58 réponses à ce sujet

[Urk]

The fighter class was pretty much made obsolete when they nerfed the resting rules. This unbalanced the entire game in favor of spellcasters. In a game with resting restrictions in place the fighter quickly comes back into his own.

Modifié par Urk, 29 août 2010 - 01:57 .

[PJ156]

In a game with resting restrictions in place the fighter quickly comes back into his own.

I would like the fighter to be a stronger more relevant character, not because I favour the fighter particularly, I like to mix up the classes I play, but because I like each class to be balanced. When one is missing you should miss it, four characters should be basically fighter, rogue, mage and cleric or thereabouts.

Yes the cleric is a champion of thier god and we might expect a little more from them for that (along with some restrictions as well), but the fighter follows a god too. They may use buffs but thiers come from a bottle and must be used strategically and with reverence to the fact that a round not spent doing damage is wasted.

I see your point on resting, but restricted resting is included in quite a few mods. When your buffs last 24 hours though this become mute, the cleric character need only think about how he uses the other spell slots they have and when they run out then they are better than the fighters anyway, so who needs to rest.

I struggle with this level of imbalance, but in the end (as you point out) the game has created this and we live with it. It is all down to choice in the long run, you don't have to play a cleric as a tank, healer or otherwise.

It's an interesting discussion though, I have learned a lot, despite being batted into the outfield in the earlier posts

I think I may try a cleric next time I play at high level and see what they can do.

PJ

Modifié par PJ156, 29 août 2010 - 02:41 .

[Vaalyah]

Some things:

1) please, guys, could you avoid so much abbreviations? For those who aren't English and who has not read D&D manuals in English, reading AB, PWS, RWOT and all the others implies not understanding a single word of the post. Maybe, if you have to repeat the word several time, at the beginning of the post, please, write something like "OC=official campaign", so at least we could follow your words. That would be very kind, thank you

2) I play a cleric. Always. And I've never got obsessed with all of these spells. I usually use my spells for helping NPCs (like Elanee or Qara, I give to them a better shield or armor bonus) or raising saving throws. I use some damaging spells (like holy light...don't know the English name) when there are too much enemies all around so I can't focus on just the few around me. Rarely I used Divine Power. When I enter a room, it takes too much time for the spell, so I usually enter and go straight in meele contact with the enemy. And my PC is still alive. Ok, my PC is far better than whatever fighter I've ever met, but what I am trying to say is that a) there isn't so much time to cast a spell and even without spells, a cleric is a good fighter.

[M. Rieder]

Wow! Lots of passion! I like it.



Here's what's hard for me to get around. A figher who gets the Frenzied Bezerker PrC is going to do 55-70 damage per attack using awesome power attack, or whatever it is (been awhile since I tanked).



In your experience, do clerics match that sort of damage output?

[M. Rieder]

PJ156 wrote...

In a game with resting restrictions in place the fighter quickly comes back into his own.

I would like the fighter to be a stronger more relevant character, not because I favour the fighter particularly, I like to mix up the classes I play, but because I like each class to be balanced. When one is missing you should miss it, four characters should be basically fighter, rogue, mage and cleric or thereabouts.

Yes the cleric is a champion of thier god and we might expect a little more from them for that (along with some restrictions as well), but the fighter follows a god too. They may use buffs but thiers come from a bottle and must be used strategically and with reverence to the fact that a round not spent doing damage is wasted.

I see your point on resting, but restricted resting is included in quite a few mods. When your buffs last 24 hours though this become mute, the cleric character need only think about how he uses the other spell slots they have and when they run out then they are better than the fighters anyway, so who needs to rest.

I struggle with this level of imbalance, but in the end (as you point out) the game has created this and we live with it. It is all down to choice in the long run, you don't have to play a cleric as a tank, healer or otherwise.

It's an interesting discussion though, I have learned a lot, despite being batted into the outfield in the earlier posts

I think I may try a cleric next time I play at high level and see what they can do.

PJ

I'm with you PJ, I am really surprised at all this infor on Clerics.  I never, ever thought of playing a cleric, but all this stuff makes them sound interesting. Maybe I'll give it another go.

[M. Rieder]

I think that balance remains in some sense when you combine a cleric and a fighter in a party. That is, if a buffed cleric is amazing, it seems that a buffed figher would be more amazing. That is, unless the good buffs only affect the caster and cannot be cast on others.



Are we taking into consideration improved disarm? How do you think that would change the mix.



Has anyone ever matched up a cleric vs fighter? Has anyone matched them up as melee opponents? What were the outcomes?

[The Fred]

PJ156 wrote...
I see your point on resting, but restricted resting is included in quite a few mods. When your buffs last 24 hours though this become mute, the cleric character need only think about how he uses the other spell slots they have and when they run out then they are better than the fighters anyway, so who needs to rest.

You can Persist short-duration spells, but that makes them take up slots 6 levels higher, which is a lot, and you can't even do it 'till 11th level (and then only on cantrips).

