2001 réponses à ce sujet

[Saibh]

pallascedar wrote...

I know this holds really no sway, it's a fantasy world after-all, why bring reality into it? But I'm going to do it anyways. But, as Kinsey hypothesizes, a vast majority of people are bisexual, with maybe a preference one way or the other. Very few people are completely heterosexual, fewer are completely homosexual. With 7 or 8 companions, the likelihood of you encountering a bisexual is much higher than there being somebody who is completely homosexual, right? It's also frustrating to me to see people complaining about bisexual romances, because it reflects a prejudice that we as a culture, both homosexuals and heterosexuals, have towards bisexual people. Just because somebody is sexually attracted to women too, doesn't mean their relationship with men is going to be any less meaningful.

That aside, more people in the game like Wade and Herren would be fun (there were other characters who I was like "They're probably gay" but I forgot). The only real complaint (complaint is the wrong word, I don't really need to complain about anything, the game is great, the romances are great, the writing is great) is that while there are Gay romance options (large stuff), which is awesome, there aren't as many gay options in the smaller things, that seem like they would be easier. (Random example, a female Dalish Warden can imply romantic history between her and Tamlen, whereas a male Warden can't....not that it matters, my male warden had a romantic history with Tamlen, whether or not the game knew it) Just random small stuff, but it doesn't really matter, I'm no writer, for all I know the random small stuff is lots of work too.

I understand where you're coming from, but claiming the vast majority of people are bisexual is frankly ridiculous. No one, and I mean no one, can prove that a great percentage of people are hiding their sexuality. Besides that, finding the same gender attractive is not the same thing as being willing to date the opposite gender or pursue them romantically. And I think you can't argue that most people are willing to date others of their sex.

I also have a burning hatred for the "It's a fantasy, you should be able to break everyone's Suspension of Disbelief!" argument. I've used this counterpoint several times, but things like magic and dragons don't exist in the real world. There's no basis of comparison, so we allow those things to slide past our disbelief censors. Things like sexuality are a quantifiable measurement. The majority of your companions being bisexual stretches the audience's ability to believe in the authenticity of this fictional world.

Tamlen showing an interest in the Dalish elf excludes heterosexual males, does it not? They simply had the option for your best friend, if you are female, to show an interest in you. It's not a punishment for anyone, it's not leaving people out deliberately. It's what they chose to do. They chose to make the character straight.

That said, I'm all for gender-exclusive side romances, being that the resources don't allow gender-exclusive main romances. I think it wouldn't hurt at all for a character similar to how Teagan was treated, to be gay or a lesbian. It's just a few lines, and it helps roleplaying immensely.

Modifié par Saibh, 02 janvier 2011 - 12:18 .

[Bryy_Miller]

LiquidGrape wrote...

Q: Concerning the romances and love interest, are all the followers subject to this if I take in account the two genders of Hawke?

A: Not every follower is interested romantically in Hawke, though there are options for players of all genders and orientations.

That could work as both a serious post and as a troll post to everyone that doesn't want gays in their games.

[Tietj]

I agree, although it's off-topic, with your position that most people are not bisexual and hiding it (from themselves, I'm assuming is the implication), but it's also true that truly bisexual people (of which I have met very few) are sometimes marginalized by both groups. And it doesn't help that a huge number of men go through a stage where they claim to be bisexual before switching to exclusively homosexual. In my own experience, women tend to go in the opposite direction--I've met way more LUGs than I have bisexuals.



Back on topic, I completely understand the developers' point of view about the practicality of having a bisexual LI instead of an exclusively gay one; that said, I would much prefer a m/m LI to be gay than bi. I didn't have a problem with Zevran being interested in both men and women but it did kind of bug me that he went out of his way several times to say that he preferred women. You have to wonder what the thought process was behind that; it's not as though narrow-minded straight guys were going to be playing through the m/m romance and feel any better about it because Zev is 80% heterosexual instead of 50%. I guess it's just the character that was envisioned, which is fine in the end; the fact that s/s romances were included at all is a reason to be grateful to the writers and I really was grateful, and I'm grateful that they're included in this game even if it turns out that the bi LI is only "Hawkesexual" (although I would probably never play through such a romance because I have such a personal issue with it, having never met someone outside of fanfiction who is only gay for one person. I would simply choose to be a female Hawke).



In any case, I would prefer a warrior--someone masculine but not over-the-top masculine like Sten or Oghren. Someone who was struggling with his sexuality or had had issues with people not being accepting in the past would be great as well. Human greatly preferred, or, failing that, elven--no dwarves or qunari.

