2001 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

shootist70 wrote...

Considering that homosexuality is probably as old as humanity itself, why shouldn't it be represented in exactly the same fictive ways? What reason is there to exclude them from that sort of universally accepted enjoyment?

Discomfort and intolerance.

[Chris Readman]

Arrtis wrote...

Leliana did not hit on me.
I totally hit on her!
Same with morrigan.
And alistair.
Zevran was the only one to hit on me first.

Oh by the way, are you kidding? Morrigan totally hit on me even though I was trying to approach the relationship platonically. It was like "Tis cold in my tent" or something along those lines all of a sudden and out of nowhere.

[Arrtis]

Come on people stay on topic were talking about male on male romance.

Russ thats my point we do not need another zevran.We should be the ones to hit on them first this time if only for something different.

[Arrtis]

Chris Readman wrote...

Arrtis wrote...

Leliana did not hit on me.
I totally hit on her!
Same with morrigan.
And alistair.
Zevran was the only one to hit on me first.

Oh by the way, are you kidding? Morrigan totally hit on me even though I was trying to approach the relationship platonically. It was like "Tis cold in my tent" or something along those lines all of a sudden and out of nowhere.

I kid you not I tottaly pushed morrigan into romance!
Again the only romance I could not do that was with zevran.

Modifié par Arrtis, 31 août 2010 - 12:52 .

[Chris Readman]

Arrtis wrote...

Chris Readman wrote...

Arrtis wrote...

Leliana did not hit on me.
I totally hit on her!
Same with morrigan.
And alistair.
Zevran was the only one to hit on me first.

Oh by the way, are you kidding? Morrigan totally hit on me even though I was trying to approach the relationship platonically. It was like "Tis cold in my tent" or something along those lines all of a sudden and out of nowhere.

I kid you not I tottaly pushed morrigan into romance!
Again the only romance I could not do that was with zevran.

Ah, I guess my problem is that for some reason, I couldn't pursue a friendship with Morrigan as a male without her assuming that I was trying to get into her pants.

I do get where you're coming from with Zevran though, he came across as really sleazy. But I don't think some LIGHT flirting will be that horrible; if someone's character turned out straight, then perhaps it can be disguised as some form of brotherly teasing.

[Arrtis]

That is part of morrigan's character.

I understand that is also part of zevran's character getting it on with whoever he can.

Best to avoid doing the same thing twice imo.

[shootist70]

I don't see any reason why an npc shouldn't attempt to initiate a romance. That's actually some pretty strong and immersive characterisation. The flow and ease of refusal is something that's down to the writers to perfect.

If however, disapproval of this is down to some sort discomfort of with s/s romance initiation, and the argument is a contrived one veiled behind that sense of discomfort - well, that's not something that any writer of any sort of fiction should concern themselves with.

All the player needs is a clear and obvious way to decline without any plot-related repercussions. If anybody asks for censorship beyond that then they have moral issues that no writer should attempt to compensate for.

Modifié par shootist70, 31 août 2010 - 01:06 .

[Collider]

shootist70 wrote...

I don't see any reason why an npc shouldn't attempt to initiate a romance. That's actually some pretty strong and immersive characterisation. The flow and ease of rebuttal is something that's down to the writers to perfect.

If however, disapproval of this is down to some sort discomfort of with s/s romance initiation, and the argument is a contrived one veiled behind that sense of discomfort - well, that's not something that any writer of any sort of fiction should concern themselves with.

All the player needs is a clear and obvious way to decline without any plot-related repercussions. If anybody asks for censorship beyond that then they have moral issues that no writer should attempt to compensate for.

I think it's reasonable to prefer, in context of soceity not fully tolerating homosexuality yet, for same sex romances/flirting to be initiated by the player only. I personally don't care, but I think it would be a smart move by Bioware, because some people are weirded out about it, and not just because they may find it gross (they may have religious reasons).

[Arrtis]

shootist70 wrote...

I don't see any reason why an npc shouldn't attempt to initiate a romance. That's actually some pretty strong and immersive characterisation. The flow and ease of refusal is something that's down to the writers to perfect.

If however, disapproval of this is down to some sort discomfort of with s/s romance initiation, and the argument is a contrived one veiled behind that sense of discomfort - well, that's not something that any writer of any sort of fiction should concern themselves with.

