2001 réponses à ce sujet

[Bruddajakka]

Yeah unless you mod them a lot of the romances feel half done. Seriously there's a big difference between Hardened, and Unhardened Leliana, and unless you use a mod you don't get to see it. Same with Zevran.

[Chris Readman]

Saibh wrote...

I prefer Alistair over Zevran, but Zevran proposes. Sort of. 

Sigh... Yes, I prefer Alistair too. Too bad he becomes a little bit of an ass the moment he becomes king. But no matter how much I like Alistair, I sure hope they don't fall back on these "phenotypes" (can't think of the proper literary term right now) that have already done.

[KLUME777]

Just like Shepherd, Hawke is a specific character that bioware are making, so there might be no gay romance at all, because Hawke, unlike the Grey Warden in Origins, is Biowares character, not your character. And he might not be gay, like Shepherd.

[Eudaemonium]

Chris Readman wrote...

Saibh wrote...

I prefer Alistair over Zevran, but Zevran proposes. Sort of. 

Sigh... Yes, I prefer Alistair too. Too bad he becomes a little bit of an ass the moment he becomes king. But no matter how much I like Alistair, I sure hope they don't fall back on these "phenotypes" (can't think of the proper literary term right now) that have already done.

Archetypes?

[Saibh]

KLUME777 wrote...


Just like Shepherd, Hawke is a specific character that bioware are making, so there might be no gay romance at all, because Hawke, unlike the Grey Warden in Origins, is Biowares character, not your character. And he might not be gay, like Shepherd.

After all, Shepard's too predefined to be homosexual--disregard your power to make FemShep a lesbian, occasionally it actually being beyond your power not to be interested in women (hello there flirty smile with Shiala!). It's okay for commanding females to only be interested in other females, but it's not okay for commanding men to only be interested in other men.

I can't even describe my disgust with that particular explanation. I understand why they did it, but, still, how...ignoble.

[Clover Rider]

MariSkep wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

DontoPrest wrote...

I'm all for some m/m love. Preferably with a taller, and more serious qunari. I had mixed feeling about Zevran, but I learned to love him for who he is. I'd just like someone more... masculine. Bioware makes awesome characters, so I'm sure whoever he is he'll be great. Assuming there is one of course.

I want a gay Kenshiro and this music  will play anytime we talk to him .

...You mean Ken wasn't gay?

You don't know you are already dead  <_<.

Nande?

Oh no the zebu-!

I hate to reply so late to this but you wa shock .

[Saibh]

Blasto the jelly wrote...

Saibh wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...


Just like Shepherd, Hawke is a specific character that bioware are making, so there might be no gay romance at all, because Hawke, unlike the Grey Warden in Origins, is Biowares character, not your character. And he might not be gay, like Shepherd.

After all, Shepard's too predefined to be homosexual--disregard your power to make FemShep a lesbian, occasionally it actually being beyond your power not to be interested in women (hello there flirty smile with Shiala!). It's okay for commanding females to only be interested in other females, but it's not okay for commanding men to only be interested in other men.

I can't even describe my disgust with that particular explanation. I understand why they did it, but, still, how...ignoble.

Asari are asexual so fem shep cant be gay if theres no female also i agree bioware should put a male on male romance in DA2.

First of all, to a human, she's female. To a human, if you are straight, there's no reason to be attracted to an asari if you don't like girls. From everything we know, they look, sound, and even act like women. They are referred to as "she", all of the nouns associated with them are feminine. Kaidan will even start to say he didn't know you were a lesbian.

Regardless, there's still Kelly.

[scootermcgaffin]

Asari may not be female, but they sure are women.



Sex and gender are different.

[upsettingshorts]

scootermcgaffin wrote...

Asari may not be female, but they sure are women.

Sex and gender are different.

Yes and no.  Sex and gender are different, but I believe you have it backwards.

Technically Asari are female. They don't have or need males, but they are all still capable of giving birth. It's actually gender they don't have - to them there are no social differences - to us they are feminine because they possess physical attributes similar to human female secondary sex characteristics.

From a human perspective, they are feminine. To the Asari perspective, there is no concept of masculine/feminine.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 07 septembre 2010 - 11:20 .

[shootist70]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Yes and no.  Sex and gender are different, but I believe you have it backwards.

Technically Asari are female. They don't have or need males, but they are all still capable of giving birth. It's actually gender they don't have - to them there are no social differences - to us they are feminine because they possess physical attributes similar to human female secondary sex characteristics.

From a human perspective, they are feminine. To the Asari perspective, there is no concept of masculine/feminine.

And as far as the developer and the player are concerned they're symbolic of human female sex/sexuality. Forget the lore garbage and see the subtext.

Modifié par shootist70, 07 septembre 2010 - 11:55 .

[upsettingshorts]

I don't see how they're mutually exclusive.

[shootist70]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I don't see how they're mutually exclusive.

They can be very mutually exclusive. A developer might stick a lesbian love scene in a game. The subtext would be the fact that it's their pretty much for male gamer gratification. The 'lore' would be an attempt to get it past the moral guardians.

Modifié par shootist70, 07 septembre 2010 - 12:52 .

[upsettingshorts]

Again, I still don't see how they're mutually exclusive. The lore doesn't contradict the intent. Asari are female but due to their unique sexual reproduction they are essentially bisexual when it comes to other races.



Your argument seems to be that if their motivation was to simply include a fanservice race than the lore they used to justify it is irrelevant. It is not. It helps the audience suspend disbelief when the Asari makes sense, and they kinda-sorta do. It's not like female parthenogenesis is unheard of or a made up method of reproduction. Sure it's convenient but also reasonable, and that is why they are not mutually exclusive.

