27 réponses à ce sujet

[Chebby]

On my older characters I would always powergame my stats without careful planning.
I'd make a paladin with legal 18/??, 18, 18, 10, 14, 18 and have done with it, using the BG1 tomes to increase everything. After much thought, I came into a bit of a dilemma. I knew the Bhaalspawn was powerful and had a certain training under his/her belt, but I didn't want them to be too powerful. I still consider the Bhaalspawn to be superior to all NPCs, but it gets a little out of hand when you meet experienced adventurers who somehow manage to be massively flawed in comparison to you.

My view on tomes has always been that they are completely legal. Nobody should question a powerful character if they've used tomes, but admittedly some people have played the original BG many more times than BG2 and will simply want a new character complete with those tomes. Whether I'm rolling in tutu or SoA, I always try getting a roll that I'd be satisfied with once using the tomes. For example: We all like Ranger/Cleric multiclass, so here's my ideal roll for it:


(Note that I'd change cha for int or perhaps wis. Preferably int for RP.)

In BG1 I'd go for the tomes (constitution ASAP), in BG2 I'd use Shadowkeeper or some such tool after creation. I'd be left with:
18 (no slash) Str, giving me +1 to hit and +2 to damage, which I never saw as a problem when there are many strength boosting items and spells in the game.
18 Dex, providing the maximum AC benefit short of 21 Dex.
16 Con, adding 2HP/level, affected by my multiclass. (Some may argue I'm screwing myself over by not taking 18 con, but if NPCs survive, so will this character.)
17 Int, useful not only for fighting Illithids, but for RP purposes.
17 Wis, giving me a reasonable amount of bonus spells whilst suiting my RP needs and apparantly netting me +3 to my "maj def adj."
16 Cha, again suiting my character's RP needs whilst adding +4 to the NPC reaction adjustment.

So I'm just curious as to what other people think when they brave their character sheets. Do you max out everything your class requires and continue pushing it, or do you prefer having severe flaws due to RP or to simply prevent your character feeling too 'overpowered?'

Modifié par Chebby, 27 août 2010 - 08:07 .

[Flamedance]

Depends. One game is not like the other. Currently i'm playing a Geomantic Sorceror, at high levels probably the most powerful (read: cheesy) kit in existence. That game is a powergaming trip and i don't really care much about rp, there's no character concept, aside from becoming a God at the end of ToB. Nothing illegal, but i plan on doing the Planar Sphere mod and God knows i need every advantage i can get. So, i set Charisma to 9 ( the lowest a Geomantic Sorceror can go), knowing i'd get the Ring of Human Influence to get angelic charisma right in time for shopping.

On the other hand, i recently finished a game with a Cavalier with no min/maxing, minimal reloads, no association with the thieves' guild in the BG1 part of the game, no morally dubious quests. and only Good aligned companions.

I never go with a seriously flawed character, though. No Fighter with a strength of 14 or things like that.

[Morbidest]

I will spend 10 or 15 minutes "rolling up" a new PC, with the mental justification that since he/she is literally Bhaal's spawn and so probably has super"human" characteristics. However using something like Frabjous' Autoroller has always seemed a bit much to me.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

I usually don't reroll but simply press Ctrl 8 and then I decide what kind of stats my current vision of the character would have. My last kensai went with dex 18, strength 14 and con 10.

[Slyx]

I've been using Frab's auto-roller program. I don't see it as being as bad as Ctrl-8, on a cheesiness scale that is. I feel like it's just a time saver, not really a cheat, per se, since it uses the in-game roller mechanic, it just does it faster than I can, and can read and discard "crappy" rolls much faster/better than I can as well.



This is coming from the perspective of someone who has only been playing the game for about 2 months now, who keeps restarting the game (though I'm determined now to continue on with either my F-M-T or C-T), and has never made it past chapter 4 (cuz of restarts).

[Kilun]

I usually go with a 90-93 total roll. I've always wanted to go lower.

[Iseleth]

I don't usually reroll for very long. I try to have 16-18 for the most important stats of the class I'm playing, without reducing any stat below 10 (unless there's a RP reason).

Modifié par Iseleth, 28 août 2010 - 09:25 .

[The Fred]

Since you can reroll to your heart's content, I always thought the whole system was a bit silly. Is it cheating to raise my stats if I could do the same by spending half an hour rolling?

[ChrisUMD]

I would press CTRL-8, then lower my stats to make them realistic. For example:

Kensai Mage
15 STR
17 DEX
15 CON
18 INT
13 WIS
18 CHR

She has a total of 96 points, thanks to CTRL-8, but I dont't feel bad about it  because alot of her stat allocation are for role playing and cosmetic purposes only. In fact, a Kensai Mage with only 80 points to distribute can be even more powerful than my character if the player decides to min/max. Thus, I dont feel guilty at all about using CTRL-8 even if it technically is cheating.

