34 réponses à ce sujet

[Kristofer Wolf]

Just as the title says?  Did you leave her in her current "holy" path or did you harden her to return to her bardly ways?

I'm a bit torn on what to do

Modifié par Kristofer Wolf, 29 août 2010 - 05:02 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

The way I saw hardening her, it didn't fully return her to her bardly ways. Rather, it made her partially return, while still preserving her religious beliefs. I saw it as a happy medium.

[Giggles_Manically]

Its a little more nuanced than that.

Not Hardening her means that she gives up her old life, and tries to become the Lay Sister and nice person she hid behind in the chantry. It also reinforces her faith and maker.



Hardening her means that you tell her to accept that she is a bard, and cant avoid the fact. Pretty much you tell her dont try to change who you really are, since you cant stop being you.

[CalJones]

I prefer to harden her as I am not keen on the Chantry. If you're not romancing her, her ending varies: an unhardened Leli goes off to research the Sacred Ashes, while a hardened Leli leads an expedition into the Deep Roads to find out more about the darkspawn. I prefer the latter.

[wickedgoodreed]

I see not hardening her as telling her that she should believe in herself and that she has the power to choose what she becomes. Even when I play characters that don't like the Chantry, I don't harden her since, as she says, it's her life that the Maker is guiding not mine, and Leliana seems to appreciate the distinction between her faith and the Chantry's religion.

[Avilia]

I never harden her. After seeing Marjolaine I'm much too sympathetic to Leliana's fears about turning into that herself.

[Kyogen]

I always harden her when I play her now. Unhardened Leliana seems a bit zombie-like in the epilogue, whereas a hardened Leliana seems not only content but happy to be off on her own adventure against the darkspawn--her own bard's tale, so to speak. It's not like a hardened character gives up her faith. She even seems more secure about her own particular take on the Maker.

[Dean_the_Young]

Unhardened Leliana is basically a recent suicide risk who could revert if something bad happens. (Like, say, the Warden romances and dies.) Hardened Leliana is actually a Leliana who's returned to a self-sufficient, stable, non suicidal person who is far better emotionally suited to ending the blight.



Plus, dangerous Leliana is a enticing Leliana.

[Wedger]

seems like it only effects what she wears at the ending



not into that

[Lenimph]

Nope I like her soft and squishy :3

[EccentricSage]

Well, my male Dalish accidentally hardened her. It was really annoying. She pretty much goes all 'I'm upset and confused, who should I be?'. My rather frustrated Dalish, who was sick of her lies and self righteous BS, told her something about how she should stop running away from who she was, and she goes all 'OMG, you are right! The Maker made bad things in the world, too, so it must be ok to do really bad things!' Or at least that is how I took it. At that point my Dalish just kind of threw his hands up in the air and walked away. e__e



Now Lel is trying to romance my fem Mage. *sigh* Run away, Vaalen, run away! she's more than just someone who tells booring stories and tells you you're wrong when you tell her you met the person from one of them! XD That was a very special conversation. I don't know why Lel even has it for my mage, as they don't tend to see eye to eye and their conversations are so forced and awkward.

[Giggles_Manically]

So Leliana is a suicide risk because she allegedly does it, if the one person she loves is killed?

That makes most people a suicide risk then, because I doubt many people would take the loss of a loved one well (Zev and Alistair dont either).



Unhardened Leliana is lost all over again, and has a very human reaction to loss.

Hardened Leliana probably is hit just as bad, but knows the Warden would want her to move on.

[Myusha]

Hardened Leliana. Every. Single. Time.

You can fight who you are, run away from who you are, or accept who you are.

Fighting against your past is difficult, and may not be worth it.

She doesn't want to run anymore.

And if she accepts it, she fuses her new personality and old, into a nice fun mix, where she can enjoy both sides of the world, rather than just the bright side. I mean, you saw how alive and how she had fun in Leliana's Song didn't you? And you saw how she seemed happy with the Chantry. Mix those lives together and you get a bowl of happiness!

[Dean_the_Young]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

So Leliana is a suicide risk because she allegedly does it, if the one person she loves is killed?
That makes most people a suicide risk then, because I doubt many people would take the loss of a loved one well (Zev and Alistair dont either).

Unhardened Leliana is lost all over again, and has a very human reaction to loss.
Hardened Leliana probably is hit just as bad, but knows the Warden would want her to move on.

No, unhardened Leliana is a suicide risk because she displays a surprising number of signs of suicidal behavior, which never changes unless you 'harden' her. The epilogue slide just confirms the worst under certain situation. Being in a suicidal state doesn't guarantee suicide, but it's a needless state.

