2001 réponses à ce sujet

[ok go]

im all for m/m for people who are into that sort of thing, but when you start call people homophobes your prolly not going to get your way.

[ErichHartmann]

My short opinion,



While I fully support LGBT characters I also believe writers shouldn't feel pressured to impose sexuality for the sake of it. As long as orientation is backed by the character's (NPCs) background/history then great. Our character though should have free reign. Even Male Shep since we can develop his personality through the paragon/renegade system. /rambling

[ScotGaymer]

Sorry but it doesnt make any more sense.



And I still dont understand. God I feel really blonde lol.

[Russalka]

How about we all degenerate into image spam of our crooked ideals to have as a romance? It keeps the other threads alive. Hm, sounds trollish.

But I still think that Dragon Age 2 has options for everyone. I do not know if I would mind the lack of a bisexual love interest or not, if the unlikely happens. Would only be offended if something screams cheap fan service.

Modifié par Russalka, 18 novembre 2010 - 04:41 .

[David Gaider]

FitScotGaymer wrote...
Given that and given that DA2 seems to be following more the ME model - ive heard some people call DA2 Dragon Effect in a sarcastic and condescending manner - its not entirely unreasonable that those of us who are gay and are fans of Bioware are worried that we might suddenly find ourselves excluded by a company we have always had the utmost respect and love for. After all they did it with ME.

We haven't said what we're doing for romances at all yet, I think. I'm also not sure that the ME team has ever said what their reasoning is behind their choices, either-- whatever it is, I'm certainly not privy to it.

I would say, however, that I can't fault them for what they did.

Consider this development dilemma: if part of the enjoyment of players in RPG's is having choices, is it better to offer more choices to most players or fewer choices to all players? ME2 clearly took the "more choices to most players" approach-- most players have three romance options. DAO took the "fewer choices to all players" approach-- the players had two options... or one, which isn't really a choice.

Which is better? For the gay players, some of them weren't happy at their lack of a choice either. For the straight players, some of them would have been much happier to have more choices than they had. We're never going to be able to make everyone happy, obviously, and while this particular issue goes a bit beyond content (and ventures into social issues, and therefore uncomfortable territory that some teams would simply rather not go into) for a development team the primary concern is about content and how it's best to create and use in a game where every player needs it. Nobody has a "right" to content, but we need to figure out how to spread it out and I say there are no easy answers.

Of course I recognise that an awful lot of work goes into the romances - i wasnt comparing the FNV characters to DAO characters. They just dont compare. My point was more the fact that exclusively gay people were there, seen and acknowledged and not ignored or swept aside or dressed up as "bisexual" even if the interactions with them dont quite come up to the professionalism of Bioware's NPCs.

And my point is that it wasn't about ignoring or sweeping aside anything. Speaking from a content point of view, it's easier to provide content for a small audience when it's cheaper. I'd love to do a gay-only romance-- but considering how expensive our romances are it would either need to a shorter/less expensive romance or we'd have to be okay with having that much content for a small audience (and "small" here is by degrees, and has nothing in relation to "insignificant") which is exclusive to that audience.

And that's as tough a decision to make as it would be to exclude that audience entirely. These are not easy choices to make, and I think it's over-simplifying it to forget about the costs and think only about the emotional issues behind them-- if only it were that easy.

I am not complaining about having bisexual characters - id rather have a well written deep and engaging bi character than a shallow boring gay character or none at all of course - but it would be nice if we could have a chracter who was exclusively gay and exclusively a lesbian. Really really nice. Just so that we could feel more included, so we can more properly express who and what we are through the medium we enjoy like the straight fans of Bioware get to do.

I understand. The fact that something might be nice, however, doesn't mean it's something we can easily do-- or that us not doing it means that we have ulterior motives. Consider that.

Modifié par David Gaider, 18 novembre 2010 - 04:46 .

[Shepard Lives]

ok go wrote...

im all for m/m for people who are into that sort of thing, but when you start call people homophobes your prolly not going to get your way.

I don't know what your stance is. But, academically, a person who dislikes homosexuals is a homophobe. If one opposes a M/M option on the grounds that they dislike homosexuals, they are a homophobe.

But let's not allow this thread to degenerate, I rather like how long it managed to survive. If you want to discuss this further, message me.

[ScotGaymer]

David Gaider wrote...

We haven't said what we're doing for romances at all yet, I think. I'm also not sure that the ME team has ever said what their reasoning is behind their choices, either-- whatever it is, I'm certainly not privy to it.

I would say, however, that I can't fault them for what they did.

