2001 réponses à ce sujet

[Taura-Tierno]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Perles75 wrote...

I was wondering if a character romanceable by both sexes must be necessarily be set as bisexual. After all, each game is a separate entity, so he/she could be set as gay in one run and straight in another.

I've asked questions similar to this. The problem is automatic meta-gaming. The vast majority of people (at least the vast majority of people on here) do not perceive different playthroughs as different stories. At least when it comes to the sexuality of characters. 
It's the same odd logic that causes homophobes to blow a gasket when anyone suggests s/s relationships for Shepard and now Hawke. The mere possibility for the character to have a s/s relationship, despite being entirely dependent on the player to choose that option, means that the character must be bisexual.
Which is, of course, not true but that doesn't stop people from thinking it.

highcastle wrote...
@Perles75: The NPCs have the same characterization no matter what. Only the PC's actions may change them a
bit. But sexual orientation is one of those things decided by birth, so it would make no sense to have a character be straight when you play  female and gay when you play male. It just feeds that nonsense about sexuality being a choice. I'd rather the love interests be bi or explicitly gay, but the latter's not likely to happen anytime soon.

I would say you're patently wrong that NPC have the same characterization no matter what. If the PC's action can change them in any way then their characterization is dependent upon the player.
Hardening Alistair and Leliana for example, results in 2 very different characters by the end of the game. 
-edit- not to mention that your argument could easily be used to restrict hawke's sexuality...

Not to mention that there are people who go a loooong time thinking they're straight, and then for some reason realizes that they're gay or bi. So it be as easy as a love interest that's had no prior gay experiences, and only "turns" gay when meeting the protagonist. Or "figures out (s)he's gay", if that feels more appropriate.

[catabuca]

How many people who are claiming they won't play DA2 if it includes m/m romance options managed to make it all the way through DA:O? I guess they just didn't choose the m/m option in the first game. Funny how things being OPTIONAL works, isn't it.

[Saibh]

catabuca wrote...

How many people who are claiming they won't play DA2 if it includes m/m romance options managed to make it all the way through DA:O? I guess they just didn't choose the m/m option in the first game. Funny how things being OPTIONAL works, isn't it.

Are really that many people claiming that?  In any case, I couldn't take them more seriously than I could a threat of not buying DA2 if it doesn't include bowstrings. Even things like "OMG we want our Warden back!" have mostly faded away. People are free to shout on a forum and make themselves feel better. We don't have microchips in our asses that record what games we buy after claiming to boycott them.

Modifié par Saibh, 30 octobre 2010 - 04:57 .

[BENIICHAT]

I don't think "Many Gamers" wouldn't buy Dragon Age 2,because this games included Same Sex Romance and Player Free to choose or not choose this Romance option (and other Romance Option too) .





Sorry for My English Skill. T_T

[chex mix]

catabuca wrote...

How many people who are claiming they won't play DA2 if it includes m/m romance options managed to make it all the way through DA:O? I guess they just didn't choose the m/m option in the first game. Funny how things being OPTIONAL works, isn't it.

who claimed that?  its the homosexuals claiming they wont play DA2  if it doesnt have s/s content.

[upsettingshorts]

Yep, M/M and F/F are optional (just like M/F), I support the right of those who want them to have them, but they've never interested me much and I almost never pursue them. They'll put it in if they've got time and resources, or if they don't they won't.

It's not a value judgment. It's not an indictment of any particular sexual practices. To a game developer the variety of romance options available are a like-to-have not a need-to-have, because these games are fantasy RPGs not dating simulations. If it was the latter, and it did exclude homosexual or bisexual options, that would be egregious. But it's not, so it isn't.

If they genuinely can't afford to do a S/S romance well, then I do think though they should allow the player to, in some way, express to a potential LI that they are in fact gay and not interested.  It wouldn't be so much to "throw them a bone" as it were, but to allow players roleplaying gay protagonists to express themselves.

Anyway, that's my take.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 30 octobre 2010 - 05:59 .

[Dhiro]

chex mix wrote...

catabuca wrote...

How many people who are claiming they won't play DA2 if it includes m/m romance options managed to make it all the way through DA:O? I guess they just didn't choose the m/m option in the first game. Funny how things being OPTIONAL works, isn't it.

who claimed that?  its the homosexuals claiming they wont play DA2  if it doesnt have s/s content.