Zev was also a suicide risk: his actual reason to come to Ferelden was suicide by Grey Warden. But Zev  recovers once he actually makes a friend, while Leliana doesn't revert to her normal self unless you harden her.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 30 août 2010 - 12:48 .

[ejoslin]

I harden her. However, unless you use a mod that addresses it (/wave) there's not much difference between hardened and unhardened Leliana. She seems to be more in charge of her destiny if you harden her. She retains her sweetness either way.

[Aeowyn]

Where can I find this mod?

I harden her. Don't think she should run away from who she is, and just because Marjolaine ended up like a paranoid nut house it doesn't mean that Leliana has to end up like that. Plus, she still has her faith so..

[ejoslin]

Look in my signature. It's a huge mod, but you can delete parts you don't want. Zevran Dialog Fix (make sure you choose either the dialog tweaks compatible version or the non if you download the full mod -- for her file -- read the readme regarding that).

Or you can do a search for "Leliana Your Zevran Dialog Fix" which just has the Leliana fix. It got that name because initially that was the only part of Leliana I fixed -- it grew from there. Same thing, though, about Dialog Tweaks compatible. Two directories are in the archive -- both a Dialog Tweaks compatible version and a non -- you need to use only one.

Edit: I recommend using, at the very least, my fixes to Leliana and my fixes to the party banter.  You can also get the party banter fix as a separate download, but that's in the ZDF area as an optional download.  It's also a part of ZDF, however.

Modifié par ejoslin, 30 août 2010 - 01:03 .

[CalJones]

Oh I just checked out the link and the Leliana - Zev banter. LOL!

[Aeowyn]

Oh thanks. I didn't actually realize that there were so many missing Leliana dialogues lol. Will install right away

[wickedgoodreed]

In the hardening conversation she is expressing her fears that:
1) Marjolaine is right and that they are the same.
and
2) She is wrong about her vision and the Maker. She only tells herself that He is there to console herself.

In response you can either:
Reassure her that Marjolaine is wrong. She can choose who she becomes and her faith guides her to be a good person.
or
Confirm her fears that Marjolaine is right; they are alike and being a bard is who she is. Leliana was wrong about the path the Chantry showed her.

I know from metagaming there isn't too much of a difference between hardened and unhardened Leliana...but from a roleplaying perspective, I'm faced with someone I care about having a profound personal crisis, and by choosing to harden her it feels like I'm kicking her while she's down. I'd rather tell her that I believe in her.

When she says she feels herself "slipping" in the hardening conversation, it brings me back to her description of her vision when she says she "fell or maybe jumped" into darkness. I always thought the "or maybe I jumped" part was odd...I'm sure I'm probably reading too much into this, but it's like hardening her is telling her to "embrace the dark side."

Modifié par wickedgoodreed, 30 août 2010 - 02:26 .

[Gilsa]

I always harden because 1) I don't like the hardening system being applied to only two companions and 2) they need to be self-sufficient without the warden. You know the saying about teaching a person to fish versus just handing them a fish.

[MKDAWUSS]

I don't harden either character. TBH I have enough auto-hardened characters in my party.

[sickserb]

i don't harden alistair or leliana. i don't know why i just don't.

[Monica21]

Gilsa wrote...

I always harden because 1) I don't like the hardening system being applied to only two companions and 2) they need to be self-sufficient without the warden. You know the saying about teaching a person to fish versus just handing them a fish.

Hardening Leliana doesn't have anything to do with whether she becomes self-sufficient. She already is. She's just afraid of turning into Marjolaine.

[Sappy69]

I always prefer an unhardened Leliana.  A hardened Leliana accepts her past as a bard and is less likely to stand up for herself and more willing to compromise her principles (accepting the 3-some, willing to let the Urn of Sacred Ashes be defiled, etc.).  An unhardened Leliana doesn't put up with that crap and embraces the fact that she can change to be a better person and determine a new path in life.

This is reinforced after playing through Leliana's Song and/or doing Leliana's personal quest.  Leliana's primary struggle is her fear of turning into Marjolaine, her archenemy and the one who betrays her.  Remember how Marjolaine taunts Leliana: "We are the same, you and I" (sidetrack: Why are French accents so sexy?).  Why does Marjolaine send assassins after Leliana?  Because she believes that if she were in Leliana's shoes, she would definitely try to seek revenge.  The hardening dialogue with Leliana suggests that a hardened Leliana gives in to this fear and validates Marjolaine's belief, while an unhardened Leliana is able to determine her own path in life.

Just for the record, I prefer a hardened Alistair, who is more willing to stand up for himself and less willing to be led around by the nose.  I quite enjoy the fact that this "hardening" process for characters can vary individually and determined by how you prefer such characters to evolve.