2001 réponses à ce sujet

[Perles75]

I frankly don't think that leaving the sexuality of a companion "fluid" (that is, making it depending on the sex of the Hawke) makes the characters less defined. After all it's only an aspect of the personality.

For example in DA:O, I could picture very well a gay Alistair without changing too much of his personality. The same goes with Morrigan. The character baseline can stay the same and, after all, each game is different so there wouldn't be such a big contradiction.

And besides, a true bisexuality is not easy to deliver; with Zevran they made a good job but I don't know how much they can reiterate without making it appear as a trick to allow same-sex relationships and simultaneously avoiding the "gay thing".



This setup (the "fluid" sexuality I mean) would have the not-negligible advantage of increasing a lot the romancing possibilities.

[Cazlee]

someone um, less experienced than zevran

[NKKKK]

It's funny how New Vegas has two homosexual companions (You can't romance them, buy you can have some M/M dialogue)

[chex mix]

Perles75 wrote...

I frankly don't think that leaving the sexuality of a companion "fluid" (that is, making it depending on the sex of the Hawke) makes the characters less defined. After all it's only an aspect of the personality.
For example in DA:O, I could picture very well a gay Alistair without changing too much of his personality. The same goes with Morrigan. The character baseline can stay the same and, after all, each game is different so there wouldn't be such a big contradiction.
And besides, a true bisexuality is not easy to deliver; with Zevran they made a good job but I don't know how much they can reiterate without making it appear as a trick to allow same-sex relationships and simultaneously avoiding the "gay thing".

This setup (the "fluid" sexuality I mean) would have the not-negligible advantage of increasing a lot the romancing possibilities.

with that logic i can make everyone in the world gay, just saying.

[Saibh]

Perles75 wrote...

I frankly don't think that leaving the sexuality of a companion "fluid" (that is, making it depending on the sex of the Hawke) makes the characters less defined. After all it's only an aspect of the personality.
For example in DA:O, I could picture very well a gay Alistair without changing too much of his personality. The same goes with Morrigan. The character baseline can stay the same and, after all, each game is different so there wouldn't be such a big contradiction.
And besides, a true bisexuality is not easy to deliver; with Zevran they made a good job but I don't know how much they can reiterate without making it appear as a trick to allow same-sex relationships and simultaneously avoiding the "gay thing".

This setup (the "fluid" sexuality I mean) would have the not-negligible advantage of increasing a lot the romancing possibilities.

Being straight, being bisexual, or being gay is more than just personality. Media stereotypes of camp gay or BFF gay or what have you are the unfortunate showcase. At the same time, I think it's important to set their sexuality. A lot of people who don't pursue Zevran's romance for some reason assume that he never mentions the fact he's bisexual, which plain isn't true. People get offended, act like its being swept under the rug.

All-in-all, it depends on personality. Zevran was very open--so why should he hide it? Leliana was more cautious, and pretty much plays games with a female Warden to try and judge if she's interested or not. She doesn't hide that she was interested in women, but she's more subtle about it and her attraction to the Warden. If Isabela is the s/s option for women, she has no reason to hide it, either.

Modifié par Saibh, 31 octobre 2010 - 02:30 .

[highcastle]

Saibh wrote...

Perles75 wrote...

I frankly don't think that leaving the sexuality of a companion "fluid" (that is, making it depending on the sex of the Hawke) makes the characters less defined. After all it's only an aspect of the personality.
For example in DA:O, I could picture very well a gay Alistair without changing too much of his personality. The same goes with Morrigan. The character baseline can stay the same and, after all, each game is different so there wouldn't be such a big contradiction.
And besides, a true bisexuality is not easy to deliver; with Zevran they made a good job but I don't know how much they can reiterate without making it appear as a trick to allow same-sex relationships and simultaneously avoiding the "gay thing".

This setup (the "fluid" sexuality I mean) would have the not-negligible advantage of increasing a lot the romancing possibilities.