All the player needs is a clear and obvious way to decline without any plot-related repercussions. If anybody asks for censorship beyond that then they have moral issues that no writer should attempt to compensate for.

They already have zevran hit on you at the start.
We should go with something different.
Maybe a shy gay dwarf that you would have to really pursue?

[exoproto]

I'd rather not have a dwarf as an LI. A shy one, even less! Is there even such a thing? I thought dwarfs were the most social of all the races in Thedas. You could be complete strangers, but so long as someone has booze, you could act is if brothers from another mother.



I'll stick with the shield brother idea, thanks.

[shootist70]

Collider wrote...

I think it's reasonable to prefer, in context of soceity not fully tolerating homosexuality yet, for same sex romances/flirting to be initiated by the player only. I personally don't care, but I think it would be a smart move by Bioware, because some people are weirded out about it, and not just because they may find it gross (they may have religious reasons).

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. All the writers have to concern themselves with is creative integrity. Addressing moral sensitivities is not, and shouldn't ever be, their concern. I absolutely detest it when moral concerns attempt to censor the creative process, if the creator is not doing anything that steps beyond legal boundaries.

The act of censorship should naturally fall on the consumer, not the creator. They can elect to vote with their feet if they feel that strongly about it. I can guarantee this, though - the folks from cultural backwaters who may decide to boycott are probably negligable compared to the numbers of tolerant, open minded western consumers.

[Arrtis]

exoproto wrote...

I'd rather not have a dwarf as an LI. A shy one, even less! Is there even such a thing? I thought dwarfs were the most social of all the races in Thedas. You could be complete strangers, but so long as someone has booze, you could act is if brothers from another mother.

I'll stick with the shield brother idea, thanks.

Nah dwarfs arent like that in DA2.
Then how about an elf mage?
Whats wrong with a shy gay person?

[Collider]

shootist70 wrote...

Collider wrote...

I think it's reasonable to prefer, in context of soceity not fully tolerating homosexuality yet, for same sex romances/flirting to be initiated by the player only. I personally don't care, but I think it would be a smart move by Bioware, because some people are weirded out about it, and not just because they may find it gross (they may have religious reasons).

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. All the writers have to concern themselves with is creative integrity. Addressing moral sensitivities is not, and shouldn't ever be, their concern.

I agree on principle, but that is not the case realistically. Not everything that someone could think up in their head could reasonably be put into a Bioware game. Though this is not a moral issue in particular. It has more to do with the comfort and convenience of some players.

I absolutely detest it when moral concerns attempt to censor the creative process, if the creator is not doing anything that steps beyond legal boundaries.

The act of censorship should naturally fall on the consumer, not the creator. They can elect to vote with their feet if they feel that strongly about it. I can guarantee this, though - the folks from cultural backwaters who may decide to boycott are probably negligable compared to the numbers of tolerant, open minded western consumers.

You're acting as if it's impossible for Bioware to write a character who is bisexual or gay but does not flirt with the same sex (or any sex) without being shown interest first.

[exoproto]

Arrtis wrote...

Nah dwarfs arent like that in DA2.
Then how about an elf mage?
Whats wrong with a shy gay person?

I must have missed the memo where the dwarves were completely rewritten then.



I don't have any problems with a shy (whether it be straight or s/s, mind you) LI. It's just not my cup of tea. I'd rather have someone that's hard to get (and I don't mean playing) or something far more interesting than a shy anything. Someone made a poll once with a Blind Warrior as a potential companion (or was it LI?). I think that would be a pretty nifty idea. I'm sure he (or she!) would have much different perceptions on love and romance in general. Plus, I think it would be a little more intimate.

[Arrtis]

I think bioware is capable of making a LI that does not make a move until you do.

[Arrtis]

exoproto wrote...

Arrtis wrote...

Nah dwarfs arent like that in DA2.
Then how about an elf mage?
Whats wrong with a shy gay person?

I must have missed the memo where the dwarves were completely rewritten then.



I don't have any problems with a shy (whether it be straight or s/s, mind you) LI. It's just not my cup of tea. I'd rather have someone that's hard to get (and I don't mean playing) or something far more interesting than a shy anything. Someone made a poll once with a Blind Warrior as a potential companion (or was it LI?). I think that would be a pretty nifty idea. I'm sure he (or she!) would have much different perceptions on love and romance in general. Plus, I think it would be a little more intimate.