They said that? I wouldn't mind if we don't get to romance someone of the same sex (a little disapointed, maybe, but I'm here for the pri-- game), but if we think a little is the same as the people who claim they won't play a game if they can't be woman. I can't really say tthey are wrong.

Modifié par Dhiro, 30 octobre 2010 - 06:30 .

[Saibh]

chex mix wrote...

catabuca wrote...

How many people who are claiming they won't play DA2 if it includes m/m romance options managed to make it all the way through DA:O? I guess they just didn't choose the m/m option in the first game. Funny how things being OPTIONAL works, isn't it.

who claimed that?  its the homosexuals claiming they wont play DA2  if it doesnt have s/s content.

Wrong, it's the elves saying they won't play DA2 because there are no elf origins!

[Jimmy Fury]

Saibh wrote...

Jimmy Fury wrote...

highcastle wrote...
@Perles75: The NPCs have the same characterization no matter what. Only the PC's actions may change them a
bit. But sexual orientation is one of those things decided by birth, so it would make no sense to have a character be straight when you play  female and gay when you play male. It just feeds that nonsense about sexuality being a choice. I'd rather the love interests be bi or explicitly gay, but the latter's not likely to happen anytime soon.

I would say you're patently wrong that NPC have the same characterization no matter what. If the PC's action can change them in any way then their characterization is dependent upon the player.
Hardening Alistair and Leliana for example, results in 2 very different characters by the end of the game. 
-edit- not to mention that your argument could easily be used to restrict hawke's sexuality...

Highcastle mentioned that only the PC's actions may change them--and, honestly, you don't get a whole new character out of it. Alistair changes the most--but almost all of his dialogue, interactions, and personality remain the same. Making Leliana are harder person or Alistair care more about himself is more a worldview change, and not the PC directly influencing sexuality.

I'm in agreement--sexuality should be defined to characters. You had romances like Sky's in JE, where he wouldn't reveal he was bisexual unless you previously turned down two of the most beautiful women in the kingdom (one of the a princess, no less). He was always bisexual, but you didn't know it--that, to me, isn't a change in sexuality, but revealing a different aspect. You're never really going to see Zevran's soft side unless you romance him; Sten is always cold unless you befriend him. I'm not against different facets of a character--but their sexuality shouldn't change. Changing it depending on gender is cheap.

Also, Hawke is the PC--his personality is for you to decide. Anyone who used that argument to restrict Hawke's sexuality is taking it out of context.

Are they though? It was one of the multitude of reasons given for Shepard not being allowed s/s relationships. His sexuality was a set characteristic that could not be changed because it was "who he is" no matter what. You could manipulate his personality in terms of responses but not his innate characteristics...
It's the same argument.

I really don't see how changing a characters expressed sexuality (they never have to declare "I'm gay!" or "I'm straight!". just only express interest in the sex of the protag) is any cheaper than having 3 or 4 conveniently bisexual companions as some people have requested.

but eh. maybe it's just me. i just get tired of listening to my PC's love interest ramble on and on about his endless sexual escapades.

[chex mix]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Jimmy Fury wrote...

highcastle wrote...
@Perles75: The NPCs have the same characterization no matter what. Only the PC's actions may change them a
bit. But sexual orientation is one of those things decided by birth, so it would make no sense to have a character be straight when you play  female and gay when you play male. It just feeds that nonsense about sexuality being a choice. I'd rather the love interests be bi or explicitly gay, but the latter's not likely to happen anytime soon.

I would say you're patently wrong that NPC have the same characterization no matter what. If the PC's action can change them in any way then their characterization is dependent upon the player.
Hardening Alistair and Leliana for example, results in 2 very different characters by the end of the game. 
-edit- not to mention that your argument could easily be used to restrict hawke's sexuality...

Highcastle mentioned that only the PC's actions may change them--and, honestly, you don't get a whole new character out of it. Alistair changes the most--but almost all of his dialogue, interactions, and personality remain the same. Making Leliana are harder person or Alistair care more about himself is more a worldview change, and not the PC directly influencing sexuality.

I'm in agreement--sexuality should be defined to characters. You had romances like Sky's in JE, where he wouldn't reveal he was bisexual unless you previously turned down two of the most beautiful women in the kingdom (one of the a princess, no less). He was always bisexual, but you didn't know it--that, to me, isn't a change in sexuality, but revealing a different aspect. You're never really going to see Zevran's soft side unless you romance him; Sten is always cold unless you befriend him. I'm not against different facets of a character--but their sexuality shouldn't change. Changing it depending on gender is cheap.

