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Did Bioware get the whole "trilogy concept" wrong? Is the ME games more of 3 seperate games rather than a trilogy?


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#26
Marzillius

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Mesina2 wrote...

Marzillius wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Marzillius wrote...

These are the things that prove that video games are not art. If Bioware puts money before what could have been a trilogy of games, then they are not artists like some say they are.



Most stupid comment I ever read in my life!


How was is stupid? It was sort of an addition to the on-going debate whether video games are art or not.



That debate is stupid also.
Games are art.


Some games are. I would call Dragon Age: Origins art. Mass Effect and games like... Zelda CD-i are not art however, in my opinion at least.

#27
Gyroscopic_Trout

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Mass Effect 2 really deviated from the whole 'movie trilogy' analogy we'd come to expect from the first game.  It felt more like a series of episodes from a TV show with far less of a connecting thread from one episode to the next, and which was intended to basically screw around in the ME universe in a way the first game couldn't.  Which, as has become painfully obvious by now, you either liked or didn't.  I liked it, moreso than the first, but that's neither here nor there.

Maybe it would have been better if Mass Effect had been intended as a two parter, with what we know as ME2 released in chunks of 5-10 hours of gameplay via dlc as "Mass Effect Episodes", kind of like what Valve tried to do with Half Life 2, and what Blizzard is now doing with Starcraft 2.  Then they release ME3 which would instead be ME2 as the final installment.  Thus, hypothetically pleasing everyone (even though I know that would be impossible for some people).

This whole notion that every fantasy or sci-fi story becomes magically better if it's patterned after LoTR or Star Wars is junk anyways.  Forcing writers to shoehorn a story into exactly 3 parts does't always work.  Lord of the Rings itself was not written as a trilogy, but in six parts that were later collected in 3.

Modifié par Gyroscopic_Trout, 27 août 2010 - 09:13 .


#28
epoch_

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KainrycKarr wrote...

epoch_ wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

 I won't buy it if it's an entirely new squad again.


You should probably find a new game to obsess over then.


You spend a lot of time on here for someone who always such negative things to say about the game/franchise.

Just sayin'.


I have incredibly high hopes for ME3. And I assume you're referring to my thoughts about returning squad mates as being negative. Those are not negative, they're simply realistic.

#29
ShadoX_LV

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Gyroscopic_Trout wrote...
..

Maybe it would have been better if Mass Effect had been intended as a two parter, with what we know as ME2 released in chunks of 5-10 hours of gameplay via dlc as "Mass Effect Episodes", kind of like what Valve tried to do with Half Life 2, and what Blizzard is now doing with Starcraft 2.  Then they release ME3 which would instead be ME2 as the final installment.  Thus, hypothetically pleasing everyone (even though I know that would be impossible for some people).
..

Funny that you mention the HL 2 episodes because thats how BW should have handled ME.. Sure HL2 is no RPG and is as linear as it could get, but you never felt like those episodes were made as seperate games to help newcomers.. they all felt like one story being continued..

Also, did the "tried" reffers to the fact that Valve takes a long time to make those or..?

#30
didymos1120

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"Did Bioware get the whole "trilogy concept" wrong? Is the ME games more of 3 seperate games rather than a trilogy?"

OK, hold on a sec.....

trilogy

1. Gr. Antiq. A series of three tragedies (originally connected in subject), performed at Athens at the festival of Dionysus.
2. Any series or group of three related dramatic or other literary works.
3. transf. and fig. A group of three related utterances, sayings, subjects, etc.



No.  They didn't.

#31
Moiaussi

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didymos1120 wrote...

"Did Bioware get the whole "trilogy concept" wrong? Is the ME games more of 3 seperate games rather than a trilogy?"

OK, hold on a sec.....

trilogy

1. Gr. Antiq. A series of three tragedies (originally connected in subject), performed at Athens at the festival of Dionysus.
2. Any series or group of three related dramatic or other literary works.
3. transf. and fig. A group of three related utterances, sayings, subjects, etc.



No.  They didn't.


Literal definition is only part of a 'whole concept.'

