63 réponses à ce sujet

[Berkilak]

This has probably been broached before, and feel free to ream me out if so. I just haven't seen this particular theory put out there before, but I've not been the most adamant lurker.

The implementation of the Human-Reaper was extremely controversial among ME fans, as was the sudden uprising of the Collectors. It just seemed odd that, all of a sudden, the Collectors (mentioned in ME1, but seemingly more benign) would begin abducting thousands of human colonists to build a (relatively) tiny Reaper.

I put forth that, when Sovereign failed to manually activate the Citadel Relay and was actually destroyed, Harbinger's plan B was put into effect: use the remainder of the altered Protheans to create another Reaper to try again. Indeed, this is the only option to get the Reapers into the galaxy proper. They NEED to use relay technology to re-enter the galaxy, thus they NEED a Reaper on the inside to get them back in. Since, according to Vigil, Sovereign was the only Reaper left in the galaxy, with his death, they were essentially stranded (barring thousands of years of travel, which they may or may not have enough energy reserves for).

Humans were a logical target. As was stated again and again in ME1, human expansionism was extremely risky since they continually pushed the borders of the civilized frontier. Likewise, as made clear by ME2, these colonies were relatively unprotected as well as being remote. And of course, they were numerous. Since the Reapers could not implement a full-fledged harvest, they resorted to using the Collectors to harvest these easy targets.

Likewise, Harbinger wanted Shepard's body, quite possibly to both understand how a single, tiny organic unit prevented their re-entry and to make sure that he could not interfere again. Given the Council's denial of the Reapers, a second attack may actually have been successful.

In short, the Human-Reaper was essentially a backup plan to create another Reaper to carry out Sovereign's purpose, and Harbinger was the Reaper than enacted this plan. An act of desperation brought on by the unprecedented delay of their 50,000 year periodic harvest.

[Marzillius]

I also think that this was the purpose of the Human-Reaper. But this is a also a gigantic plot hole.

There does not live enough humans in the Terminus Systems to create a complete Reaper. And when the attacks just continues, human colonists would eventually begin to GTFO of the Terminus. Then the Collectors have no choice but to enter Alliance space and begin harvesting there. The Collectors are technologically advanced, but they would not be able to withstand the power of the Systems Alliance.

The Collector's plan was doomed to fail from the very start.

Btw: Where were the Collectors mentioned in ME1? I can't recall that...

Modifié par Marzillius, 28 août 2010 - 06:23 .

[Count Viceroy]

Marzillius wrote...

I also think that this was the purpose of the Human-Reaper. But this is a also a gigantic plot hole.

There does not live enough humans in the Terminus Systems to create a complete Reaper. And when the attacks just continues, human colonists would eventually begin to GTFO of the Terminus. Then the Collectors have no choice but to enter Alliance space and begin harvesting there. The Collectors are technologically advanced, but they would not be able to withstand the power of the Systems Alliance.

The Collector's plan was doomed to fail from the very start.

Btw: Where were the Collectors mentioned in ME1? I can't recall that...

I was saying this very thing to myself last night when I did the collector ship mission. They are going to target earth...

Yeah how. They only have one ship. There's no way they'd be able to tackle anything defended with that one ship. That reaper would have been left unfinished. And as far as I know, they aren't mentioned in Me1. They are mentioned in the books however.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 28 août 2010 - 06:32 .

[Berkilak]

Hence the smallness of the Human-Reaper. Some sort of stealth unit? Or just not enough to get to full size? The size seems to indicate they knew they were going with limited resources. Likewise, I recall a very small mention (perhaps a codex entry?) detailing their odd trade requests.

[Raizo]

Overall, most of ME2's plot was very pointless at the end of the day.Why were the Collectors kidnapping humans? Because they were/are the reapers slaves and they were 'collecting' humans to use a raw genetic material to build a 'Human Reaper'. Why build a 'Human Reaper'? We're never really told why although the game does hint that the the Reapers have taken an interest in humanity ever since Shepard played a part in Soverign's defeat, they are apparently impressed with how genetcally diverse the human race is in comparrion to all the other aliens out there.