[shootist70]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Again, I still don't see how they're mutually exclusive. The lore doesn't contradict the intent. Asari are female but due to their unique sexual reproduction they are essentially bisexual when it comes to other races.

Your argument seems to be that if their motivation was to simply include a fanservice race than the lore they used to justify it is irrelevant. It is not. It helps the audience suspend disbelief when the Asari makes sense, and they kinda-sorta do. It's not like female parthenogenesis is unheard of or a made up method of reproduction. Sure it's convenient but also reasonable, and that is why they are not mutually exclusive.

And you really don't think that developing a lore to supposedly deepen an aspect of a creation, and then using that aspect as an obviously cheesy and shallow trope is contradictory?

[upsettingshorts]

Nope.

The fact they put so much work into it, work that makes their behavior internally consistent and effects much more than just their sexuality, no longer makes it cheesy and shallow.

Cheesy and shallow is a random 3-boobed chick at a bar on Mars in Total Recall. Cheesy and shallow is giving Liara eyebrows when no other Asari aside from her mother has them. Cheesy and shallow is Miranda talking about love 20 minutes into their relationship. Cheesy and shallow is every man and woman in the galaxy having what could be called an attractive physique (no short, fat people). Cheesy and shallow is what Miranda and Samara's outfits are.  There's plenty of cheese and shallowness in science fiction and Mass Effect, but a well defined race with internal consistency isn't just because they're all female.

Not to mention the fact they're the most powerful, intelligent, and cunning race in the galaxy - according to that same lore - and they didn't need men to get there. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 07 septembre 2010 - 01:11 .

[shootist70]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Nope.

The fact they put so much work into it, work that makes their behavior internally consistent and effects much more than just their sexuality, no longer makes it cheesy and shallow.

Cheesy and shallow is a random 3-boobed chick at a bar on Mars in Total Recall. Cheesy and shallow is giving Liara eyebrows when no other Asari aside from her mother has them. Cheesy and shallow is Miranda talking about love 20 minutes into their relationship. Cheesy and shallow is every man and woman in the galaxy having what could be called an attractive physique (no short, fat people). There's plenty of cheese and shallowness in science fiction and Mass Effect, but a well defined race with internal consistency isn't just because they're all female.

Some of you fans take this lore stuff way too seriously. This stuff wasn't created by some ascetic writer in a studio flat overlooking Paris. It's a corporate product brainstomed around a meeting room table.

Try looking at it again - detail does not = depth. There is no subtext amongst Asari lore that we can say attaches more meaning other than the use of a well known sci-fi trope. If you want to say that the Asari are more than just a vehicle for cheesy sci-fi lesbo sex then you have to go a lot further than just reeling off the lore itself - only dumb fans do that. You have to describe the nature of the unspoken subtext itself.

Modifié par shootist70, 07 septembre 2010 - 01:21 .

[upsettingshorts]

shootist70 wrote...

Some of you fans take this lore stuff way too seriously. This stuff wasn't created by some ascetic writer in a studio flat overlooking Paris. It's a corporate product brainstomed around a meeting room table.

And your criticism isn't taking it too seriously?  

If my argument must be distilled into something simple for the sake of putting an end to this tangent, it is simply that the Asari could have been worse if it wasn't for their lore.   Is there lore explaining Samara's silly outfit?  Is there lore explaining Miranda's skin tight bodysuit?  An explanation, even if it was "brainstormed around a meeting room table" is still explosition, and it's still part of the story and therefore relevant to the story's internal consistency.  That's enough for me to suspend disbelief.  I don't pretend it's enough for you or everyone else.

Not to mention plenty of very good TV shows and movies were "brainstormed around a meeting room table."  No-one however is mistaking Mass Effect for Asimov, except potentially EA's marketing team.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 07 septembre 2010 - 01:30 .

[Jimmy Fury]

wow... this thread has a really hard time staying on topic doesn' it?

[Zreon]

I feel it's a weak argument to say Shepard can't be homosexual because the Asari are aliens and not women. Beacuse no matter how you look at it, the fact that femShep shows interest in an individual that has the physical appearance of a human woman (or close at least), shows that she cannot be strictly straight. At the very least she is bi-sexual.

In fact, I think this explanation is ridiculous. So Shepard is more pre-defined than a DA character. So what? Shepard can be male or female and has a great variety of love interests to choose from. I don't see how Shepards sexual orientation has any importance on the plot or character design and no reason why a gay Shepard should be forbidden.

They should have just said "We didn't want to." or "We weren't allowed to." instead of giving a reasoning like this.

But maybe I miss their whole point and ME3 will enlighten me.



Back to the topic: Why not have a scholar type character as a gay or bi love interest? Either in the party or as an NPC to assist you as the champion of the free marches. We always get the soldier/warrior types, I think we need more scholars.

I usually go for the female love interests, but I believe that M/M romance needs some more love too. There should be something for every taste.

[shootist70]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

No-one however is mistaking Mass Effect for Asimov

Exactly my point, isn't it? I can recognise it for what it is and not try to make it out as more than that, as you tried to do.

There's a point to relevant, realistic criticism - you can hold a developer to higher standards, and we're not talking the 'deep and meaningful' here, simply decent treatment of the subject matter. That's as relevant to this thread as anything else.

[shootist70]

MariSkep wrote...

So we're back on the hot bi blue alien chicks?

Is there a better place to be?

Seriously, though, as I've just said, some of us feel the subject deserves far better treatment than the tired cliches (Liara, Zevran) we've seen so far. We're not asking for social commentary, just decent creative standards.