Being straight, being bisexual, or being gay is more than just personality. Media stereotypes of camp gay or BFF gay or what have you are the unfortunate showcase. At the same time, I think it's important to set their sexuality. A lot of people who don't pursue Zevran's romance for some reason assume that he never mentions the fact he's bisexual, which plain isn't true. People get offended, act like its being swept under the rug.

All-in-all, it depends on personality. Zevran was very open--so why should he hide it? Leliana was more cautious, and pretty much plays games with a female Warden to try and judge if she's interested or not. She doesn't hide that she was interested in women, but she's more subtle about it and her attraction to the Warden. If Isabela is the s/s option for women, she has no reason to hide it, either.

That's pretty much what I was trying to say in my original part. I think sexuality should be a defined part of the characterization. For instance, romancing Zevran as a woman shouldn't make him straight. Being bi is part of who he is, and making him straight when you play as the opposite gender would cheapen the character. But that's just my opinion.

[chex mix]

highcastle wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Perles75 wrote...

I frankly don't think that leaving the sexuality of a companion "fluid" (that is, making it depending on the sex of the Hawke) makes the characters less defined. After all it's only an aspect of the personality.
For example in DA:O, I could picture very well a gay Alistair without changing too much of his personality. The same goes with Morrigan. The character baseline can stay the same and, after all, each game is different so there wouldn't be such a big contradiction.
And besides, a true bisexuality is not easy to deliver; with Zevran they made a good job but I don't know how much they can reiterate without making it appear as a trick to allow same-sex relationships and simultaneously avoiding the "gay thing".

This setup (the "fluid" sexuality I mean) would have the not-negligible advantage of increasing a lot the romancing possibilities.

Being straight, being bisexual, or being gay is more than just personality. Media stereotypes of camp gay or BFF gay or what have you are the unfortunate showcase. At the same time, I think it's important to set their sexuality. A lot of people who don't pursue Zevran's romance for some reason assume that he never mentions the fact he's bisexual, which plain isn't true. People get offended, act like its being swept under the rug.

All-in-all, it depends on personality. Zevran was very open--so why should he hide it? Leliana was more cautious, and pretty much plays games with a female Warden to try and judge if she's interested or not. She doesn't hide that she was interested in women, but she's more subtle about it and her attraction to the Warden. If Isabela is the s/s option for women, she has no reason to hide it, either.

That's pretty much what I was trying to say in my original part. I think sexuality should be a defined part of the characterization. For instance, romancing Zevran as a woman shouldn't make him straight. Being bi is part of who he is, and making him straight when you play as the opposite gender would cheapen the character. But that's just my opinion.

I dated a bi girl awhile back and she told me about this. like just because she dates a man doesnt make her straight, like dating a girl doesnt make her a homosexual. 

I mean to me it was obvious Lel and Zev were bi when they were in straight romances.  Zev tells the female if sleeping with other men offends her.

[Jimmy Fury]

highcastle wrote...
That's pretty much what I was trying to say in my original part. I think sexuality should be a defined part of the characterization. For instance, romancing Zevran as a woman shouldn't make him straight. Being bi is part of who he is, and making him straight when you play as the opposite gender would cheapen the character. But that's just my opinion.

I would agree if the character in question flat out said "I'm straight" or "I'm gay" depending on the sex of the PC.

But, if the character never says either and the only indiciation of his sexuality is that he's attracted to Hawke, then I don't see how it's cheap at all.
Yes, Zev specifically pointed out that he was bisexual. That doesn't mean every LI needs to do the same.

Take Alistair for example. Most of his dialogue is gender neutral. If those few stray gender-specific lines were altered just enough to make them gender neutral, there would be no specific declaration of a sexuality.
If instead of "I've never known a lady like you" (or whatever he says) it was "I've never known anyone like you" The line still means exactly the same thing, has the exact same impact, but can work no matter what sex the Warden is.

An LI written like that could not technically be called straight, gay, or bi.  He could, however, be considered any of the above depending on the opinion of the player.
The character is developed, deep, emotional, and has a full personality. It's a fully fleshed out, multidimensional character. It's not a cheap way out, nor does it sweep the issue of sexuality under the rug. It simply makes it a non-issue.