Also, Hawke is the PC--his personality is for you to decide. Anyone who used that argument to restrict Hawke's sexuality is taking it out of context.

Are they though? It was one of the multitude of reasons given for Shepard not being allowed s/s relationships. His sexuality was a set characteristic that could not be changed because it was "who he is" no matter what. You could manipulate his personality in terms of responses but not his innate characteristics...
It's the same argument.

I really don't see how changing a characters expressed sexuality (they never have to declare "I'm gay!" or "I'm straight!". just only express interest in the sex of the protag) is any cheaper than having 3 or 4 conveniently bisexual companions as some people have requested.

but eh. maybe it's just me. i just get tired of listening to my PC's love interest ramble on and on about his endless sexual escapades.

that's what I like about mass effect, romances were not a big part of the story. 

[Taura-Tierno]

But Mass Effect is a much more linear story, in some ways. It's Shepard's story. That's what they've said, right? That it's the story of a pre-set character? There really never was much wiggle-room with Shepard, other than the renegade/paragon-decision. (S)he was still loyal to humanity, working for the (greater) good, etc.



Whereas in Dragon Age, I've never had the impression that they've tried to make the protagonist pre-set in any way. Or at least that they've tried to keep pre-set attributes to as few as possible. And sexuality would be one of those. In DA2, it would be really weird if we're to shape a character across a decade and not have more influence on the personality than we had on Shepard's.

[Saibh]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Are they though? It was one of the multitude of reasons given for Shepard not being allowed s/s relationships. His sexuality was a set characteristic that could not be changed because it was "who he is" no matter what. You could manipulate his personality in terms of responses but not his innate characteristics...
It's the same argument.

I really don't see how changing a characters expressed sexuality (they never have to declare "I'm gay!" or "I'm straight!". just only express interest in the sex of the protag) is any cheaper than having 3 or 4 conveniently bisexual companions as some people have requested.

but eh. maybe it's just me. i just get tired of listening to my PC's love interest ramble on and on about his endless sexual escapades.

Yes, they can use that argument, and sometimes it is valid. In Shepard's case, it is not. The argument completely and utterly collapses when you can make your FemShep exclusively lesbian. And the fact that they clearly didn't "define" ManShep's sexuality because both games contain Dummied Out M/M romances--the first has the whole path down.

It's not wrong to say that Cole McGrath or Leon Kennedy or Lara Croft or whomever have a definied sexuality. They are defined characters. From what we have heard of Hawke, he is less defined than Shepard, and still under player control. I'm going to assume we at least after F/F romances because of the inclusion of Isabela (it'll be plain weird if for some reason a Lady Hawke can't pursue her).

Actually, you'd be looking at two bisexual characters--I really doubt we'll ever get as high as three or four in one game. I suppose it depends on the way it was handled.

Modifié par Saibh, 30 octobre 2010 - 10:10 .

[chex mix]

Saibh wrote...

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Are they though? It was one of the multitude of reasons given for Shepard not being allowed s/s relationships. His sexuality was a set characteristic that could not be changed because it was "who he is" no matter what. You could manipulate his personality in terms of responses but not his innate characteristics...
It's the same argument.

I really don't see how changing a characters expressed sexuality (they never have to declare "I'm gay!" or "I'm straight!". just only express interest in the sex of the protag) is any cheaper than having 3 or 4 conveniently bisexual companions as some people have requested.

but eh. maybe it's just me. i just get tired of listening to my PC's love interest ramble on and on about his endless sexual escapades.

Yes, they can use that argument, and sometimes it is valid. In Shepard's case, it is not. The argument completely and utterly collapses when you can make your FemShep exclusively lesbian. And the fact that they clearly didn't "define" ManShep's sexuality because both games contain Dummied Out M/M romances--the first has the whole path down.

It's not wrong to say that Cole McGrath or Leon Kennedy or Lara Croft or whomever have a definied sexuality. They are defined characters. From what we have heard of Hawke, he is less defined than Shepard, and still under player control. I'm going to assume we at least after F/F romances because of the inclusion of Isabela (it'll be plain weird if for some reason a Lady Hawke can't pursue her).