Consider this development dilemma: if part of the enjoyment of players in RPG's is having choices, is it better to offer more choices to most players or fewer choices to all players? ME2 clearly took the "more choices to most players" approach-- most players have three romance options. DAO took the "fewer choices to all players" approach-- the players had two options... or one, which isn't really a choice.

Which is better? For the gay players, some of them weren't happy at their lack of a choice either. For the straight players, some of them would have been much happier to have more choices than they had. We're never going to be able to make everyone happy, obviously, and while this particular issue goes a bit beyond content (and ventures into social issues, and therefore uncomfortable territory that some teams would simply rather not go into) for a development team the primary concern is about content and how it's best to create and use in a game where every player needs it. Nobody has a "right" to content, but we need to figure out how to spread it out and I say there are no easy answers.


And my point is that it wasn't about ignoring or sweeping aside anything. Speaking from a content point of view, it's easier to provide content for a small audience when it's cheaper. I'd love to do a gay-only romance-- but considering how expensive our romances are it would either need to a shorter/less expensive romance or we'd have to be okay with having that much content for a small audience (and "small" here is by degrees, and has nothing in relation to "insignificant") which is exclusive to that audience.

And that's as tough a decision to make as it would be to exclude that audience entirely. These are not easy choices to make, and I think it's over-simplifying it to forget about the costs and think only about the emotional issues behind them-- if only it were that easy.


I understand. The fact that something might be nice, however, doesn't mean it's something we can easily do-- or that us not doing it means that we have ulterior motives. Consider that.

No absolutely.

I apologise again if it seemed like I was insinuating that there was some sort of ulterior motive at least with the DA team. I highly doubt there is. And to a lesser extent I felt that ME was the same.

As I said I would much rather have 6 well written, deep, engaging, fun NPCs that I actually come to care about than 12 NPCs that were shallow, vapid, boring, and I couldnt care less about. This is where I felt that Dragon Age Origins won in terms of NPC interaction and romance. Less NPC Companions, Less Romances. More time and money to make each of them really really engaging.
Mass Effect 2's romances I avoided like the plague because I felt they were hamfisted, shallow, and boring. As MaleShep the females of the ship all flung themselves at you and the same was true for FemShep with the blokes.
The characters I liked most in ME2 were Mordin, Zaeed, Grunt, Kasumi, Legion, and Samara. Why? Because they didnt have romances so there was more time to develop them as characters and thus I got to care about them. With the others there was as you said only so much time and effort that could go into romances and interaction and with the result I felt that the ME2 team overreached themselves and the result was interactions with the romancable NPCs didnt feel right and that the balance between the various factors that needed to be taken into account didnt come out correctly and with that we had interactions with the romance NPCs that were less than compelling and wholly unsatisfying. At least as far as I am concerned.

I much much preferred DAOs approach. And given its the same team I feel fairly safe in the knowledge that they will hopefully get the balance between all the factors right.

I do hope that you guys have the time and money to be able to be a little more inclusive in terms of interactions and romances - in terms of giving us a Lesbian and Gay NPC - its not the end of the world if you dont. But just because you havent had the time or money in the past doesnt mean you wont this time round too. And it doesnt mean that we cant ask for an exclusively gay character too.

Thanks for replying to me David.

[dgcatanisiri]

Mass Effect 2's romances I avoided like the plague because I felt they were hamfisted, shallow, and boring. As MaleShep the females of the ship all flung themselves at you and the same was true for FemShep with the blokes.
The characters I liked most in ME2 were Mordin, Zaeed, Grunt, Kasumi, Legion, and Samara. Why? Because they didnt have romances so there was more time to develop them as characters and thus I got to care about them. 

Now this, I very much agree. In Jade Empire, it irritated me so much that Dawn Star's interactions with a male PC almost immediately become 'can you comfort me?' while with a female PC, she gave anecdotes about their past and deepened their friendship. I hate seeing the romance dominate the character's development, because without that fact, what is there to the character? I mostly play my games with a male PC - I'm male, I can get in my character's head better with that as a starting point. I try out the female PCs on occasion, but I will usually stick with male, and in the case of Dawn Star, that locks me out of a good portion of her development as a character and I'm stuck with her development as a love interest. A love interest that, and I realize I'm ranting here, I usually consider more like my character's sister than a real love interest.

As for the ME2 relationships, the only ones I saw having a chance of being more than a 'warm bed' or 'rebound' situation were the Garrus and Tali ones, based solely on Shepard's previous experiences with them. But none of them I could really picture going the distance, for similar reasons, though with them, the conversations just cut off if you're not romancing them. I know there's only so much time for everything, but I really felt like there were too many party members to give every romancable character a satisfactory conclusion to their development that didn't tie into their romancability.