[highcastle]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

highcastle wrote...
That's pretty much what I was trying to say in my original part. I think sexuality should be a defined part of the characterization. For instance, romancing Zevran as a woman shouldn't make him straight. Being bi is part of who he is, and making him straight when you play as the opposite gender would cheapen the character. But that's just my opinion.

I would agree if the character in question flat out said "I'm straight" or "I'm gay" depending on the sex of the PC.

But, if the character never says either and the only indiciation of his sexuality is that he's attracted to Hawke, then I don't see how it's cheap at all.
Yes, Zev specifically pointed out that he was bisexual. That doesn't mean every LI needs to do the same.

Take Alistair for example. Most of his dialogue is gender neutral. If those few stray gender-specific lines were altered just enough to make them gender neutral, there would be no specific declaration of a sexuality.
If instead of "I've never known a lady like you" (or whatever he says) it was "I've never known anyone like you" The line still means exactly the same thing, has the exact same impact, but can work no matter what sex the Warden is.

An LI written like that could not technically be called straight, gay, or bi.  He could, however, be considered any of the above depending on the opinion of the player.
The character is developed, deep, emotional, and has a full personality. It's a fully fleshed out, multidimensional character. It's not a cheap way out, nor does it sweep the issue of sexuality under the rug. It simply makes it a non-issue.

We'll just have to agree to disagree here. Personally, I'd like for sexuality to be part of the character no matter what the PC's gender or orientation is. The character either is or isn't a romance option, just like in real life. Wishing someone's orientation is compatable with yours doesn't make it so. Unless they've invented real life mods. In which case I might want to look those up.

[Saibh]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

I would agree if the character in question flat out said "I'm straight" or "I'm gay" depending on the sex of the PC.

But, if the character never says either and the only indiciation of his sexuality is that he's attracted to Hawke, then I don't see how it's cheap at all.
Yes, Zev specifically pointed out that he was bisexual. That doesn't mean every LI needs to do the same.

Take Alistair for example. Most of his dialogue is gender neutral. If those few stray gender-specific lines were altered just enough to make them gender neutral, there would be no specific declaration of a sexuality.
If instead of "I've never known a lady like you" (or whatever he says) it was "I've never known anyone like you" The line still means exactly the same thing, has the exact same impact, but can work no matter what sex the Warden is.

An LI written like that could not technically be called straight, gay, or bi.  He could, however, be considered any of the above depending on the opinion of the player.
The character is developed, deep, emotional, and has a full personality. It's a fully fleshed out, multidimensional character. It's not a cheap way out, nor does it sweep the issue of sexuality under the rug. It simply makes it a non-issue.

But what you want is their dialogue to be ambiguous enough for anyone to be gay. As highcastle said, we'll have to agree to disagree. I think it'd be cheap--if they're romancable by both a female and male Hawke, they're bisexual. If their personality allows it, why should it be hidden? Sexuality is a part of their character.

A lot of gamers were happy that their PC was referenced as female when romancing Leliana, or male when romancing Zevran. It made them feel more real, the interactions more meaningful.

[Ryzaki]

I think s/he's talking more about he constant hammering of Zevran being bi. If you're female he keeps mentioning how he's attracted to men and vice versa.

Frankly I  actually did find the constant mentioning annoying. "dude we get it can we talk about something else now?" but eh.

...Or that was probably because everytime he talked about someone he was with they ended up dead and my PC got more and more uncomfortable.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 31 octobre 2010 - 08:11 .

[poweredbyzen]

i'd play "all" romances because i know

there'll be a trophy for this - and i'm such

a trophy-ho! hahaha!

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

I think s/he's talking more about he constant hammering of Zevran being bi. If you're female he keeps mentioning how he's attracted to men and vice versa.

Frankly I  actually did find the constant mentioning annoying. "dude we get it can we talk about something else now?" but eh.

...Or that was probably because everytime he talked about someone he was with they ended up dead and my PC got more and more uncomfortable.

He constantly hammered on it?  There was one conversation about it.  Hmmmm, ok, and one other story where he mentions a man as a mark.  That is hardly hammering on it constantly.  He may reference it in a very veiled way as well in one other conversation, and you have to ask him straight out.