Actually, you'd be looking at two bisexual characters--I really doubt we'll ever get as high as three or four in one game. I suppose it depends on the way it was handled.

idk know about isabel being s/s, though I'd like her bi, but i have my doubts isabela will be for both sexes.  (Jack slept with other women, but she was only romancable by males) She is advertised with Hawke in both trailers and when they wrote the 3/4some content they weren't planning anything for her in the future.

[Saibh]

chex mix wrote...

idk know about isabel being s/s, though I'd like her bi, but i have my doubts isabela will be for both sexes.  (Jack slept with other women, but she was only romancable by males) She is advertised with Hawke in both trailers and when they wrote the 3/4some content they weren't planning anything for her in the future.

I believe the line doesn't necessarily imply Jack was in a relationship with that woman. I think. Regardless, she could have been coerced. There's an equally ambiguous line that could be taken to mean she either doesn't want to talk to a female Shepard or doesn't like that a female Shepard is coming on to her (by talking to her, of course). On the other hand, Isabela openly sleeps and flirts with a woman--maybe two--and is clearly bisexual. Unless her character gets a massive overhaul, or they decide that Hawke is canonically straight, there's no reason for her not to be a bisexual love interest.

Honestly, if they're going to change her looks, voice, sexuality, and flirty aspect of her personality and keep "dark-skinned pirate", I have to wonder why they even bother making it Isabela.

We have yet to see a female Hawke in a trailer--as it is, we have a single screenshot of her. Besides that, I really doubt it would showcase the female love interest, and not the male one.

[Jimmy Fury]

chex mix wrote...
idk know about isabel being s/s, though I'd like her bi, but i have my doubts isabela will be for both sexes.  (Jack slept with other women, but she was only romancable by males) She is advertised with Hawke in both trailers and when they wrote the 3/4some content they weren't planning anything for her in the future.

I'd be surprised and disappointed if Isabela isn't a s/s option. That would just be silly.

[chex mix]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

chex mix wrote...
idk know about isabel being s/s, though I'd like her bi, but i have my doubts isabela will be for both sexes.  (Jack slept with other women, but she was only romancable by males) She is advertised with Hawke in both trailers and when they wrote the 3/4some content they weren't planning anything for her in the future.

I'd be surprised and disappointed if Isabela isn't a s/s option. That would just be silly.

thats how i feel about it, but we'll see.  as a straight dood i'm always up for some girl on girl

now for m/m, i would like to see an option for those who like that stuff but the only 2 men are your bro and a templar on his deathbed, but who knows half the doods in thedas seem like horndogs.

[Dhiro]

chex mix wrote...

Jimmy Fury wrote...

chex mix wrote...
idk know about isabel being s/s, though I'd like her bi, but i have my doubts isabela will be for both sexes.  (Jack slept with other women, but she was only romancable by males) She is advertised with Hawke in both trailers and when they wrote the 3/4some content they weren't planning anything for her in the future.

I'd be surprised and disappointed if Isabela isn't a s/s option. That would just be silly.

thats how i feel about it, but we'll see.  as a straight dood i'm always up for some girl on girl

now for m/m, i would like to see an option for those who like that stuff but the only 2 men are your bro and a templar on his deathbed, but who knows half the doods in thedas seem like horndogs.

I can't see why be a "horndog" make someone gay. But anyway, they'll probably show the character until the end of the year, I guess. For all we know, Varric could be the bissexual character.

[chex mix]

Saibh wrote...

chex mix wrote...

idk know about isabel being s/s, though I'd like her bi, but i have my doubts isabela will be for both sexes.  (Jack slept with other women, but she was only romancable by males) She is advertised with Hawke in both trailers and when they wrote the 3/4some content they weren't planning anything for her in the future.

I believe the line doesn't necessarily imply Jack was in a relationship with that woman. I think. Regardless, she could have been coerced. There's an equally ambiguous line that could be taken to mean she either doesn't want to talk to a female Shepard or doesn't like that a female Shepard is coming on to her (by talking to her, of course). On the other hand, Isabela openly sleeps and flirts with a woman--maybe two--and is clearly bisexual. Unless her character gets a massive overhaul, or they decide that Hawke is canonically straight, there's no reason for her not to be a bisexual love interest.