I wouldn't say 'wrong' but it could certainly have been done a lot better. ME2 felt a lot more like an interlude than actually advancing the overall plot.

#32
CroGamer002

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Marzillius wrote...

Some games are. I would call Dragon Age: Origins art. Mass Effect and games like... Zelda CD-i are not art however, in my opinion at least.



That's just retarded.
How Dragon Age is art while Mass Effect isn't?
Because it sucks?

Even Zelda CD-i game is art, but crappy one.

Modifié par Mesina2, 27 août 2010 - 11:16 .


#33
didymos1120

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Moiaussi wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

"Did Bioware get the whole "trilogy concept" wrong? Is the ME games more of 3 seperate games rather than a trilogy?"

OK, hold on a sec.....

trilogy

1. Gr. Antiq. A series of three tragedies (originally connected in subject), performed at Athens at the festival of Dionysus.
2. Any series or group of three related dramatic or other literary works.
3. transf. and fig. A group of three related utterances, sayings, subjects, etc.



No.  They didn't.


Literal definition is only part of a 'whole concept.'


I'd actually say it's the most general form of the concept.  It may very well fail at being a particular subtype of the "trilogy concept", but it still succeeds at being a "mere" trilogy (well, 2/3 of one).  Also: I was mostly just being a smart-ass.  Mostly.

Modifié par didymos1120, 27 août 2010 - 11:19 .


#34
Pauravi

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No.

1: They didn't introduce a different enemy. Almost from the beginning it is clear that the Reapers are working through the Collectors, just as Sovereign worked through Saren in the first game. The Reapers are a far-off threat who work insidiously and methodically through proxies to bring about their slow but imminent arrival and victory. It is how they have always been presented.

2: I don't really think this is a particularly relevant concern. I really don't feel that the cohesiveness of a trilogy lies in keeping a completely constant cast of characters. Just look at the George Martin "Thrones" books -- characters rise and die off constantly, and yet the story is maintained. Even so, comparing Han Solo to Udina or Hackett is misguided at best -- Han Solo is a main character, Udina and Hackett are supporting cast. Not many characters were actually left behind in ME2, it is just that new ones were introduced. I think that it makes sense in the context of the plot, and I have no problem with it. Indeed, your suggestion that they should have basically switched ME1 and ME2 around and introduced the ME1 squad later is no better in terms of continuity. It is simply your preference, it does nothing to address your very own concerns.

3: I very much disagree with this idea. In ME1 you start off barely knowing how to shoot a gun, and a SIGNIFICANT number of your skill points are spent on just making your weaponry reasonably accurate and powerful. In ME2 you start off as a very, very capable soldier. Sure, your special powers don't start out honed to a fine edge, but it has been two years and you've been raised from the ashes of a broken corpse. Even so, you still start out light-years ahead of where you were in ME1. "BUT!", you may argue.  "But in ME1, by the end you could massacre dozens of enemies without so much as ducking for cover!  Now you have to hide behind boxes just because a could geth show up!"  To which I reply, "Exactly, which is exactly why the gun mechanics and combat in ME2 is far and away better.  You should be thanking them, not complaining."


The fact of the matter is that the continuity in ME is just fine, and the problem is really with people's expectations. Realistically, Bioware cannot create three games that cannot be played as individual pieces, because publishers simply will not allow such a thing . But Bioware has done a fine job of continuing the stories of the characters from the first game while developing their characters (even if some people don't like the way some of them are developing *cough*Liarafans*cough*). In ME3 everything will come together, and everyone will realize what a good job they've done. I can see where they're going, I like it, and I have confidence in Bioware. They always deliver a gaming experience that is head and shoulders above other developers, and I don't see them petering out on the finale to their piece de resistance.

Modifié par Pauravi, 28 août 2010 - 01:26 .


#35
xlavaina

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KainrycKarr wrote...

epoch_ wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

 I won't buy it if it's an entirely new squad again.


You should probably find a new game to obsess over then.


You spend a lot of time on here for someone who always such negative things to say about the game/franchise.

Just sayin'.