Still a stupid plot if you ask me.

[Count Viceroy]

Honestly, I think the plot just fell a bit flat because we don't actually know enough about the reapers yet. The reapers weren't even shown in the game until like the last second where it was revealed that we'd been dealing with a proxy reaper all along.  It'll be explained in ME3 and I'm sure it'll make more sense then .

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 28 août 2010 - 07:55 .

[heretica]

EDI explains all this back in the Collectors' Base.

The Reaper looks like a human because they adapt the shape of the "material" they use to build. In this case it was humans, so it looks like a human. If you don't believe me you can replay the suicide mission and pay attention to what EDI says.

She also mentions that the reapers are Sentient Machines. Meaning, they are not like other machines because as the name says, they are "sentient", therefore they can feel.

Why are they building another Reaper?

Well, this is my theory. Their vital cycle is like ours. They need to reproduce. How do they do it? Every 50.000 years, they come in and harvest the technology and organic life. Why? Well, they are made from organic beings, as we could see. And they need to indoctrinate and enslave a part of that specie they are harvesting so they get the cheap labor. As EDI said, the Collectors (Former Protheans) are just labor for the reapers. They are building the human larva.

So it goes like this: They are in dark space, asleep. Previously, they had left all the technology for another civilization to rise and evolve. When the Reapers feel it's the time, they come in, harvest everyone and everything and return to dark space. Waht do they do with the people and technology? They build more Reapers. This is their vital cycle and the means they use to reproduce.

If you speak to Legion, he will tell you about Nazara (Sovereing) and the heretics. And how every Reaper out there is one independant "thing" ( i don't know how to call it hehe). Oposed to the Geth, who are have this collective entinty. They are all one "mind" in different platforms "containers/synth body"

Modifié par Catt128, 28 août 2010 - 08:09 .

[Shadow_broker]

I still think the Human reaper was an explendable mindless ground force reaper



How do reapers attack planets exactly? I think a well trained Galatic military is a decent match for mindless husk zombies and geth remenants

Probaly drop human reaper on planet then he blows buildings up like godzilla

[MisterDyslexo]

Although the op's theory seems far more likely, does anybody  think that the Collectors somehow decided to build a human reaper to rebel against all the other ones? Harbinger's presence (assuming its a reaper) deosn't make a whole lot of sense in this kind of position, but its just a thought

[Moiaussi]

Shadow_broker wrote...

I still think the Human reaper was an explendable mindless ground force reaper

How do reapers attack planets exactly? I think a well trained Galatic military is a decent match for mindless husk zombies and geth remenants
Probaly drop human reaper on planet then he blows buildings up like godzilla

You are missing orbital bombardment, swarms, and indoctrination. Remember back on Eden? The sound in survivors' heads so strong they couldn't think? Not easy to fight with that happening.

[Sajuro]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Although the op's theory seems far more likely, does anybody  think that the Collectors somehow decided to build a human reaper to rebel against all the other ones? Harbinger's presence (assuming its a reaper) deosn't make a whole lot of sense in this kind of position, but its just a thought

Collector General: Finally we will be able to end the cycle of extinction once and for all -computers detect normandy- we must stop them at all cost!
-few hours later of in game time-
-normandy's flying away from the exploding base-
Shepard: Good job guys, we dealt another blow to the reapers.

[Berkilak]

Catt128 wrote...

EDI explains all this back in the Collectors' Base.

 EDI explains the how but not the why. It is fairly evident that the Reapers are using humans (which they are interested in due to reasons you listed) as a catalyst for their reproductive cycle. The oddity lies in the circumstances.

Firstly, if the Human-Reaper would have been constructed, it would have been the only one on the galaxy. I think we can safely assume that this is a unique situation in the Reaper cycle - previous Reapers were most assuredly created during galactic harvests, not secreted away in a hitherto inaccessible area of the galaxy. Why go through the trouble of creating that single Reaper if the harvest is able to occur anyway? The answer is obvious: that Reaper was necessary for the harvest to begin.