[MANoob]

M. Rieder wrote...

I think that balance remains in some sense when you combine a cleric and a fighter in a party. That is, if a buffed cleric is amazing, it seems that a buffed figher would be more amazing. That is, unless the good buffs only affect the caster and cannot be cast on others.

Well, some good cleric buffs affect all party, some don't. So a fighter won't get a full benefit from cleric's buffs. Also, with divine power cleric is also at 30 BAB, and if it's a battle cleric, a competitive str score as well. So, a fighter with full weapon focus line is probably only a few points of AB higher if divine power is the ONLY buff a cleric used.

Are we taking into consideration improved disarm? How do you think that would change the mix.

Disarm is broken. That been said cleric's ab > fighter's ab, so a cleric built for disarm will likely disarm a fighter, but getting disarm will be somewhat painful for clerics regarding that they get very few feats (may grab a couple of fighter levels to get it though ).

Has anyone ever matched up a cleric vs fighter? Has anyone matched them up as melee opponents? What were the outcomes?

A properly built cleric will trash a figher 10 times out of 10 in 1v1 fight.


2 Vaalyah: AB = attack bonus, BAB = base attack bonus, RWoT = Red Wizard of Thay

Modifié par MANoob, 29 août 2010 - 07:08 .

[nicethugbert]

Without class appropriate content, classes are meaningless.

[PJ156]

The Fred wrote...

You can Persist short-duration spells, but that makes them take up slots 6 levels higher, which is a lot, and you can't even do it 'till 11th level (and then only on cantrips).

I need to understand this more I guess, I can only do that by playing a cleric and seeing for myself. I seem to remeber my MU being able to persist Haste by the end of SoZ, that would be 3rd level. It seems to me much of this discussion is based on high level play. More balance must surely exist at lower levels?

Thanks for the clarification (and your most excellent timer, which I have downloaded and need to go and vote on.)

Cheers,

PJ

Modifié par PJ156, 29 août 2010 - 07:13 .

[PJ156]

nicethugbert wrote...

Without class appropriate content, classes are meaningless.

That and more, for me the game becomes damaged.

Of note to me is that when I balance played sheep and stone during testing, I thought the cleric the hardest to play of all at lv 1 - 3, in the same test in the Caravan Club the cleric got along okay (lv 3 - 5). The cleric did not shine in CC but neither did they require respawn as much.

He He, must be the way I play them,

PJ

[Vaalyah]

@Manoob: thank you for the explanation! :-)

[MANoob]

I guess some misunerstanding in this threa grows from the fact that both munchkin and non munchkin cathegories of players are involved in this discussion (probably because this is not a strictly character building thread) . So, some of the players may create suboptimal characters and not use their full potential. But things look different when you optimize and fully utilize abilities of your character. Still, they have no idea about it because they play in not very difficult environments like OC where nothing challenges them enough to force them to seek other ways. That's because OC was created for such players, not lost souls like me, who would sacrifice babies to satan for another point of AB xD.

[PJ156]

MANoob wrote...

both munchkin and non munchkin

LOL, go on let me guess, which one am I .

I've never had to power build a charcter on any mod I've played to date. Are there mods that challenge that much or are you playing on line?

PJ

[MANoob]

Currently I'm not playing nwn at all, just trolling on the forums again (forced to stay at home cause I'm sick :/), but for me it was mostly multiplayer expelience. Still, there are a few modules on the vault that can at least annoy you when playing poorly built character. Try Shrouded Sun -> Shadowdancer's Vault for example, and don't reload too much

Modifié par MANoob, 29 août 2010 - 08:32 .

[The Fred]

Before Clerics get Divine Power, they cannot really make awesome tanks any better than many other classes, so yes, this is a bit level-dependant.

[M. Rieder]

So 7th level is when clerics start to come to the front of the tank line. It is noteable that at this point, divine power will only last for 7 rounds. God help you if there is a conversation trigger before the big fight (I hate when that happens and all my good buffs run out before I am finished blathering and blustering!).



With Extend spell, an 8th level cleric can be a tank for 16 rounds before having to re-buff.



Only a cleric with the strength domain could ever persist divine power. I acutally remember looking up whether divine power could be persisted and I don't remember if it can be.



Other than divine power, are there any other "key" spells?





So, it looks like I am going to have to try this out on my own.



What domains should I take for an optimized clerical tank?

[nicethugbert]

But, then the nerf stick will know where to land.

[avado]

M. Rieder wrote...
Other than divine power, are there any other "key" spells?

That depends on the environment and the enemy (if you are aware before hand) of what you are facing. 

If you are going to a "human" area, you want to be ready with stun type stuff, damage spells, and melee type spells (Storm of Vengence, Harm, Divine Power, for example).

Going to an area where non-undeads and non-critables are (golems and the like) I choose to take massive offensive spells (Storm of Vengence, Firestorm, Divine power for example).