Edit: Truthfully, Leliana comes off as a lot less open about her bisexuality to a female warden than she does to a male warden.  You hear about her true love, and you know she used seduction to trap men, but using seduction and actually being attracted to your marks are very different.

Modifié par ejoslin, 31 octobre 2010 - 09:15 .

[ErichHartmann]

poweredbyzen wrote...

i'd play "all" romances because i know
there'll be a trophy for this - and i'm such
a trophy-ho! hahaha!

Not me.  I refuse to romance Alistair and Zevran simply because their personalities annoy me.  

[Saibh]

ejoslin wrote..

He constantly hammered on it?  There was one conversation about it.  Hmmmm, ok, and one other story where he mentions a man as a mark.  That is hardly hammering on it constantly.

Edit: Truthfully, Leliana comes off as a lot less open about her bisexuality to a female warden than she does to a male warden.  You hear about her true love, and you know she used seduction to trap men, but using seduction and actually being attracted to your marks are very different.

I agree. There are mentions here and there, but its his sexual...ness that gets hammered in, not his sexuality.

Also, a lot of people feel like Leliana is more interested in women than men--almost all of the encounters she mentions are with women. She actually never mentions any attraction to men, IIRC.

[Herr Uhl]

ejoslin wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I think s/he's talking more about he constant hammering of Zevran being bi. If you're female he keeps mentioning how he's attracted to men and vice versa.

Frankly I  actually did find the constant mentioning annoying. "dude we get it can we talk about something else now?" but eh.

...Or that was probably because everytime he talked about someone he was with they ended up dead and my PC got more and more uncomfortable.

He constantly hammered on it?  There was one conversation about it.  Hmmmm, ok, and one other story where he mentions a man as a mark.  That is hardly hammering on it constantly.

Edit: Truthfully, Leliana comes off as a lot less open about her bisexuality to a female warden than she does to a male warden.  You hear about her true love, and you know she used seduction to trap men, but using seduction and actually being attracted to your marks are very different.

Yes, oddly both the bisexual romances seemed to prefer women to men. With men Zevran has the line "I prefer the soft curves of a woman, but I can also appreciate the hard body of a man" IIRC. Leliana has no preference talks, but having played it from both genders I got that impression from her too.

[Jimmy Fury]

Saibh wrote...
But what you want is their dialogue to be ambiguous enough for anyone to be gay. As highcastle said, we'll have to agree to disagree. I think it'd be cheap--if they're romancable by both a female and male Hawke, they're bisexual. If their personality allows it, why should it be hidden? Sexuality is a part of their character.

A lot of gamers were happy that their PC was referenced as female when romancing Leliana, or male when romancing Zevran. It made them feel more real, the interactions more meaningful.

I never said everyone. So no, that's not what I want. If we're talking about all companions or all romances then of course that would be as stupid as all of them being bisexual. I never said that though so I'm not sure where that assumption came from.
I was refering only to whichever character was already slated to be a s/s option other than Isabela.

[Ryzaki]

Herr Uhl wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I think s/he's talking more about he constant hammering of Zevran being bi. If you're female he keeps mentioning how he's attracted to men and vice versa.

Frankly I  actually did find the constant mentioning annoying. "dude we get it can we talk about something else now?" but eh.

...Or that was probably because everytime he talked about someone he was with they ended up dead and my PC got more and more uncomfortable.

He constantly hammered on it?  There was one conversation about it.  Hmmmm, ok, and one other story where he mentions a man as a mark.  That is hardly hammering on it constantly.

Edit: Truthfully, Leliana comes off as a lot less open about her bisexuality to a female warden than she does to a male warden.  You hear about her true love, and you know she used seduction to trap men, but using seduction and actually being attracted to your marks are very different.

Yes, oddly both the bisexual romances seemed to prefer women to men. With men Zevran has the line "I prefer the soft curves of a woman, but I can also appreciate the hard body of a man" IIRC. Leliana has no preference talks, but having played it from both genders I got that impression from her too.

