28 réponses à ce sujet

[Genisys]

Which is more important to you, AS A PLAYER...

To experience a good fantasy while playing...

or

To play in a world where everything is as close to reality as possible?

& 

Which type of world / module do you prefer to play in most..

One that stresses fantasy..

or

One that stresses reality?

Modifié par Genisys, 28 août 2010 - 11:53 .

[Bubba McThudd]

When you say "reality" are you talking about historical or no/low-magic campaigns?

[Genisys]

Reality meaning Real Life Like Problems & Realities

[Urk]

My take is that D&D is all about fantasy. The d20 system doesn't lend itself to "realism". In terms of life like problems and realities I tend to use them as a plot device. At low level I write in mundane plot elements, but as the players mature and the campaign develops those worldly considerations wane in favor of more epic concerns.

I actually use Jeff V's resting system, which is supply based. BUT...I modified the script to remove the food and water requirements.

Until the game reached a desert. Suddenly the players were horrified to find that the food and water requirements were back in force because the need for water had become a relevant plot element. :innocent:

Modifié par Urk, 29 août 2010 - 04:57 .

[Sharona Curves]

The last thing I want while relaxing and trying to enjoy some entertainment is the curse of reality. 

If I wanted to pretend I had a job mining/smelting/wood chopping, or I wanted to pretend I needed a bedroll to get a comfortable nights rest, pretend I need to find food in order to survive, or any of that other "reality" stuff I'd shut down the game, open up the front door and step outside and realize I am not some 3 foot bearded dwarf babe in a chainmail bikini slinging a blood-soaked battleaxe.

[Bubba McThudd]

I would say both are important. A module needs to have a certain amount of the fantastic as the genre requires, but that need not be at the expense of "realism" in that sense. A literary example would be The Lord of the Ring; wizards, dragons, elves - all the high fantasy elements are there, but it is Tolkien's mind-bending attention to the "Real Life Like Problems & Realities" (history, genealogy, language, culture) that make the book so vivid and engrossing.



As far as RPSs go, I prefer "Low Fantasy" to "High Fantasy." Tolkien's Middle Earth is what I consider Low Fantasy - wizards are few and far between, magic items are rare wonders, elves are rarely seen by mortals and everyday life in your average human town is recognizably Medieval. Faerun, in contrast, is High Fantasy - you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a spell-caster, magic items are common consumer goods, magical races can be found in your local tavern and many towns are a mish-mash of medieval and early modern, with magic standing in for technology.

[Lightfoot8]

I think a better question is what is to realistic.   the Original question her came from a topic on OOA's.

It looks to me like the OP is trying to get people to say that the AOO's  are too realistic for the game without out ever bring up his hidden aganda.

Previous topic:
AOO for drinking potions

[Urk]

I agree about the preference for low fantasy. My campaign setting is Greyhawk, and we're shooting for a 1st edition feel. Back in those days it was assumed that 99.9% of the population was just plain folks, without the aptitude to gain even a single level in any class. In the books they called these guys 0 level characters (we endearingly referred to these characters as "feudal losers") and they comprised the backbone of the entire culture. Even the armies were composed of 0 level men-at-arms. This allowed for a much more low magic, low treasure setting.

[Genisys]

Sharona Curves wrote...

The last thing I want while relaxing and trying to enjoy some entertainment is the curse of reality. 

If I wanted to pretend I had a job mining/smelting/wood chopping, or I wanted to pretend I needed a bedroll to get a comfortable nights rest, pretend I need to find food in order to survive, or any of that other "reality" stuff I'd shut down the game, open up the front door and step outside and realize I am not some 3 foot bearded dwarf babe in a chainmail bikini slinging a blood-soaked battleaxe.

Now this....

Is rather amusing, lol...

And the Chainmail Bikini, woooh !  

Modifié par Genisys, 29 août 2010 - 05:05 .

[Seagloom]

Somewhere in the middle. I like it when a module confronts the realities of certain subjects in a thought provoking way. I don't mind the occasional romp where social issues are glossed over and things like war are glorified, but my preference is to see these myriad subjects tackled directly. The problem arises when they bog down the fun too much. No matter how gritty or realistic a module is, it needs to retain fantastic elements. I need to see situations that couldn't possibly occur in real life too. I need to experience a sense of wonder and excitement. I want to feel like my character can be heroic and change people's lives. If I'm reduced to the role of passive observer to cruelties it becomes depressing rather than thought provoking, and I quickly lose interest.

[ffbj]

I am sort of a middle of the roader too. I have a fatigue system, a rest system, non-suicidal creatures, stuff like campfires where you regain hits, and your own hovel where you can relax, resets your rest. But then no annoying stuff like bedrolls, food, water. The assumption is that you just have that stuff. You are not really sleeping anyway when you rest you just sit down for 30 seconds and you are all better. Point being one can go overboard on the reality kick.



As far as the AOO question, well you pull out a potion and drink it, don't whine if something wacks you a good one. I got rid of healing kits and made my own which you can't use in combat. Sir Elric's stop swap is a good way to get a bit more realism into combat, which has been my main focus. Many people who have played in my campaign world have commented that the combat is the most realistic they have encountered within this game system.

