - 06:58 .

[Gilradthegreat]

Don't worry Chaos Wielder, if this project ever takes off it's going to be a very slow, in-the-background thing that tries to co-exist with other modders' schedules, not take them over. I imagine the majority of the project's development life is going to be an incomplete list of small mods with lots of slots free until other modders feel they need a break. Which is fine by me, the project doesn't really need to be fully completed under any time frame, and when it is, people can still add to it and expand on it.



What are peoples' thoughts on a nonlinear overland map, versus a strictly linear hub which selects the mod for you? I guess I'm still not seeing any major benefits to a map, and it seems like people want one just because its there.



To keep it at one level per mod it would mean the map would either have to be really small or really sparsely populated, with all the higher and lower level locations hidden from view. Given the goals of the project, it would also mean overland encounters either won't exist, or won't give any reward (though you could launch a mod from an encounter). The map could be much more scalable for when you have multiple mods in the same slot, though. But I don't like the immersion breaking and inelegance of handing out a description and CL of the quest you're about to enter.



The only issue I really see with having a linear quest-producing script is that you have to think of a way to give the player a choice when multiple mods are available for the same slot. Other than that its very quick and easy for the player to load a character up, buy some supplies, and jump into a mod and go adventuring.



And about multi same level mods, while the project is designed to be expanded upon infinitely as modders add more quests, realistically I don't think the project will have to worry about having two mods in the same slot for a long time. There ARE 20 mods that need to be made first, after all

[rjshae]

There are a multitude of ready-made interlude style adventures in the 3rd edition archive of WotC's D&D site. Just look under the Vicious Venues Archive. Some of those would surely be suitable for crafting simple NWN2 modules. You could probably also use some of the maps on their site as well.

[Hellfire_RWS]

Dont forget resources like the 2e Book of Lairs and Book of Lairs II.

There are actually many resources for short adventures.

Modifié par Hellfire_RWS, 01 septembre 2010 - 06:24 .

[PJ156]

In terms of construction, perhaps a series of hubs. Towns or locations into which quest givers and level appropriate shopping could be placed. I am not sure that mods could occur within that hub as this would mean changing it to suit a given modder.

Each hub could have an associated world map of the jump to location type. A new mod could be a new location or an imported NPC into the hub who acts as quest facilitator.

The hubs could be for 1 - 6, 6 - 12, 12 - 18, 18 + Perhaps? They don't need to be much, I did a fortified inn for the Caravan Club, such a place would be perfect with traveling merchants and persons to hand out quests.

I am interested in becoming a part of this if someone takes up the reins. I wanted to be part of last years Christmas project but lacked the confidence and time.

Initialy I posted against single level mods but the more I think about it the more single level makes sense interms of packaging (my post never appeared - due to crash on PC).

Cheers,

PJ

Modifié par PJ156, 01 septembre 2010 - 07:00 .

[nicethugbert]

Map Folio I
Map Folio II
Minaitures Handbook(Chp. 7: Random Dungeons)
Dungeonscape
The North
classic Realms Products
Volo's Guide to The North
Volo's Guide to The Swordcoast
D&D Adventures
D&D Map Gallery
Dragon Lance Book of Lair
FR Book of Lairs
FR Book of Lairs II

Modifié par nicethugbert, 21 septembre 2010 - 02:26 .

[Gilradthegreat]

I like the idea of different hubs, maybe something as simple as the type of inn you find yourself in; for a level one adventurer, its a rickety old two-room shack with straw beds, and by the time you get to level 20 you find yourself in a lavish resort hotel complete with casinos



Using prefab areas and adventure guides sounds like a wonderful idea.



Is there any more discussion to be had on the fundamentals to the project? Or ways it could be made easier for the modders?

[PJ156]

I personally don't think a overarching plot will work but perhaps a time frame to work in (year in game time I mean) and the general area (sword coast, spine of the world etc).

Each hub could be in a separate area which is not unreasonable for an adventurers career and would allow the modders a little more flexibility

Also each hub could have rules and guidance notes, these may be for instance; no greater than 1500 gp shall be awarded per level, no greater then +2 equipment etc. Any limitations must only be to ensure balance and not to distill the imagination of the modders.

The splitting of the mods into groups also allows perhaps several of you talented folks to perhaps manage an area each, inserting mods into each as they are created rather then one poor individual having to do the lot.

I myself lack the technical knowhow to do this but I am very keen to be involved.

I see this as an excelent opportunity to step out of the bigger projects to create something focused and short. Creating and posting a mod is an enormous morale boost IMO and helps keep the interest on the bigger mods. It is also an opportunity to pick some of the ideas out of that book sitting next to you and making them real. I realise this may have been said  in the posts above and on the motivation post but me (and my bottle of Bombardier bitter) think it is worth saying again.

Cheers,

PJ

[rjshae]

Based on past experience I'm expecting this to follow the route of all net projects; lots of initial excitement and plenty of contributions, followed by a gradual die down as the concepts get narrowed down with maybe 2-3 people left to follow up.

Personally I think the simpler this is, the more likely it is to succeed. Perhaps something that is based on either a road from point A to point B, or a vanilla wilderness adventure. So maybe the start would be a road-side Inn in a relatively wild and unexplored part of the country. It would probably be more likely to see use if it were a low-level adventure, so maybe level 4-6? From the Inn, you can learn of several local tasks needing doing, with one person/map per task, all based on the original environment. The Inn could have a steady turnover of people, so different characters each time you go back, each with their own task and/or story. Maybe a colorful Innkeep family (with a tragic past) to link it all together.

Could be as simple as this: Angel "The Angle" Kordone is a scout for a new bandit company. (High search, spot and sleith fo hand scores.) He scouts his victims at the Inn by coming up and offering them a magic item (stolen from an earlier raid). If they ask to take a look, he'll mark them as having enough goods to be worth robbing. However, the price is overinflated, so they are highly unlikely to buy the item. Later, when they are on a different mission from the Inn, they are intercepted in a box canyon by the bandits. Since Angel filled them in on the party's capabilities, they are well-prepared for the attack. (Need to modify encounter based on party.) It's a tough fight for the PC at a tactical disadvantage.

Modifié par rjshae, 02 septembre 2010 - 03:46 .