Secondly, the Reaper was relatively small. This could be be for a number of reasons. Perhaps it would eventually "grow" to Reaper size as organic life develops. Perhaps it was merely the endoskeleton of Reapers that resemble the species it was assembled into. Or perhaps they knew their resources were limited and downsized. I obviously prefer the latter option as it fits my theory, but all are viable.

I hardly think that the Reapers would go through all the trouble of creating one of their kind remotely through the Collectors simply because they think humans, notably Shepard, are "neat." That may have been a factor for selecting the race of which the Reaper would be assembled, but it was assuredly not the sole purpose for its creation.

[upsettingshorts]

Well, it should be pointed out that the Prothean's meddling messed with the Reapers' usual plans. If the Conduit hadn't been created and the Keepers not been modified, the Reapers' would have already been a couple of years into their genocide.



So they're improvising a bit I think.

[Berkilak]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Although the op's theory seems far more likely, does anybody  think that the Collectors somehow decided to build a human reaper to rebel against all the other ones? Harbinger's presence (assuming its a reaper) deosn't make a whole lot of sense in this kind of position, but its just a thought

Although I like this, it seems pretty obvious that the Collectors are to Protheans as Husks are to Humans. Mindless drones, tools of the Reapers. That being said, I felt strangely sad when Harbinger released control of the general, only for him to see his impending death. Perhaps he still had some semblence of mind - the last Prothean, aware of his races' last moment.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Well, it should be pointed out that the Prothean's meddling messed with the Reapers' usual plans. If the Conduit hadn't been created and the Keepers not been modified, the Reapers' would have already been a couple of years into their genocide.

So they're improvising a bit I think.

 My thoughts exactly!

Modifié par Berkilak, 29 août 2010 - 12:38 .

[ExtremeOne]

Raizo wrote...

Overall, most of ME2's plot was very pointless at the end of the day.Why were the Collectors kidnapping humans? Because they were/are the reapers slaves and they were 'collecting' humans to use a raw genetic material to build a 'Human Reaper'. Why build a 'Human Reaper'? We're never really told why although the game does hint that the the Reapers have taken an interest in humanity ever since Shepard played a part in Soverign's defeat, they are apparently impressed with how genetcally diverse the human race is in comparrion to all the other aliens out there.
Still a stupid plot if you ask me.

  


thats exactly how i feel about the plot for ME 2. its filled with story plot holes and un explained things

[Berkilak]

I don't think there are much for plot holes, but yes, there is much that need to be explained. I think the very concept of the game force BioWare into a corner - there is essentially one plot point, that being the suicide mission. It is difficult to be expansive when you need to lay out the entire plot of the game within the first half-hour. There were a few great character moments in the loyalty missions, a few of which were a great setup for ME3, but the suicide mission concept demanded a game that almost entirely consisted of side missions. And while I missed the grand, progressive narrative that ME and many other forms of literature have, the microplots were great. Anyway, getting off-topic.



Mass Effect 2 would really have to be twice the size or more if BioWare were to answer the unexplored questions that the game raised.

[heretica]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Well, it should be pointed out that the Prothean's meddling messed with the Reapers' usual plans. If the Conduit hadn't been created and the Keepers not been modified, the Reapers' would have already been a couple of years into their genocide.

So they're improvising a bit I think.

mmm this makes sense :-m

[upsettingshorts]

Those aren't plot holes. They're unanswered questions.

The definition of plot is, more or less, "what happens." Not every movie has a lot of plot to it, and it doesn't necessarily have to. That's why you hear phrases like "character driven" or "plot driven" - what happens isn't always what makes a story good per se. But when people say plot, they really mean story - which encompasses a lot of things including plot, characters, tension, themes, pace...