I do not see why being blind would change those perceptions...or be more intimate...

[Collider]

MariSkep wrote...

shootist70 wrote...
All the player needs is a clear and obvious way to decline without any plot-related repercussions. If anybody asks for censorship beyond that then they have moral issues that no writer should attempt to compensate for.

Small quibble, I think there should be plot repercussions for rejecting an affair or someone's advances depending on the situation and character. Certain characters (a bitter noble, a jealous Captain ect) wouldn't let something like cheating on them or flat out refusing their advances slide.

The most important thing - for party members - for me is that there should be meaningful interaction with them without having to romance them.

[Arrtis]

I certainly do mind flirts!

I wanna do it first!

And if I am not interested I do not wanna deal with it at all.

[Collider]

MariSkep wrote...

Collider wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

shootist70 wrote...
All the player needs is a clear and obvious way to decline without any plot-related repercussions. If anybody asks for censorship beyond that then they have moral issues that no writer should attempt to compensate for.

Small quibble, I think there should be plot repercussions for rejecting an affair or someone's advances depending on the situation and character. Certain characters (a bitter noble, a jealous Captain ect) wouldn't let something like cheating on them or flat out refusing their advances slide.

The most important thing - for party members - for me is that there should be meaningful interaction with them without having to romance them.

Agreed. But I wouldn't mind having a flirt around camp even if I'm playing a celibate hero.

For the fact that we already have Zevran, I don't want the flirt to be another bisexual male.

[obnoxiousgas]

Arrtis wrote...

exoproto wrote...

I'd rather not have a dwarf as an LI. A shy one, even less! Is there even such a thing? I thought dwarfs were the most social of all the races in Thedas. You could be complete strangers, but so long as someone has booze, you could act is if brothers from another mother.

I'll stick with the shield brother idea, thanks.

Nah dwarfs arent like that in DA2.
Then how about an elf mage?
Whats wrong with a shy gay person?

There is nothing wrong with a shy gay person; the fact that you are suggesting it is rubbing people the wrong way because you've made it clear that you feel uncomfortable with Male/Male romance in the game, particularly when that character hits on you. Because of that, people are more inclined to disagree with your point because to a certain degree it feels like you're actually asking to be catered to after your previous posts asking to make homosexual romances in game available either as a patch or via DLC, which is understandably quite offensive.

Of course, you could just be making a fair suggestion for a possible gay/bi character, but please consider how you may be coming across. Unless you're trolling, in which case I suppose this entire post is pointless.

[shootist70]

Collider wrote...

I agree on principle, but that is not the case realistically. Not everything that someone could think up in their head could reasonably be put into a Bioware game. Though this is not a moral issue in particular. It has more to do with the comfort and convenience of some players.

You're essentially asking for mature themes to be treated in a very immature manner. I say that this medium will never move towards towards true dramatic expression and characterisation while it's saddled with those immature interpretations. Sound implausible? I can tell you this for certain - if you were to write a novel that portrayed such characters in such a one-dimensional manner to appease certain moral sensitivities you would be torn to shreds  by your critics. You would never hear the last of it. I see no reason why the genre shouldn't move towards that level of creative integrity when it comes to portraying character types.

Modifié par shootist70, 31 août 2010 - 01:33 .

[exoproto]

Arrtis wrote...


I do not see why being blind would change those perceptions...or be more intimate...

All in one's opinions. For one, when you're blind, most people don't treat you the same as they would a "normal" person. Attractiveness does not really matter in this case; personality does. So if you haven't been able to grow up watching all dem swinging hips, who's to say you'll find them appealing in any way. It's a.. weird concept. 'S probably why I'd like to see it (although I doubt it).

And on the note of being more intimate, well.. there certainly is a depth of emotion that would initially occur where a romance could certainly sprout from. Example:

"But, I'm blind."
"So? You're still as good a warrior as any man I've ever met."
"+ 20 Approval"

.. As opposed to:

"But, I'm blind."
"Then I have no use for you."
"-30 Approval"

Not to mention I'm a sap for those scenes they show in the movies where they "see" what you look like by tracing their hands over you. Like DareDevil, for instance.