[TSMDude]

Seagloom wrote...

Somewhere in the middle. I like it when a module confronts the realities of certain subjects in a thought provoking way. I don't mind the occasional romp where social issues are glossed over and things like war are glorified, but my preference is to see these myriad subjects tackled directly. The problem arises when they bog down the fun too much. No matter how gritty or realistic a module is, it needs to retain fantastic elements. I need to see situations that couldn't possibly occur in real life too. I need to experience a sense of wonder and excitement. I want to feel like my character can be heroic and change people's lives. If I'm reduced to the role of passive observer to cruelties it becomes depressing rather than thought provoking, and I quickly lose interest.

Best answer imho.

[Genisys]

Fantasy vs Reality...

You said it all with good tact Seagloom, thanks for sharing your thoughts on the subject of the thread with us all.. Well put, indeed...

I like to hear a player's perspective on this subject, as this help not only myself, but other builders see what the players want, for ultimately, the player is what matters, not the builder / artist / designer...

For if we build / design a module & it doesn't appeal to enough players, then what do we have?

A travesty, for building takes a hell of a lot of work to accomplish even a remotely decent module...

I don't want to waste my time on projects that fail to meet the player's interest, understanding the audience we are building for, will help all of us builders to become a better builder, and that's the bottom line. I started this post to enlighten myself and other builders to the effects of reality and the hope that they will see the importance of fantasy vs reality.. For reality CAN rob a fantasy and fast..

Thanks for any feedback you may provide, I'm trying to remain open minded in this discussion..

Modifié par Genisys, 29 août 2010 - 04:41 .

[avado]

The best mod/pw i ever played on was a quaint little place called Calmwind (long long ago extinct). IT had nice tough areas and alot of thought to it. It was, unfortunately, never finished (meaning +30 areas were rare) but it had a crafting system (read: JOB). The ONLY way we had to get prema-haste items was from one of the crafting jobs. And believe it or not, it was "fun" to get it.



As for "real life", its a GAME! I dont know how many of us on the forum wake up each day and go kill goblins, bugbears, or heaven for bid, slay a dragon or 2. Many of us dont have full plate, a battle axe, or have ever seen a Heal potion, and dont get me started on spells! LOL I cant imagine a pw could survive if it was "close to reality".. oh wait, isnt that what the SIMS are? LOL

[Genisys]

That's a great way to put it avado, the sims are based upon reality, like reality shows on TV, where D&D / NWN is (should be or could be?) more about fantasy... after all, what fun is it when you cast a spell only to learn you forgot to get the proper spell components to cast it when your in a death match vs a powerful Lich! EEEK!

I've always considered spell components too taxing to Implement, even if you did it perfect or correct, you'd only slow game-play for a mage down to a crawl, as if buffing isn't boring enough...

Hence the idea of the Fast Buffing Rod was created, to eliminate the boredom of pressing the F series of keys in succession and wasting 2+ minutes / rest looking at yourself buff up, not to mention your holding other players up as well, then only to be horribly dispelled by the Own-age Monster of Doom..

Anything that enhances / improves game play or makes it smoother is definitely a ++ in my book, however anything that hampers / reduces game play is a -- in my book, and that's really my whole point in this discussion, for improving game-play for all will further to enhance the game for many!

If we stay in fantasy, where anything is possible, couldn't you come up with a reason NOT to use reality in MOST cases? I mean, after all, the magical array of armament or clothing could literally sustain the wearer indefinitely, and by different means too..

Were Elf's originally not required to rest?

Do you see where I'm going here?  (The Never-ending Story..) 

Modifié par Genisys, 29 août 2010 - 04:59 .

[ehye_khandee]

Yes, the OP is trying to carry over from the AOO post. *sigh*

ROLE play involves a ROLE. If I'm playing a human warrior, I should expect to have that human experience some human things, like hunger, thirst, fatigue, and act accordingly (ROLE PLAY). Dwarves elves and the lot are similar to humans too in these regards, tho the dwarves can slam down more booze and the elves prefer wine in moderation.

Fantasy? You act like elves, dragons and magic spells are not 'fantasy enough' for you, I think.

I do not treat PCs as indefatigable automatons. In my PW, all PCs hunger, thirst and fatigue (with a system that causes NO lag and runs just fine) - rest is not just for wizards anymore. Monsters often view PCs as FOOD items. Some monsters lurk near water holes to pounce on the unwary. These things can help PLAYERS to Role Play, giving them cues about the PC's condition and keeping the mechanical details out of the way. Simply put, if your PC's gear-weight to STR ratio is low, you'll fatigue faster, if you are in a hot place you H/T/F faster, if you run your PC will H/T/F faster. This is realism that HELPS THE FANTASY ALONG. Remember even JRRT had his characters seek out safe places to rest, and eat often too. This is PART of the setting, you need gear or you will suffer (gear as in food/drink and maybe a bedroll). Bedrolls and tents make resting more refreshing, tents protect from weather better than bedrolls, but some classes (rugged classes like monk, fighter, barbarian, druid, etc.) rest without any gear needed. Other types need gear or a restful place. Again, this is realism that promotes fantasy; we are not playing superman with elf ears after all (at least not on my server).