Agreed. Negative comments make me irritated. I totally agree with Karr. However, I will be extremely pissed if our current squad is turned into cameos. I probably won't even buy the game, but then again, I'm a pro character development extremist. But I trust Bioware to make the right call squad member wise.

Marzillius wrote...

These are the things that prove that video games are not art. If Bioware puts money before what could have been a trilogy of games, then they are not artists like some say they are.


Games are most certainly art. I will follow the trend:

"the quality, production, expression, or realm, according toaestetic principles, of what is beautiful, appealing, or of more than ordinary significance."

Games fit this description. Game Informer agrees with me.

What is different between a developer and an artist besides the canvas they work upon?

Modifié par xlavaina, 28 août 2010 - 01:38 .


#36
KainrycKarr

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epoch_ wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

epoch_ wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

 I won't buy it if it's an entirely new squad again.


You should probably find a new game to obsess over then.


You spend a lot of time on here for someone who always such negative things to say about the game/franchise.

Just sayin'.


I have incredibly high hopes for ME3. And I assume you're referring to my thoughts about returning squad mates as being negative. Those are not negative, they're simply realistic.


Realistic maybe, but I have high hopes as well, and am hoping Bioware will surprise. And I'm referring more to your post history...you were around long before ME2 came out, and you always seem very troll-ish and negative(thought not always).

#37
MajesticJazz

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It is funny because Bioware tried so hard for Mass Effect 2 to be their version of Empire Strikes Back, but instead we got Matrix Reloaded.

#38
Tychu9

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 As a fan of star wars for 70% of my life I have to say that the characters don't always fight the empire in the Original Trilogy.

In fact Han Solo's story is driven by Jabba the Hutt in the original trilogy.  Every action he takes is in response to his enemy Jabba the Hutt.  

Luke's story is actually about finding out who he is and then how he can reconcile the mistakes his father made

Leia is actually the only one who has been fighting the Empire her whole life.

If George Lucas made a movie for each of the main characters as listed above you would get a very similar story and games much like Mass Effect 1-3.  With R2 and C3P0 making cameos in all three of course

Modifié par Tychu9, 28 août 2010 - 04:35 .


#39
ExtremeOne

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The thing that holds games back from being art is the story telling in games. Mass Effect 1 has a good story. the big problem with Mass Effect 2 was the story and this idea that it was the dark second chapter in the ME trilogy.

#40
ExtremeOne

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Tychu9 wrote...

 As a fan of star wars for 70% of my life I have to say that the characters don't always fight the empire in the Original Trilogy.

In fact Han Solo's story is driven by Jabba the Hutt in the original trilogy.  Every action he takes is in response to his enemy Jabba the Hutt.  

Luke's story is actually about finding out who he is and then how he can reconcile the mistakes his father made

Leia is actually the only one who has been fighting the Empire her whole life.

If George Lucas made a movie for each of the main characters as listed above you would get a very similar story and games much like Mass Effect 1-3.  With R2 and C3P0 making cameos in all three of course

   


thats true but in the original Star Wars Trilogy the main enemy The Empire and Storm Troopers were always in the movies even. Mass Effect 1 had the geth and reapers as the main story and in ME 2 it seems like its a replay of the first game with out any real reaper part . 

#41
kraidy1117

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ExtremeOne wrote...

Tychu9 wrote...

 As a fan of star wars for 70% of my life I have to say that the characters don't always fight the empire in the Original Trilogy.

In fact Han Solo's story is driven by Jabba the Hutt in the original trilogy.  Every action he takes is in response to his enemy Jabba the Hutt.  

Luke's story is actually about finding out who he is and then how he can reconcile the mistakes his father made

Leia is actually the only one who has been fighting the Empire her whole life.

If George Lucas made a movie for each of the main characters as listed above you would get a very similar story and games much like Mass Effect 1-3.  With R2 and C3P0 making cameos in all three of course

   


thats true but in the original Star Wars Trilogy the main enemy The Empire and Storm Troopers were always in the movies even. Mass Effect 1 had the geth and reapers as the main story and in ME 2 it seems like its a replay of the first game with out any real reaper part . 