Going to an undead area, you need the Heals, Mass Heals, Silent Heals (the trick for Silent spell feat), Undead to Death, silent mass heals, and the like. 

Most classes truly love to face undeads, clerics, set for them, have no issues at all.  Most classes LOVE the non-critables, again, clerics have no issues (I wrote a guide on ECB on nwn clerics, if you are interested in seeing potential damage output of the cleric class, that could be a start for you).  

While this discussion has been interesting, just limiting the cleric to "can it tank better than the fighter" is ridiculous.   I guess you could play the cleric defensively and be the "healer", though, in my mind, you are disgracing your chosen gods and deserve the death that you will eventually recieve!  LOL  Go out with guns a blazing! 

More so in nwn, but the cleric, if it were possible to "solo" a mod or pw that was PARTY based, is one of the only classes that has the potential to (i knew of a guy who did a pw server with a non-cleric build, but he was buffed by a high level cleric before he did it, so did he really do it alone? NOPE) solo virtually ANY situation.  The same cannot be said of the fighter. 

Oh, did i mention that, with the right casting configuration, i cleared whole areas of pvm's (20-30) non-critables by myself in less than 5 mins.  how long would a fighter need to do that?  WIzards?  Probably one cast (wail!)!  

Lets go on to a more exciting discussion: who opens locks better, rogues or bards? 

[nicethugbert]

Much of the OMG CLERIC IS OVAPAWAD comes from PWs where people get to know the content intimately by farming it for all eternity, it seems. So, the player has the advantage of being able to plan his spell book for the inevitable or likely as well as pace himself through familiar content.

Since the cleric is a premier walking magic item rental facility, there is never really a low magic environment for him. In a high magic environment, the items replace many of his buffs so he has room for more Heals, Greater Restorations, and Mass Heals, Resurection, etc.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 30 août 2010 - 02:49 .

[avado]

nicethugbert wrote...

Much of the OMG CLERIC IS OVAPAWAD comes from PWs where people get to know the content intimately by farming it for all eternity, it seems. So, the player has the advantage of being able to plan his spell book for the inevitable or likely as well as pace himself through familiar content.

Since the cleric is a premier walking magic item rental facility, there is never really a low magic environment for him. In a high magic environment, the items replace many of his buffs so he has room for more Heals, Greater Restorations, and Mass Heals, Resurection, etc.

I was hoping that you had FINALLY something insightful to add. Alas, it seems that you have yet to play a cleric (only total newbies and mmo people AND those who havent read the posts in this thread would think that heals, restores and the like are the "key" spells!).  To put it in a more blunt fashion: IF you play a cleric and the party you are playing with wants, or worse, NEEDS you to heal them, then find a new party!  You will be playing with nwn2 idiots and they will get you killed (if they cant hotkey a heal or are too stupid to not take aggro they cant handle and require someone to baby sit them, maybe they really do need a baby sitter!)  By putting a cleric in the role of "healer" you are essentially gimping the entire party. 

But, by all means, listen to the people that have read maybe the manual and think that they know clerics from that!  LOL

[nicethugbert]

Bah, my proclamations are Presidential. Insight is for public consumption. But, here's some insight for you. I never said that Heals and such were the "key" spells. But, it is certainly possible to make a module where they are. In such a module, a cleric would be a god.

[Haplose]

M. Rieder wrote...

Wow! Lots of passion! I like it.

Here's what's hard for me to get around. A figher who gets the Frenzied Bezerker PrC is going to do 55-70 damage per attack using awesome power attack, or whatever it is (been awhile since I tanked).

In your experience, do clerics match that sort of damage output?

Hmm... Enhanced (Improved) Power Attack. And perhaps more importantly Supreme Cleave. Yes, that is strong vs groups of weak-to-moderate mobs, provided that they don't have good AC. Works especially well in the OC. Clears whole rooms of mobs extremly fast.

But if the settings are slightly more competetive and enemies have more AC, then the Power Attack AB malus starts to hurt. It may be difficult for the Cleric to reach that kind of damage per hit BUT it hardly matters if the Cleric due to superior AB lands every attack and the FB can't hit the enemy. The Cleric is far better protected too. And has heals, Regeneration, etc. If enemies can be stunned and have weak Reflex saves, Storm of Vengeance will make them helpless, and so on.

But in fact yes, I've seen some Cleric builds with this kind of damage output. I've even seen some silly dual spear Stormlord build. Might have even had Weapon Master in the mix, don't remember exactly now. Anyway was hitting for 60-80 damage per attack and somewhere near 150 on a crit (and critted very often).

[Thorsson64]

Nothing to stop a Cleric taking FB (I have an FS/FB which works quite well), and there is the Destruction Domain...

Modifié par Thorsson64, 30 août 2010 - 07:28 .

[The Fred]

The domains are another point. With them, a Cleric can essentially get two free feats (such as Toughness, or a trickier-to-get feat like Evasion) at 1st level.