[Ponce de Leon]

There is no better feeling than seeing a 95 or something by rerolling yourself!

But I suppose I could have used CTRL8 sometimes... depending on my mood (not all 18s though!)

[The-Scot]

5 rolls take the highest total and redistribute according to character type. One can end up with a lousy character, but having a random element make things rather fun.

[Cowboy_christo]

haha, for my last character i decided to use a d20 and roll and this would be the number of time i can reroll stats. As long as i get over 80 im happy and this usually end up making some realistic character for rp purpose.

[Seagloom]

I prefer rerolling until I'm satisfied with a result or bored. I know there are tools to give my character the stats I want and save myself time, but I never felt comfortable with it. In the end it's a single-player game so whatever the player feels comfortable doing is what they should do.



Usually I quit if I roll a 90. Having played a few paladins, bards, rangers, and specialist mages with 98 total points I don't see an appreciable difference in-game between the two totals. There is always at least one stat I leave low for role-playing reasons anyway.

[Gecon]

Meh.

How many hours I wasted back then on stupid rolling ... never will get those hours back. Sigh.

In the end i just used a character editor for it. SO much faster !

Today we get pointbuy, thats MUCH MUCH MUCH better.

Modifié par Gecon, 04 septembre 2010 - 07:20 .

[wise grimwald]

I use the re-roller if playing no-reloads and have no qualms about it. I will usually stop when I get a roll of 93 and if it jumps from 93 to 98, just accept what comes. However I was over the moon when I got over a hundred without using it.

[AnonymousHero]

Slightly OT: Don't some of the various multiclasses have drastically improved totals because of the minimum requirements for individual attributes? (I seem to remember R/C? Or was it F/D?)



Anyway, I always roll by hand and stop when I achieve 90 (or I get bored) or thereabouts. Very few of the characters I play actually require more than that.



Best roll ever was 97 (I think it was a F/M or some such). I was fun and all, but it made absolutely no practical difference in-game.



I think the only instance where I've resorted to Ctrl-8 was an Anti-paladin (13) -> Mage dualclass requiring an insane roll. (Yeah, playing that character got boring almost immediately after reactivating the anti-paladin class. Way too powerful.).



One thing I really don't understand is using the auto-roller. If you need a great roll just use Ctrl-8 and leave points that you don't need unassigned. They're both cheating, so I don't see why you'd choose the less convenient alternative.

[Slyx]

AnonymousHero wrote...
One thing I really don't understand is using the auto-roller. If you need a great roll just use Ctrl-8 and leave points that you don't need unassigned. They're both cheating, so I don't see why you'd choose the less convenient alternative.

I view Ctrl-8 as a cheat (since it's one of the cheat keys).  Doing things the traditional way, you just click your mouse on the "reroll" button over and over until things look good.  The auto-reroller does this exact same thing, so it's still using the in-game mechanic, it's just basically a macro doing the work at a much higher pace than you can.  It's more of a time/wrist/boredom saver than a cheat, imo.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

A build with pretty big requirements would be the elven ranger (13/13/14/8/14/8).

Slyx said:

The auto-reroller does this exact same thing, so it's still using the in-game mechanic,

Technically, the CTRL 8 thing is more part of the in-game mechanics than the reroller, so that's not a very good argument.

A macro by the way is considered cheating in many circles (for example strategy games, where it allows you to build your base more efficiently while at the same time even exploring the map (or whatever it is you have to do), which can give you an (unfair) advantage against an otherwise more experienced player.

Sure, this is not a multiplayer game, but that doesn't change the advantage it gives to you. Why should automatic rerolling be less cheating than CTRL 8 (+ lowering the stats) even if you end up with a higher stat total? I don't see the logic in that.

Anyway. BioWare already decided that you shouldn't have to go completely by the rules when it came to your stats. Rolls below a total of 75 are immediately dismissed and rerolling (and storing) is even part of the normal routine. Why not save you the hassle of sitting there for half an hour rerolling when the final stats are the same anyway? This is supposed to be a game after all, not work. So either way should be just fine.

[Slyx]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
Technically, the CTRL 8 thing is more part of the in-game mechanics than the reroller, so that's not a very
good argument.

It's a "cheat" code, therefore by it's very definition it is a cheat.  You're not even rolling.  You're completely overriding the rolling mechanic and manually setting your stats to what you want.  It's done instantly, etc.  There is no randomness to it.