You did't fight the Reapers at all in ME until like the last hour, you only fought the Geth. In ME2 it's the same, you fight the Collectors, tools of the Reapers however you learn more about Reapers, will this be used in ME3? Let's hope so.

#42
ExtremeOne

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kraidy1117 wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Tychu9 wrote...

 As a fan of star wars for 70% of my life I have to say that the characters don't always fight the empire in the Original Trilogy.

In fact Han Solo's story is driven by Jabba the Hutt in the original trilogy.  Every action he takes is in response to his enemy Jabba the Hutt.  

Luke's story is actually about finding out who he is and then how he can reconcile the mistakes his father made

Leia is actually the only one who has been fighting the Empire her whole life.

If George Lucas made a movie for each of the main characters as listed above you would get a very similar story and games much like Mass Effect 1-3.  With R2 and C3P0 making cameos in all three of course

   


thats true but in the original Star Wars Trilogy the main enemy The Empire and Storm Troopers were always in the movies even. Mass Effect 1 had the geth and reapers as the main story and in ME 2 it seems like its a replay of the first game with out any real reaper part . 

You did't fight the Reapers at all in ME until like the last hour, you only fought the Geth. In ME2 it's the same, you fight the Collectors, tools of the Reapers however you learn more about Reapers, will this be used in ME3? Let's hope so.

  


at least the reapers appeared in ME 1 at the end . in ME 2 all you see is the scene of the reaper fleet. they made a mistake by leaving the reapers out of ME 2. we should have been fighting both the collectors and reapers. that way it would have connected to ME 1 much better. 

#43
Fiery Phoenix

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Randy1083 wrote...

jklinders wrote...

Lots of money gets poured into making these games. The last thing they want is for some idio-er I mean a new player to the franchise to start at game 3, go huh?, put it down and trash mouth it to their friends. Better to set it up in a way to make him want to go back and get titles 1 and 2.

Any moron who jumps into a series where it's clearly marked "3" with a big red and white number deserves to be confused.

As much as I hate to say it, I agree.

#44
Stinkface27

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How can we know if they did it wrong or not until ME3 comes out? =)

#45
Moonasha

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KainrycKarr wrote...

CH already said they were meant to be as "standalone" as possible. Which is lame, and will end up hurting the franchise more than helping it, but that's where it is. Hopefully ME3 won't be "too" standalone. I won't buy it if it's an entirely new squad again.


I think it's so people new to the franchise can buy a later installment and still enjoy it.

#46
Fiery Phoenix

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Stinkface27 wrote...

How can we know if they did it wrong or not until ME3 comes out? =)

Our avatars are... remarkable. :P

#47
Marzillius

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Mesina2 wrote...

Marzillius wrote...

Some games are. I would call Dragon Age: Origins art. Mass Effect and games like... Zelda CD-i are not art however, in my opinion at least.



That's just retarded.
How Dragon Age is art while Mass Effect isn't?
Because it sucks?

Even Zelda CD-i game is art, but crappy one.


Can you please stop calling me stupid and retarded? I'm trying to hold a discussion with you. You go with name-calling apparently...

#48
spacew

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MajesticJazz wrote...

It is funny because Bioware tried so hard for Mass Effect 2 to be their version of Empire Strikes Back, but instead we got Matrix Reloaded.


Well, at least it isn't a "The Clone Wars" version.:P

But, seriously, you can't compare a videogame with a movie, and much less with a mythical one as TESB. In these games, where you have some freedom of action, even if its only being a ****** or a saint, there are lots of variables that the movies dont have to take in account. In movies there's only one storyline, thus its more solid and has less plot holes, in some cases.

I really hope ME3 doesn't turn being a version of "Matrix Revolutions":sick:

#49
JJ Long

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MajesticJazz wrote...

It is funny because Bioware tried so hard for Mass Effect 2 to be their version of Empire Strikes Back, but instead we got Matrix Reloaded.


What a bunch of garbage.

#50
redguppie

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When the third one comes out I will answer you then. If they tie everything together then yes.