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Samara's LoyaltyMission


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#26
didymos1120

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Esbatty wrote...

So far I've never sided with Morinth but I just might once just to bring her along on Grunt's loyalty mission to see her break her Samara impression and see Grunt freak out.


He doesn't freak out.  It's a damn funny line though.  It's also, BTW, a remnant of Morinth being known as herself to the other squadmates.  There's bits and pieces of dialogue where she's referred to by name by the other squaddies.  Almost entirely in the combat soundsets, but a few other lines exist.  That one just got left in, likely by mistake.

Modifié par didymos1120, 30 août 2010 - 06:17 .


#27
ExtremeOne

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I did it once to get her power unlocked then I started helping Samara again

#28
JohnnyBeGood2

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NanQuan wrote...

I'm one of the people that actually really likes Samara and I can't bring myself to ever betray her. I've thought about just seeing and then reloading, but I never can make myself do it.


yes

#29
Christmas Ape

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Morinth is more or less exactly the sort of person you would expect a Spectre to be employed to track down and kill, save that she's smart enough to operate outside Council space. I'm just doing my job.

She lived long enough to grant me a bonus power.

#30
Lewie

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Captain Hex wrote...

louise101 wrote...

So far iv always helped samara, morinth should die i never questioned it.


I've actually felt too sorry for Morinth to kill her a couple of times with my Paragon Shepard. My Shepard thought it wasn't fair that she was being hunted and killed for the genes her mother gave her. She couldn't help what she was any more than the rachni could. The notion she is a dangerous menace to the galaxy and therefor deserves to be put down would put Shep on the same level as the salarians and turians when they unleashed the genophage on the krogan. So ParaShep has occassionally aided Morinth. Renegade Shep always just blasts her head off for trying to brainhump her.


Morinth never showed any remorse she knew exactly what she was doing to people, like samara said it was like a drug for her she feeds of people like a leech. If she was rubbing her hands in glee before wanting to mash your brains out i doubt you would feel pity lol. How many people must she have killed over 400 years, fair enough she couldn't choose her genes but surely she also had a choice she should have lived in seclusion. Iv no pity for her at all. The 2 sides are leave her to annihilate whoever she wants or kill her and save many lives. I always killed her so didn't get that bonus power ill have to side with her once :D.

#31
numotsbane

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I really wish they hadn't dressed Morinth up to be as evil, and Samara to be as 'pure'. I wanted it to be a bit more of a dilemma; not just a choice between the right thing and the patently ridiculously evil thing.

#32
Lewie

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numotsbane wrote...

I really wish they hadn't dressed Morinth up to be as evil, and Samara to be as 'pure'. I wanted it to be a bit more of a dilemma; not just a choice between the right thing and the patently ridiculously evil thing.


Yeah its just one of many plotlines that have no lee-way. Although saying samara is pure, blooded yes maybe, but they should have also let you know samara after her 'connection' or whatever, to the code. They also should have gave morinth a concience lol.

#33
upsettingshorts

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Eh, I think a lot of the decisions available to Shepard are quite ambiguous, in their own way.



I'm also not sure how Bioware could have written Morinth to make her more sympathetic without significantly hampering the concept of the Ardat-Yakshi.



One more thing though: In terms of criminal record, is Morinth all that much different from Jack, someone we willingly take on our crew without much hesitation? Maybe the answer to making the Morinth v. Samara choice harder would be to sell the player on the former being much more powerful than her mother, making it a risk/reward choice as opposed to trying to make it more morally ambiguous by softening Morinth's character.

#34
Guest_yorkj86_*

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Morinth was much younger than her mother, but could stand up to her in a biotic duel. Her mother had Justicar training, which includes substantial biotics training.  Had Morinth gone on killing, she likely could have become more powerful than her mother. Of course, Shepard would have permitted a killer to go on killing thousands, as the strength-gain Morinth gets from each brain-frying decreases each time she melds. That would be one thing for Shepard to consider in his moral deliberations.

Modifié par yorkj86, 30 août 2010 - 12:50 .


#35
Lewie

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

Eh, I think a lot of the decisions available to Shepard are quite ambiguous, in their own way.

I'm also not sure how Bioware could have written Morinth to make her more sympathetic without significantly hampering the concept of the Ardat-Yakshi.

One more thing though: In terms of criminal record, is Morinth all that much different from Jack, someone we willingly take on our crew without much hesitation? Maybe the answer to making the Morinth v. Samara choice harder would be to sell the player on the former being much more powerful than her mother, making it a risk/reward choice as opposed to trying to make it more morally ambiguous by softening Morinth's character.