The whole gender thing is what I meant.


And...you don't consider him constantly hitting on party members reagardless of gender to be hammering? I did.

Yeah I actually thought Leliana was just a s/s romance option at first. (It's ridculously difficult to initate her romance late as a male for some reason.) Or maybe it was just me.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 31 octobre 2010 - 09:40 .

[chex mix]

ejoslin wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I think s/he's talking more about he constant hammering of Zevran being bi. If you're female he keeps mentioning how he's attracted to men and vice versa.

Frankly I  actually did find the constant mentioning annoying. "dude we get it can we talk about something else now?" but eh.

...Or that was probably because everytime he talked about someone he was with they ended up dead and my PC got more and more uncomfortable.

He constantly hammered on it?  There was one conversation about it.  Hmmmm, ok, and one other story where he mentions a man as a mark.  That is hardly hammering on it constantly.  He may reference it in a very veiled way as well in one other conversation, and you have to ask him straight out.

Edit: Truthfully, Leliana comes off as a lot less open about her bisexuality to a female warden than she does to a male warden.  You hear about her true love, and you know she used seduction to trap men, but using seduction and actually being attracted to your marks are very different.

i didn't know she was bi until Marj.  I was male and she was acceptive of my flirting so I thought she was straight for half the playthrough.  She doesnt speak much about sleeping with men other then it was her prefered method and she loved exploiting them.  In the Morrigan/ Leliana triangle you can call Leliana a hypocrite for coming after you about Morrigan when she played with men. 

Now if Isabela is a bi option in DA2,( she is the advertised interest for males) it will be like Zevran.  she has a former husband ( who apparently didn't treat her that well, and had a tumble with Zevran) and gives hints to sleeping around with her crew.  What could cause some debate is whether the Isabela was willingly to bed the Warden for fun or because she was charmed they were a Grey Warden.  She flirts with a male Warden almost right away, but doesnt start to sound suggestive of anything until after the female Warden has asked her about being a duelist.  But I'm not going to judge Isabela from what I saw in the pearl, because a dev mentioned that they had no plans for Isabela when they put her in the pearl.

Modifié par chex mix, 31 octobre 2010 - 09:46 .

[chex mix]

Herr Uhl wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I think s/he's talking more about he constant hammering of Zevran being bi. If you're female he keeps mentioning how he's attracted to men and vice versa.

Frankly I  actually did find the constant mentioning annoying. "dude we get it can we talk about something else now?" but eh.

...Or that was probably because everytime he talked about someone he was with they ended up dead and my PC got more and more uncomfortable.

I got the vibe gender was more like hair color to Leliana, she might have a past with females, but she doesnt hesitate to date a male.  I felt it was all about love to Leliana. lol

He constantly hammered on it?  There was one conversation about it.  Hmmmm, ok, and one other story where he mentions a man as a mark.  That is hardly hammering on it constantly.

Edit: Truthfully, Leliana comes off as a lot less open about her bisexuality to a female warden than she does to a male warden.  You hear about her true love, and you know she used seduction to trap men, but using seduction and actually being attracted to your marks are very different.

Yes, oddly both the bisexual romances seemed to prefer women to men. With men Zevran has the line "I prefer the soft curves of a woman, but I can also appreciate the hard body of a man" IIRC. Leliana has no preference talks, but having played it from both genders I got that impression from her too.

[chex mix]

Herr Uhl wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I think s/he's talking more about he constant hammering of Zevran being bi. If you're female he keeps mentioning how he's attracted to men and vice versa.

Frankly I  actually did find the constant mentioning annoying. "dude we get it can we talk about something else now?" but eh.

...Or that was probably because everytime he talked about someone he was with they ended up dead and my PC got more and more uncomfortable.

He constantly hammered on it?  There was one conversation about it.  Hmmmm, ok, and one other story where he mentions a man as a mark.  That is hardly hammering on it constantly.

Edit: Truthfully, Leliana comes off as a lot less open about her bisexuality to a female warden than she does to a male warden.  You hear about her true love, and you know she used seduction to trap men, but using seduction and actually being attracted to your marks are very different.