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
A macro by the way is considered cheating in many circles (for example strategy games, where it allows you to build your base more efficiently while at the same time even exploring the map (or whatever it is you have to do), which can give you an (unfair) advantage against an otherwise more
experienced player.

You're talking about a much more complicated macro than the roller "macro".  You're also referencing a macro that runs during gameplay.

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
Why should automatic rerolling be less cheating than CTRL 8 (+ lowering the stats) even if you end up with a higher stat total? I don't see the logic in
that.

Because you're still rolling.  I can manually roll over and over and over, if I wanted to, until I got the desired total roll that I wanted.  Without "cheat" codes, it's impossible to manually set your stats.  By using the auto-roller, it's still rolling the exact same way a human would, it just speeds up the process.  It is still clicking the reroll button, it is still analyzing each roll and rolls continuously the same way a human would.

Since I'm bored enough to attempt to make an analogy:  You're given a task where 100 50lb bricks must be transfered by picking them up from a pile and carrying them along a set path, 100 feet away to a hole.  Doing it yourself, you can do 2 per minute.  You employ the use of a robot, and this robot can do 10 per minute.  The robot is still following the guidelines of picking up the bricks, and carrying them along the path to the hole, only it's doing it MUCH faster.  Ctrl-8 is like twitching your nose and magically making all the bricks appear in the hole at once.  You're totally bypassing the picking up and carrying steps.

Like I said, I'm pretty bored =P

Modifié par Slyx, 05 septembre 2010 - 03:05 .

[AnonymousHero]

You could look at it that way, but the robot isn't you. So you didn't get that über roll, the auto-roller did -- even if it did it exactly the way you would have done it.



Anyway, let's just agree to disagree. Everone has their own opinion on these things and it's pretty pointless (but perhaps fun) to argue about it. I was just curious what reasoning people use to justify one vs. the other.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Slyx wrote...
It's a "cheat" code, therefore by it's very definition it is a cheat.  You're not even rolling.  You're completely overriding the rolling mechanic and manually setting your stats to what you want.  It's done instantly, etc.  There is no randomness to it.

I believe one should make a clear distinction between a cheat code, which is basically nothing except the unlocking of a certain function, and a cheat, which is deceit and trickery. These are two different things, and just because they share the same name, they are not the same (like a fly and a fly) - though the cheat code can be used to the latter effect.

You're talking about a much more complicated macro than the roller "macro".  You're also referencing a macro that runs during gameplay.

Just because it's less complicated doesn't mean it doesn't give you less of an (unfair) advantage. Just because the game hasn't started yet doesn't mean you cannot cheat. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Since I'm bored enough to attempt to make an analogy:  [...]

So giving your work to somebody else (but getting the payment) is less problematic than simply having it done, *poof*, finito. I'd like to see an employer who agrees with you.

[Slyx]

AnonymousHero wrote...
Anyway, let's just agree to disagree. Everone has their own opinion on these things and it's pretty pointless (but perhaps fun) to argue about it. I was just curious what reasoning people use to justify one vs. the other.

I agree, pretty pointless argument =)  They're both cheating IMO, just varying means to the same end I suppose.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Just thought of a pretty good example showing how using cheat codes and cheating are different, and I guess I'll share:

In AoE2, for multiplayer games, there was an option to allow the use of cheat codes during the game. This means that during the game it is impossible to cheat anybody by employing cheat codes - because everybody involved had already agreed that cheat codes would be along the rules of the game.

[wise grimwald]

I personally agree with Slyx, but can understand those who disagree.

[Slyx]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

Just thought of a pretty good example showing how using cheat codes and cheating are different, and I guess I'll share:
In AoE2, for multiplayer games, there was an option to allow the use of cheat codes during the game. This means that during the game it is impossible to cheat anybody by employing cheat codes - because everybody involved had already agreed that cheat codes would be along the rules of the game.

Good example of how using "cheat" codes is something you can mutually agree upon using in THAT particular game.  I don't think that single example covers the entire gamut of cheat codes in all games though.

Why do you think they're called "cheat" codes, and not something like "optional game modifications".  In BG2, to have access to Ctrl-8, you have to manually edit your .ini file (using notepad, or some other third-party program), and then you have to bring up the in-game console, which you're not supposed to normally have access to anyway, and enter "CLUAConsole:EnableCheatKeys()".  The devs decided to label them "cheat" keys, implying access to them is enabling a cheat.  I don't see how you're arguing that using the "cheat" keys is not the same as cheating.  Sure, there are OTHER ways of cheating, but they all still reside under the "cheating" umbrella.