From my playthrough i didn't see samara as being all good and pure though. The 'Ardat-Yakshi' did portray what morinth was, as being wrong, add to that Morinth seemed to enjoy what she was doing its just hard to be sympathetic to a killer on that level. If you compare her to Jack their pasts are completely different, Morinth's was gene based and Jack was conditioning in a bad way. Jack questions herself on whether to pull the trigger, just before the bomb is planted in Pragia, its shep who finally decides what Jack does but it showed that Jack feels she has a choice. When Jack said 'Is this right, will this fix my head', that shows a major vulnerability in Jack. Theres a big gap between conditioning and what someone is born with but their lives are two flip sides of a coin even though they both kill.

#36
Arcadionn

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Samara is not - imo - pure and good.



She is "Lawful Neutral" or something but to an obsessive level.

She will punish equally a junkie, a thief and a murderer. She will kill cops/civilians whom stand in her way (even if unbeknownst to them or if they are just doing their duty). She will likely come back later and fight Shepard (in her own words) if Shep does a single renegade action that is reprehensible to her code... if you take a look closely at what the ramifications of her title are... she isn't that much rainbows and butterflies either... Morinth is just more liberal with how and who she kills ;)



It all comes down to; when she melds with you (if you let it happen of course) is she aware she'll fry your nervous system, or does she truly believe you could be the one to survive?

#37
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Samara is a walking example of the inadequacy of the Paragon/Renegade system.   It lacks nuance.  I thought tthe writers were trying to get across to the player that there exist areas of gray morality in the universe, and Samara serves a system that does not accept that fact.  The writing felt restricted, though, because the Paragon/Renegade system lacks nuance.  In this respect, it almost feels as if the writers were trying to break the Fourth Wall.  The messages behind Samara/Morinth storyline just can't be properly addressed by Righteous/Reckless.

As for whether or not Morinth thinks Shepard could survive the melding, I think the grin of sadistic glee she shows when Shepard accepts is all the proof I need.

#38
Killjoy Cutter

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Captain Hex wrote...

louise101 wrote...

So far iv always helped samara, morinth should die i never questioned it.


I've actually felt too sorry for Morinth to kill her a couple of times with my Paragon Shepard. My Shepard thought it wasn't fair that she was being hunted and killed for the genes her mother gave her. She couldn't help what she was any more than the rachni could. The notion she is a dangerous menace to the galaxy and therefor deserves to be put down would put Shep on the same level as the salarians and turians when they unleashed the genophage on the krogan. So ParaShep has occassionally aided Morinth. Renegade Shep always just blasts her head off for trying to brainhump her.


Morinth couldn't help having the Ardat Yakshi condition, but she could have avoided being a monster and predatory serial killer.   Samara's other two daughters resisted the urge and took the secluded option, and are reportedly very well provided for by Asari society. 

#39
Killjoy Cutter

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

Eh, I think a lot of the decisions available to Shepard are quite ambiguous, in their own way.

I'm also not sure how Bioware could have written Morinth to make her more sympathetic without significantly hampering the concept of the Ardat-Yakshi.


Not much.  Perhaps make the need to kill a matter of survival for her, as opposed to sick choice.

#40
Arcadionn

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yorkj86 wrote...

Samara is a walking example of the inadequacy of the Paragon/Renegade system.   It lacks nuance.  I thought tthe writers were trying to get across to the player that there exist areas of gray morality in the universe, and Samara serves a system that does not accept that fact.  The writing felt restricted, though, because the Paragon/Renegade system lacks nuance.  In this respect, it almost feels as if the writers were trying to break the Fourth Wall.  The messages behind Samara/Morinth storyline just can't be properly addressed by Righteous/Reckless.

As for whether or not Morinth thinks Shepard could survive the melding, I think the grin of sadistic glee she shows when Shepard accepts is all the proof I need.


I agree completely with the morality system needing more depth and flexibility.

I also recall that grin - now that you mention it... Does kinda hurt her honesty rating lol.

#41
Pacifien

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I'd wondered if the writers had included Morinth as a bit of a sadistic joke. Imagine surviving the suicide mission, she convinces you to the melding, and then you're the ultimage failure.