Yes, oddly both the bisexual romances seemed to prefer women to men. With men Zevran has the line "I prefer the soft curves of a woman, but I can also appreciate the hard body of a man" IIRC. Leliana has no preference talks, but having played it from both genders I got that impression from her too.

I got the vibe gender was more like hair color to Leliana, she might have had a past with a female, but she doesnt hesitate to date a male, the male romance actually starts before the female.  I felt it was all about love to Leliana, with those constant stories. lol

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

And...you don't consider him constantly hitting on party members reagardless of gender to be hammering? I did.

Yeah I actually thought Leliana was just a s/s romance option at first. (It's ridculously difficult to initate her romance late as a male for some reason.) Or maybe it was just me.

He made one comment about Alistair hopping boarders which went right over his head.  He made a joke to Oghren as well, saying if he wanted to bed him, all he had to do was ask, which was clearly a joke.  That's it.  So yeh, I don't consider that hammering on being bisexual, which is what you said.

Leliana is not that difficult to start as a romance as a male, but it can bug out if you raise her approval too quickly.  All you have to do is complement her, or ask her if her fruit is forbidden (funniest romance starting line ever!).

Modifié par ejoslin, 31 octobre 2010 - 09:48 .

[Saibh]

chex mix wrote...

Now if Isabela is a bi option in DA2, it will be like Zevran.  she has a former husband ( who apparently didn't treat her that well, and had a tumble with Zevran) and gives hints to sleeping around with her crew.  What could cause some debate is whether the Isabela was willingly to bed the Warden for fun or because she was charmed they were a Grey Warden.  She flirts with a male Warden almost right away, but doesnt start to sound suggestive of anything until after the female Warden has asked her about being a duelist.  But I'm not going to judge Isabela from what I saw in the pearl, because a dev mentioned that they had no plans for Isabela when they put her in the pearl.

Being flirty and openly sexual doesn't mean you have identical characters. I do agree, though, they walk a fine line. Also, again: Isabela flirts just as much with a female Warden--I think the only difference is the opening line, where she'll either flirt with a male Warden or simply acknowledge a female Warden's strength as a woman. That's not really her hiding her sexuality at all.

Honestly, if they're going to rewrite her entire personality, and her voice, and her appearance it seems utterly pointless to keep her on as the same character--more detrimental than anything else.

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And...you don't consider him constantly hitting on party members reagardless of gender to be hammering? I did.

Yeah I actually thought Leliana was just a s/s romance option at first. (It's ridculously difficult to initate her romance late as a male for some reason.) Or maybe it was just me.

He made one comment about Alistair hopping boarders which went right over his head.  He made a joke to Oghren as well, saying if he wanted to bed him, all he had to do was ask, which was clearly a joke.  That's it.  So yeh, I don't consider that hammering on being bisexual, which is what you said.

Leliana is not that difficult to start as a romance as a male, but it can bug out if you raise her approval too quickly.  All you have to do is complement her, or ask her if her fruit is forbidden.

Personal preference I suppose. I found the hitting on nearly every party member to get tiresome. You forgot about Leliana, Wynne and Morrigan?

...He doesn't hit on Sten does he? I don't believe so.

Ah. I missed those. I did romance her approval by gift spamming so that's probably the problem.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 31 octobre 2010 - 09:50 .

[chex mix]

ejoslin wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And...you don't consider him constantly hitting on party members reagardless of gender to be hammering? I did.

Yeah I actually thought Leliana was just a s/s romance option at first. (It's ridculously difficult to initate her romance late as a male for some reason.) Or maybe it was just me.

He made one comment about Alistair hopping boarders which went right over his head.  He made a joke to Oghren as well, saying if he wanted to bed him, all he had to do was ask, which was clearly a joke.  That's it.  So yeh, I don't consider that hammering on being bisexual, which is what you said.

Leliana is not that difficult to start as a romance as a male, but it can bug out if you raise her approval too quickly.  All you have to do is complement her, or ask her if her fruit is forbidden (funniest romance starting line ever!).

lol oghren tell him "good luck with that" being with the male