And while I also would like to see an exclusively gay companion instead of a bi one, I fully understand that you've got to balance character development with the story. I want a good story more than I want to be able to have well developed and deep meaningful relationships with every member of my party. I DO have fanfiction for the romances I can't actually have. I just mention my hopes for the game here, but I trust that I will be overall satisfied with what comes out based on my past experiences with BioWare games.

[maxernst]

My issue with the ME romances was that, especially in Mass Effect 1 where you're in the Alliance military, they seemed unethical and inappropriate. My male Shepard was gay (as far as I was concerned) and thought Joker was adorable, but even if Joker had shown an interest, he was not going to have a relationship with someone under his command.

[Maria Caliban]

Elite Midget wrote...

If Bioware is going to make a Gay option than that Gay option shouldn't just be a Bi one as well while keeping Straight options as only Straight. If they aren't willing to put effort for those that want a legit Gay only option, just like the Straight only option, than why bother throwing them a mangled bone when all they have to do is turn and face to the side to see that Straight Gamers get a steak?

You see, I resent the idea that a bisexual love interest isn't a 'legit' same-sex option and it's bordering on offensive to call bisexual love interests mangled bones.

It's one thing to want gay representation in a game. That doesn't need to be done with love interests. It makes perfect sense for a gay gamer to want their PC to share their sexuality, and BioWare is one of the few companies that lets you do this.

However, the idea that if a Zevran is attracted to females that gay male players have gotten 'less' somehow is ridiculous.

[highcastle]

David Gaider wrote...

Consider this development dilemma: if part of the enjoyment of players in RPG's is having choices, is it better to offer more choices to most players or fewer choices to all players? ME2 clearly took the "more choices to most players" approach-- most players have three romance options. DAO took the "fewer choices to all players" approach-- the players had two options... or one, which isn't really a choice.

Which is better? For the gay players, some of them weren't happy at their lack of a choice either. For the straight players, some of them would have been much happier to have more choices than they had. We're never going to be able to make everyone happy, obviously, and while this particular issue goes a bit beyond content (and ventures into social issues, and therefore uncomfortable territory that some teams would simply rather not go into) for a development team the primary concern is about content and how it's best to create and use in a game where every player needs it. Nobody has a "right" to content, but we need to figure out how to spread it out and I say there are no easy answers.

I'm getting the sinking feeling that same sex romances might be out. Now, I know it's too early for anything to be confirmed (considering they've only revealed a handful of companions and haven't said a thing when it comes to romances), but I just wanted to point out that the "fewer choices to all" approach that Origins took was one of my favorite things about the game. When I played ME, there was no one for my gay Shep to romance. My Warden in Origins had Zevran. It might've only been one option, but it was there, I felt included, and I appreciated it.

[Blacklash93]

This is going to sound rude, but man, being a minority demographic must suck. Being told that catering to you will end up interfering with what the majority will want every time you make a request would be a tough to swallow. It would be true, but I still wouldn't want to hear it.

As for the Mass Effect issue, Bioware pulled out the term "predefined" like it was the word of the day when people started asking about gay romances. They act like Shepard is completely different from your typical RPG PC when he'll never say anything other than a badass quip without your say-so. They just made a poor excuse.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 19 novembre 2010 - 04:15 .

[Ryzaki]

...Okay no s/s romances will be the straw that broke the camel's back (for me personally) in regards to DA2. The camera's gone, wearing the same outfit for who knows how long is in, there's a voiced pc....

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 novembre 2010 - 04:35 .

[Dhiro]

Well... I hope there's a s/s romance. If there isn't then I guess I would be disappointed, but life goes on. Still, it would be really nice *sigh*

[Saibh]

highcastle wrote...

I'm getting the sinking feeling that same sex romances might be out. Now, I know it's too early for anything to be confirmed (considering they've only revealed a handful of companions and haven't said a thing when it comes to romances), but I just wanted to point out that the "fewer choices to all" approach that Origins took was one of my favorite things about the game. When I played ME, there was no one for my gay Shep to romance. My Warden in Origins had Zevran. It might've only been one option, but it was there, I felt included, and I appreciated it.

Zevran was not announced as a gay option until very close to release despite his character being confirmed long before then, so I'd keep that in mind.

[Maria Caliban]

Saibh wrote...

Zevran was not announced as a gay option until very close to release despite his character being confirmed long before then, so I'd keep that in mind.