[Ninja Mage]

Wasn't Nathaniel Bi in Awakening...he seemed like he wanted to sleep with Oghren

[Eudaemonium]

Ninja Mage wrote...

Wasn't Nathaniel Bi in Awakening...he seemed like he wanted to sleep with Oghren

Everyone wants to sleep with Oghren. Besides, its pronounced Aahhhh-ghren.

Seriously though, I assumed Nate was just playin' with him, but regardless I would welcome a bi Nate LI. Heck, I'd welcome a Nate in general. We already have 2 rogues though, so he might just be temp. We might be able to give him a little send-off tho

[DaySeeker]

I thought Nate could be gay. He seemed eager to impress, and often said, "Does this please you?"

[pallascedar]

Saibh wrote...

pallascedar wrote...

I know this holds really no sway, it's a fantasy world after-all, why bring reality into it? But I'm going to do it anyways. But, as Kinsey hypothesizes, a vast majority of people are bisexual, with maybe a preference one way or the other. Very few people are completely heterosexual, fewer are completely homosexual. With 7 or 8 companions, the likelihood of you encountering a bisexual is much higher than there being somebody who is completely homosexual, right? It's also frustrating to me to see people complaining about bisexual romances, because it reflects a prejudice that we as a culture, both homosexuals and heterosexuals, have towards bisexual people. Just because somebody is sexually attracted to women too, doesn't mean their relationship with men is going to be any less meaningful.

That aside, more people in the game like Wade and Herren would be fun (there were other characters who I was like "They're probably gay" but I forgot). The only real complaint (complaint is the wrong word, I don't really need to complain about anything, the game is great, the romances are great, the writing is great) is that while there are Gay romance options (large stuff), which is awesome, there aren't as many gay options in the smaller things, that seem like they would be easier. (Random example, a female Dalish Warden can imply romantic history between her and Tamlen, whereas a male Warden can't....not that it matters, my male warden had a romantic history with Tamlen, whether or not the game knew it) Just random small stuff, but it doesn't really matter, I'm no writer, for all I know the random small stuff is lots of work too.

I understand where you're coming from, but claiming the vast majority of people are bisexual is frankly ridiculous. No one, and I mean no one, can prove that a great percentage of people are hiding their sexuality. Besides that, finding the same gender attractive is not the same thing as being willing to date the opposite gender or pursue them romantically. And I think you can't argue that most people are willing to date others of their sex.

I also have a burning hatred for the "It's a fantasy, you should be able to break everyone's Suspension of Disbelief!" argument. I've used this counterpoint several times, but things like magic and dragons don't exist in the real world. There's no basis of comparison, so we allow those things to slide past our disbelief censors. Things like sexuality are a quantifiable measurement. The majority of your companions being bisexual stretches the audience's ability to believe in the authenticity of this fictional world.

Tamlen showing an interest in the Dalish elf excludes heterosexual males, does it not? They simply had the option for your best friend, if you are female, to show an interest in you. It's not a punishment for anyone, it's not leaving people out deliberately. It's what they chose to do. They chose to make the character straight.

That said, I'm all for gender-exclusive side romances, being that the resources don't allow gender-exclusive main romances. I think it wouldn't hurt at all for a character similar to how Teagan was treated, to be gay or a lesbian. It's just a few lines, and it helps roleplaying immensely.

Take the bisexuality issue up with Kinsey, not me. He has a great deal of credibility, and I guess I didn't phrase it right, he isn't saying that everyone is bisexual, he just claims that very few people are completely heterosexual, just as very few people are completely homosexual . Basically, I was pointing out why bisexual companions made more sense that homosexual companions if we wanted to be completely crazy about it.

Anywho, my understanding with the Tamlen thing is that a certain dialogue choice with the keeper will end up with ghoul Tamlen confessing he loved a female warden. Heterosexual males, and female wardens not interested in having ghoul Tamlen proclaim that he used to love her needn't follow that line of dialogue.  Just little things like that, where a change would be seemingly easy, origin type things more than actual things happening in the current plot line. I'm not very good at being clear.

[Cobrawar]

wow this thread is just tons of fun to read

[Atakuma]

Cobrawar wrote...

wow this thread is just tons of fun to read

I'm so glad your'e enjoying yourself.