The long and the short of it is, whatever systems you choose to use, make sure they help promote immersion, not bog down the game. Systems like those I've evolved do this in a stellar way, no PLAYER BOOKKEEPING to look after, all automated, with appropriate on screen cues about the PC's condition. Food and drink can be had by scavenging in many cases, less likely in some environments like deserts or badlands. More, water and food can be poison, even disease vectors, so think twice before you steal the dead goblin's backpack full of 'meat'.

Fantasy and realism need not be mutually exclusive. A dose of realism can actually help immersion and therefore the fantasy.

This is not day/night opposites, but complementary things. After all, when you strike an opponent with a sword you expect them to (realistically) take damage, so why stop there? Especially if adding realism can (and it does in the right measure and with clean code) help sustain 'suspension of disbelief' and therefor supports the fantasy.

Modifié par ehye_khandee, 29 août 2010 - 05:02 .

[ffbj]

Yeah pretty much have to go with EK on this, though for my tastes his world is a bit too much on the realism side. Though I think coming out of the sewers stinking to high heaven is a nice touch, but maybe that was the Silver Marches. It does add more subtlety to the game though, this realism stuff. Actually even with a lot of realism the game premise is still quite fantastic.



I will say that you can go overboard, as with one player I had who quit playing after some time. His complaint was that he wanted to relax and that coming into my world was not realxing in that he had to stay on his toes all the time. Too much tension for him after a tense pressure packed day at work.

[tmanfoo]

Fantasy is great, but not when it's completely over the top. If something is extremely unbelievable, it can quickly detract from the game. Some things just have to be justified in some logical manner so we can relate to the possibility, and in turn believe it.



I like some level of realism, but not to the degree that after 4972 steps within a 12 hour period, I have to stop and take a rest in some out of the way place as to not get eaten by a slightly rabid squirrel. Getting thirsty is fine, if I have a canteen of some sort. Having to boil the water to purge any parasites is not. Hello, magic anyone, c’mon now. Requiring both of these in order to rest is lot of work, especially when they need to be obtained somewhere within the 4972 steps.



Anyways, somewhere near the middle of the road for me as well.

[Darkfire_Avlis]

I like a fantasy setting that follows a set of rules. Those rules are to be determined, but I am a major fan of continuity and fantasy, in my opinion, is not an excuse to disregard such a thing.

[Bubba McThudd]

An example of realism that I think enhances immersion is the recoverable missile ammo system I use in my mod. I alway disliked the fact that arrows and bolts were sold in bundles of 99 and had no weight. A PC can literally carry thousands of arrows and run around unimpeded!

In my mod, ammo has weight and stacks at 24 for arrows, bolts and bullets, 6 for throwing and axes. When you shoot at a monster and miss, the ammo is lost. If you hit, the ammo is added to the monster's droppable inventory so you can recover the ammo when you loot the corpse.

What this means in practical terms is that archer PCs can purchase high quality arrows sooner (as you don't have to save up for 99) and you can keep using them if you are accurate.

The system can surprise you too; I threw an axe at an orc across a chasm and hit him. The axe entered his inventory as programmed - and the bastard threw it right back!

[TSMDude]

ffbj wrote...
Though I think coming out of the sewers stinking to high heaven is a nice touch, but maybe that was the Silver Marches. It does add more subtlety to the game though, this realism stuff. Actually even with a lot of realism the game premise is still quite fantastic.

(That was us and in our defense you did step in poo....)

[ehye_khandee]

ffbj wrote...

Nice to see 

Yeah pretty much have to go with EK on this, ...  I think coming out of the sewers stinking to high heaven is a nice touch....

Yeah, that was ArgentumRegio, we track dirty, stinky and more and the NPCs react to them too.

Nice to see other servers have also picked up on this notion - use the PC's senses and you immerse them all the more!

Modifié par ehye_khandee, 29 août 2010 - 07:54 .

[TSMDude]

Nice...we use alot of that stuff ourselves.

[MingWolf]

I prefer a realistic fantasy. Not too much fluff but grounded enough where I can feel my character in his or her shoes and "escape". Of course, for a game, I don't want to go too real where I'm actually doing the same chores of day to day life.

[Jenna WSI]

Sharona Curves wrote...

The last thing I want while relaxing and trying to enjoy some entertainment is the curse of reality. 

If I wanted to pretend I had a job mining/smelting/wood chopping, or I wanted to pretend I needed a bedroll to get a comfortable nights rest, pretend I need to find food in order to survive, or any of that other "reality" stuff I'd shut down the game, open up the front door and step outside and realize I am not some 3 foot bearded dwarf babe in a chainmail bikini slinging a blood-soaked battleaxe.

Pretty much said it for me.