She does provide a moral quandry in what her life means because she had no choice in being an Ardat-Yakshi. Samara openly admits to this. She mentions the pride she has in her daughter, not willing to accept what cruel fate life had dealt her. It's implied that Samara's other two daughters are forced to live lives in seclusion, away from the temptations that their Ardat-Yakshi status would drive them towards.

That never makes what Morinth does right. By the time you catch up with her, she seems to have fully accepted her lot in life and even embraces it. She is not repentent for what she does at all anymore, assuming she ever was. Offering her seclusion again, however, is not an option. She's proven quite adept at escape and hiding herself. She's run from seclusion before. To get her to stop killing, you have to essentially jail her or kill her.

I think Samara was once a chaotic good, relishing in the wanton freedom of her maiden days, but still reaching a limit in what she found acceptable behavior as witnessed by her turning on her fellow mercs to prevent a slave trade. However, all that changed when she learned of her daughters' fates and Morinth ran. Samara completely blames herself what happened to her daughters and blames herself for each victim of Morinth's. She makes the ultimate sacrifice for an Asari, taking up the Justicar Code, simply to kill Morinth. I expect she believed that it was her duty that she specifically take on Morinth because it was her mistake to correct.

The choice in the end can depend on a few factors. You could very well not agree with Samara's belief that someone must die for a life of killing if that person really couldn't fight the urge. I suppose like the human judicial system that tries a person with mental illness in a different manner as someone who has broken the law with what's deemed a sane mind. But I doubt Shepard is the sort who would allow Morinth to continue on her killing spree, unless your personal Shepard is a bit insane as well. But has Morinth expressed any interest in stopping? All she tells you when you must make the decision is that she's as powerful as her mother and will fight for you.
Another factor I see Renegades consider is that Samara's loyalty only extends as far as the suicide mission. She will tell a Renegade she will turn against them due to the behavior she's witnessed Shepard performing outside of the Code. So be proactive here and replace Samara with someone just as powerful and seemingly more loyal to you personally.

Morinth is the sort of character that I have no regrets in letting die. Shepard doesn't personally kill her, only is an accomplice to the one who does. Though I suppose an accomplice is just as cupable as the one who does the final blow. Anyway, my Shepards will give anyone a second chance if they express remorse for their actions and a plea to allow them to make it better. Morinth doesn't, though.

Modifié par Pacifien, 30 août 2010 - 04:37 .


#42
Thompson family

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Re: OP

No, I've never just let Morinth go or picked her over Samara. Even by the most cold-blooded of calculations, Samara is a Justicar warrior-monk who's sworn an unbreakable oath to follow my orders. Trading that kind of loyalty for a serial killer Shepard's just met is too illogical to consider.

As an earlier post says, why go at all if you're not going to try and complete the mission successfully.

Finally, I want the assualt rifle upgrade in Morinth's apartment.

Modifié par Thompson family, 30 août 2010 - 04:49 .


#43
Bad King

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TheAzureVanguard wrote...

Does anyone choose to let Morinth GO? In other words you speak with her but you don't get her to ask you back to her place?

I did it to see what Samara would say on the ship and I must say i feel pretty awful. She sounds so broken and defeated. I'm not sure if I really want to keep it that way.

A part of me does feel guilty for whomever Morinth goes on to kill.  Plus there's no guarantee that Bioware will make it so that if she does escape and live that she'll be present in some form in Mass Effect 3 or that there will be any "true consequences" in Mass Effect 3.

What do you guys think? Do you ALWAYS help Samara kill Morinth?


I deliberately played an "epic fail" Mass Effect 2 playthrough where I avoided gaining squad loyalty and avoided using charm/intimidate dialogue options and paragon/renegade interrupts (just to see how the game played out if you ignored these options). Basically I deliberately failed hard at the part where you have to impress Morinth at the club (I danced like a moron and left the asari dancer to fend for herself against the creepy Turian guy).

Like you, I felt pretty guilty after talking to Samara on the ship and so I'll avoid doing it again :P

Ussually I take the mission all the way and choose to help either Samara or Morinth depending on my allignment. As for consequences of letting her go, I think it will mean that Samara will be on the hunt for her again in ME3, however it will take years for her to be tracked down again.

#44
NanQuan

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yorkj86 wrote...

Samara is a walking example of the inadequacy of the Paragon/Renegade system.   It lacks nuance.  I thought tthe writers were trying to get across to the player that there exist areas of gray morality in the universe, and Samara serves a system that does not accept that fact.  The writing felt restricted, though, because the Paragon/Renegade system lacks nuance.  In this respect, it almost feels as if the writers were trying to break the Fourth Wall.  The messages behind Samara/Morinth storyline just can't be properly addressed by Righteous/Reckless.