Honestly, if they're going to change her looks, voice, sexuality, and flirty aspect of her personality and keep "dark-skinned pirate", I have to wonder why they even bother making it Isabela.

We have yet to see a female Hawke in a trailer--as it is, we have a single screenshot of her. Besides that, I really doubt it would showcase the female love interest, and not the male one.

i personally think she is more charmed that you are a grey warden then your gender, but yea she does flirt with a woman and a little more flirty with the male.  She'll prolly be like zev and say she prefers males or something   I'm just saying the advertised LI is always straight. but it'll be interesting to see how much this Isabela is to origins isabela.  Either way i'll be romancing her as a male because i can't make decent looking females.

Modifié par chex mix, 31 octobre 2010 - 12:33 .

[chex mix]

Dhiro wrote...

chex mix wrote...

Jimmy Fury wrote...

chex mix wrote...
idk know about isabel being s/s, though I'd like her bi, but i have my doubts isabela will be for both sexes.  (Jack slept with other women, but she was only romancable by males) She is advertised with Hawke in both trailers and when they wrote the 3/4some content they weren't planning anything for her in the future.

I'd be surprised and disappointed if Isabela isn't a s/s option. That would just be silly.

thats how i feel about it, but we'll see.  as a straight dood i'm always up for some girl on girl

now for m/m, i would like to see an option for those who like that stuff but the only 2 men are your bro and a templar on his deathbed, but who knows half the doods in thedas seem like horndogs.

I can't see why be a "horndog" make someone gay. But anyway, they'll probably show the character until the end of the year, I guess. For all we know, Varric could be the bissexual character.

i didn't mean horndog in a offensive way

[Dhiro]

Nhé, I was just curious. Don't worry about it.

[Saibh]

chex mix wrote...

i personally think she is more charmed that you are a grey warden then your gender, but yea she does flirt with a woman and a little more flirty with the male.

No, she is equally as flirty with a female Warden, and makes no effort to hide it. And she is interested in Leliana, as well, not just Zevran or Alistair.

She'll prolly be like zev and say she prefers males or something   I'm just saying the advertised LI is always straight. but it'll be interesting to see how much this Isabela is to origins isabela.  Either way i'll be romancing her as a male because i can't make decent looking females.

There was only a half romance for lesbians in KotOR--otherwise, Bastila was both the poster child of the game and the only male's love interest. In ME1, Ashley was preferable to Liara because she was human to showcase. In ME2, there are no s/s romances (Kelly not being a full romance). In DAO, again, Morrigan was the poster child and is also more important to the story than Leliana. And wears less clothes, so that's a bonus.

I don't think Jade Empire showed off a particular LI, did they?

[Dave of Canada]

Saibh wrote...

I don't think Jade Empire showed off a particular LI, did they?

I didn't play it but probably the one with the demon looking up the skirt. If that's the playable character, the demon is the romance option.

[Saibh]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Saibh wrote...

I don't think Jade Empire showed off a particular LI, did they?

I didn't play it but probably the one with the demon looking up the skirt. If that's the playable character, the demon is the romance option.

That's Wu the Lotus Blossom, a playable character, actually. When I first saw the cover art, I assumed she was a LI, too.

[Tranceptor]

Saibh wrote...

I don't think Jade Empire showed off a particular LI, did they?

Dawnstar.



EDIT: nevermind, that isn't Dawnstar

Modifié par Tranceptor, 31 octobre 2010 - 12:54 .

[NKKKK]

Nop, instead they show both genders of the player character (SOMETHING THEY SHOULD DO AGAIN)

Are they though? It was one of the multitude of reasons given for Shepard not being allowed s/s relationships. His sexuality was a set characteristic that could not be changed because it was "who he is" no matter what. You could manipulate his personality in terms of responses but not his innate characteristics...

It's the same argument.



I really don't see how changing a characters expressed sexuality (they never have to declare "I'm gay!" or "I'm straight!". just only express interest in the sex of the protag) is any cheaper than having 3 or 4 conveniently bisexual companions as some people have requested.



but eh. maybe it's just me. i just get tired of listening to my PC's love interest ramble on and on about his endless sexual escapades.

No matter how sensible you try to sound,the whole argument falls apart when you realize the first game had same sex lis but the sequel didn't. I'd be more especially pissed if they actually only put F/F and no M/M.



Me who rambles how sometimes people play the sexist card too easily, would play it here.