Actually, Zevran was never announced as a gay option. People found out because we managed to find the romance page on the DA guide website. The same way people found out the 'secret companion' for DA:O before the game launched.

[RosaAquafire]

Maria Caliban wrote...

You see, I resent the idea that a bisexual love interest isn't a 'legit' same-sex option and it's bordering on offensive to call bisexual love interests mangled bones.

It's one thing to want gay representation in a game. That doesn't need to be done with love interests. It makes perfect sense for a gay gamer to want their PC to share their sexuality, and BioWare is one of the few companies that lets you do this.

However, the idea that if a Zevran is attracted to females that gay male players have gotten 'less' somehow is ridiculous.

I COMPLETELY agree with this.

Yes, an excluisely gay romance would be nice. Yes, it would feel more inclusive. Yes, it would be a statement about how regardless of price, Bioware wants to help gay players feel involved (though I know this is not economically feasible right now.) But there is NOTHING wrong with bisexuals, and they are NOT somehow less than homosexuals.

As a bisexual woman, I'm so tired of seeing this implication everywhere! The "Bisexuals Don't Exist" trope isn't just in fiction, it's in real life.

I really understand why gay men and women want to feel included and relevant and not given sloppy seconds, really, I do. But I thought that the male Zevran romance was as good as the female -- and the female Leliana romance was BETTER than the male. They're not worse or less because of what they are, and please realize that calling bisexuals somehow inferiour makes those of us who profess that sexuality feel very, very bad about ourselves.

[ok go]

actually im happy that LI's are bisexual. i think they are misrepresented, its either you have to be straight or gay. thats not cool.

[Saibh]

ok go wrote...

actually im happy that LI's are bisexual. i think they are misrepresented, its either you have to be straight or gay. thats not cool.

But that's not true of BioWare games. The inverse that can be argued is that its either straight or bi, and gay is not cool, so...

It's not that I'm offended at BioWare's choice, I'm just saying, I see where some people are coming from.

[ok go]

my personal opinion (being straight, so dont take my opinion seriously) it would be nice to see a s/s romance for people who like that thing, but dont denounce bisexuality like it doesnt exist.



think about it this way, straights might be upset at the bi option being into the same sex, as gays might be upset they are into the opposite sex.

[Maria Caliban]

Saibh wrote...

But that's not true of BioWare games. The inverse that can be argued is that its either straight or bi, and gay is not cool, so...

It's not that I'm offended at BioWare's choice, I'm just saying, I see where some people are coming from.

In my experience, in most mainstream media, women who are exclusively attracted to other women don't exist. I am sure many here are familiar with the sweeps weeks phenomenon where a primarily heterosexual woman will kiss another woman in order to grab ratings. Or the idea that women show interest in other women simply to please men who might be looking on.

Would I appreciate it if BioWare had a romantic interest who was only interested in their own gender? Yes.

Does this mean that I don't value the same-sex romances we've already had? Not at all.

To me, there's a very clear line between indicating that you desire a gay NPC LI and indicating that bisexual NPCs are inferior love interests. Moreover, it's an important line, because the idea that bisexuality isn't equal to hetero- or homosexuality is one you can find queer community.

[dgcatanisiri]

I have nothing against the bisexual options - in a couple of cases, I see them as preferable over the hetero options. But none of them have been fully gay options, as in you can ONLY romance them if you are of the same gender. I can easily see some people taking that as 'if you like the opposite or both, you're good but you can't like only the same.'

It's fully taking the wrong thing away from the whole thing, of course, but I can understand how people could come to that conclusion.

As much as I want a character who is only romancible by someone of the same sex, I realize that between development time and real world social issues, it might be asking a bit too much at the moment. But it's not going to stop me from wanting such a thing, nor saying that 'I hope x happens in game y.' But if my hopes are dashed, as long as I'm satisfied with the game itself, I'll be happy.

It's just that if asked for what I want, I will say that I want a romance solely for same-sex characters. I like being represented in my games.

[GodWood]

Minus the existence of the male Warden and basically all evidence will point to Leliana being fully lesbian.

[Ryzaki]

GodWood wrote...

Minus the existence of the male Warden and basically all evidence will point to Leliana being fully lesbian.

Not really. Doesn't she speak of seducing men quite often? And she sounds like she enjoyed it.

[Maria Caliban]

GodWood wrote...

Minus the existence of the male Warden and basically all evidence will point to Leliana being fully lesbian.

Leliana struck me as being bisexual but with a stronger emotional attachment to women. Someone needs to mail her a SOG so we can get to the bottom of this.