As for whether or not Morinth thinks Shepard could survive the melding, I think the grin of sadistic glee she shows when Shepard accepts is all the proof I need.

I think that Samara's code does highlight some of the moral ambiguity in the paragon/renegade system though. When you talk to her about her code she explains that it's difficult for us to understand because we see the world in shades of grey and the code is black and white. While Samara is suppose to be an example of justice, we can all tell that the code is unmerciful. Paragons are big on mercy and all that jazz, but Samara's code doesn't allow for that. Mistakes are irreversible.

#45
Pacifien

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Thompson family wrote...
Re: OP

No, I've never just let Morinth go or picked her over Samara. Even by the most cold-blooded of calculations, Samara is a Justicar warrior-monk who's sworn an unbreakable oath to follow my orders. Trading that kind of loyalty for a serial killer Shepard's just met is too illogical to consider.

Wait, not even for Dominate?

#46
Bad King

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Thompson family wrote...

Re: OP

No, I've never just let Morinth go or picked her over Samara. Even by the most cold-blooded of calculations, Samara is a Justicar warrior-monk who's sworn an unbreakable oath to follow my orders. Trading that kind of loyalty for a serial killer Shepard's just met is too illogical to consider.

As an earlier post says, why go at all if you're not going to try and complete the mission successfully.

Finally, I want the assualt rifle upgrade in Morinth's apartment.


I choose Morinth if I'm playing as a super evil renegade. She's got the potential to be more powerful than Samara- even though Samara ambushes her (and gains the element of surprise), she manages to fight her off despite being hundreds of years less experienced. Plus her ardat-yakshi abilities mean that she gets stronger with every victim making her a valuable ally to renegade Shepard (provided you don't try and romance her!).

Also Samara says that should she cross paths with renegade Shepard after the mission is over, her code will obligate her to attempt to kill Shepard making her a possible hinderance in the future.

Modifié par Bad King, 30 août 2010 - 05:03 .


#47
Thompson family

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Pacifien wrote...

Thompson family wrote...
Re: OP

No, I've never just let Morinth go or picked her over Samara. Even by the most cold-blooded of calculations, Samara is a Justicar warrior-monk who's sworn an unbreakable oath to follow my orders. Trading that kind of loyalty for a serial killer Shepard's just met is too illogical to consider.

Wait, not even for Dominate?


Nope. Not even for Dominate.

Besides, you have to "feed" an A-Y. Bring her aboard and Yeoman Chambers is a dead woman. ;)

#48
Thompson family

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Bad King wrote...



... She's got the potential to be more powerful than Samara- even though Samara ambushes her (and gains the element of surprise), she manages to fight her off despite being hundreds of years less experienced. Plus her ardat-yakshi abilities mean that she gets stronger with every victim making her a valuable ally to renegade Shepard (provided you don't try and romance her!).

Also Samara says that should she cross paths with renegade Shepard after the mission is over, her code will obligate her to attempt to kill Shepard making her a possible hinderance in the future.


Fair enough, but Samara says her code will obligate her to kill Shepard only if he orders her to do something "extremely dishonorable" -- which a super-renegade will probably do.

#49
Hex of Hell

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louise101 wrote...
The 2 sides are leave her to annihilate whoever she wants or kill her and save many lives. I always killed her so didn't get that bonus power ill have to side with her once :D.


That's not quite true. that would be letting her go or killing her. My paragon Sheps have done neither. They take her with them where she is not free to kill anyone she likes. She is taken with the knowledge that this is a suicide mission. She will most likely die. Essentially, it is offering Morinth the opportunity to do some good to make up for all that she has done as a result of her genes, and make a choice to save more lives than she ever could have ended. And it offers her the means to an honourable death, rather than an extermination. My ParaSheps just tend to believe that everyone should get the chance to redeem themselves. As an earthborn, Shepard ran in gangs and did horrible things growing up, before the Alliance gave her the chance to do something that meant something. And she offers Morinth that same opportunity. Again, she has no real belief that any of them will survive this mission. She's offering them all an honourable death.

#50
tonnactus

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louise101 wrote...
 How many people must she have killed over 400 years, fair enough she couldn't choose her genes but surely she also had a choice she should have lived in seclusion.


Dead or prison is a choice like pest or cholera.

Modifié par tonnactus, 30 août 2010 - 07:21 .