If I had to define what a plot hole is, I'd say it is "an unrecognized contradiction in the narrative." A great example is in the RedLetterMedia (famous for the SW Prequel Youtube reviews) review of Star Trek: Generations. Picard is in the Nexus and is told by Guinan he can leave it to return to the real world at any place and any time. Instead of returning to when the villain is standing in Ten-Forward and he could easily capture him by bringing along Worf and another security officer, he decides to return to the climactic fight scene to give the writers - who admit they wrote a ****ty script on the DVD commentary (they, including future BSG creator Ronald D Moore, say they did a much better job on All Good Things...) - an excuse to pull Kirk into the climax.

Granted, often plot holes are recognized but usually a writer will cover them up or fix them using narrative devices like flashbacks, narration, exposition, or when they're feeling particularly lazy - one liners that dismiss the problem that don't hold up under scrutiny.  Mass Effect 2 employs all of these, but it's incredibly difficult to construct a vast, comprehensive story over the course of real life years and not have issues with continuity.  The easiest plot hole to spot?  The new ammo system being used by firearms dropped during Jacob's Loyaly mission.  In fact, the gameplay changes from ME-2 with the exception of getting rid of the MAKO can all be defined as "plot holes" that all had to be explained using exposition.

Mass Effect 2 strikes me as very character driven. For one, your primary goal is recruiting and ensuring the loyalty of your team. By definition that makes it character driven, as during the bulk of the story missions you are either there to find a particular person or to help them. The plot isn't driving you there. The plot only drives us a few times after the initial acquisition of the Normandy - Horizon, the disabled Collector ship, the Reaper IFF, and the Omega 4 relay.

So while I'm not disputing anyone's right to dislike the story, criticizing it for its weak plot ignores the fact its character driven.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 29 août 2010 - 01:08 .

[MisterDyslexo]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Well, it should be pointed out that the Prothean's meddling messed with the Reapers' usual plans. If the Conduit hadn't been created and the Keepers not been modified, the Reapers' would have already been a couple of years into their genocide.

So they're improvising a bit I think.

Makes sense. If this were so, it means they wouldn't have a plan B, no second Citadel Relay. I kinda doubt that, but Soverign was pretty confident that absolutly nothing could stop him

[upsettingshorts]

I think they likely were confident. Sovereign states that the cycle has been repeated longer than we could possibly fathom. Even if it's only as long as a million years, that's 20 different times they've pulled it off successfully. I don't see how they wouldn't be confident.

Maybe the earliest cycles involved difficulty, maybe it took them a few tries to truly perfect their galactic genocide. But I got the impression that it's pretty much like clockwork for them at this point and the protagonists got incredibly lucky that the Protheans were able to leave a glimmer of hope.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 29 août 2010 - 01:10 .

[Tinywolf]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Well, it should be pointed out that the Prothean's meddling messed with the Reapers' usual plans. If the Conduit hadn't been created and the Keepers not been modified, the Reapers' would have already been a couple of years into their genocide.

So they're improvising a bit I think.

Makes sense. If this were so, it means they wouldn't have a plan B, no second Citadel Relay. I kinda doubt that, but Soverign was pretty confident that absolutly nothing could stop him

actually if the protheans havnt finished the conduit, the reapers would have never arrived, considering that their used it to great their saren on board, makes me wonder how their did it beforehand

[Berkilak]

They could activate it remotely before. After the Protheans completed the conduit and sabotaged the keepers, Sovereign needed to gain manual control with a physical link to the Citadel in order to override the relay controls.



Before, they just needed to get into communication range.

[upsettingshorts]

Berkilak covered it.



Before the Reaper invasion, the Conduit was simply part of a Prothean experiment to reverse-engineer mass relay technology.



What the Protheans succeeded in doing was modifying the Keepers so that they wouldn't simply open the floodgates of Armageddon when told to. Sovereign discovered this, then eventually acquired Saren so that the latter could find and use the Conduit to manually open the door, so to speak.



The Conduit was never intended to help the Reapers bring about the invasion, it simply served as a convenient Plan-B.

[Berkilak]

Which is why Saren was also looking for the beacons - he and the Reapers were just as unaware as to the location of the Conduit as the rest of the world.

[smudboy]

Purpose? To destroy the Mass Effect universe's believability, coherency, and usher in a new age of retards.