[Tietj]

pallascedar wrote...
Take the bisexuality issue up with Kinsey, not me. He has a great deal of credibility, and I guess I didn't phrase it right, he isn't saying that everyone is bisexual, he just claims that very few people are completely heterosexual, just as very few people are completely homosexual . Basically, I was pointing out why bisexual companions made more sense that homosexual companions if we wanted to be completely crazy about it.

Yeah, I know what you're saying, but I think in most people's experience, this is not really the case.  Also, logically, if you're saying that bisexual companions make more sense than homosexual ones, they would also make more sense than heterosexual ones, so really EVERYONE should be written as bisexual.  And that's not going to happen, nor, I think, does anyone want that to happen.  Only having heterosexual and bisexual companions may make more sense from a developer's standpoint, for the reasons that David Gaider stated (which I accept), but not because of anything to do with Kinsey. 

Anyway, it's not too important that the LI be completely gay (although I would prefer it); what would really be great is having dialogue options for Hawke in which he or she can express non-interest in the opposite sex.

[dan4354]

If you define bi as preferring both sexes equally then most people are not bi. They should give a bi companion because if he likes women more then men he would probably end up with a woman.

[Ryzaki]

If bi is defined as preferring both sexes equally a couple of people that told me they're bi apparently aren't...

Modifié par Ryzaki, 02 janvier 2011 - 01:31 .

[dgcatanisiri]

Tietj wrote...
Anyway, it's not too important that the LI be completely gay (although I would prefer it); what would really be great is having dialogue options for Hawke in which he or she can express non-interest in the opposite sex.

I'll agree with this idea. If I'm playing a Hawke who is solely gay (which, when I have the option to romance a male character, is usually how I play), I don't want him to give flirtatious lines to the female characters he interacts with.

Even if there can't be a solely gay love interest, I would like to see some side gay characters. Just men who make mention of how they 'drive the boys crazy' or something or that their husband is waiting at home for them (and the same for women as well) and things along that line, rather than being stereotypical like Wade and Herren. And maybe a matchmaking sidequest, like there was with Cammen and Gheyna and Ai Ling and the bachelors in Jade Empire, that gives the option of pairing up two people of the same sex (this would be a useful measure of showing the passage of time, actually). Just little acknowledgment that Hawke isn't the only gay person in the game.

Also, if the prologue allows, maybe a side-romance like Dairren/Iona option at the beginning or even pre-romance, just as a way of 'setting' the character's sexuality so that the game knows not to give the 'flirts-with-women' stuff.

[Tietj]

dgcatanisiri wrote...

Tietj wrote...
Anyway, it's not too important that the LI be completely gay (although I would prefer it); what would really be great is having dialogue options for Hawke in which he or she can express non-interest in the opposite sex.

I'll agree with this idea. If I'm playing a Hawke who is solely gay (which, when I have the option to romance a male character, is usually how I play), I don't want him to give flirtatious lines to the female characters he interacts with.

Even if there can't be a solely gay love interest, I would like to see some side gay characters. Just men who make mention of how they 'drive the boys crazy' or something or that their husband is waiting at home for them (and the same for women as well) and things along that line, rather than being stereotypical like Wade and Herren. And maybe a matchmaking sidequest, like there was with Cammen and Gheyna and Ai Ling and the bachelors in Jade Empire, that gives the option of pairing up two people of the same sex (this would be a useful measure of showing the passage of time, actually). Just little acknowledgment that Hawke isn't the only gay person in the game.

Also, if the prologue allows, maybe a side-romance like Dairren/Iona option at the beginning or even pre-romance, just as a way of 'setting' the character's sexuality so that the game knows not to give the 'flirts-with-women' stuff.

Well, you can always just not choose the flirty options with women, which is what I do, too.  What would be worth more, to me, is actually having an option, if a female flirts with you, to politely decline with a "Sorry, I'm not interested in women."  I'm not expecting it, and like I said, it's enough for me that they even give you the s/s romance option.  But, it would be nice.

[Collider]

There was a line recorded for Mass Effect where male Shepard says that he's not interested in women (either that or that he was only interested in men).

[SgtElias]

Tietj wrote...

Well, you can always just not choose the flirty options with women, which is what I do, too.  What would be worth more, to me, is actually having an option, if a female flirts with you, to politely decline with a "Sorry, I'm not interested in women."  I'm not expecting it, and like I said, it's enough for me that they even give you the s/s romance option.  But, it would be nice.

I always wanted those, as well. I played two characters that were homosexual, and especially for the male elf, I really would have loved the option to say "Thanks, but no thanks, honey." However, I understand that a blanket "no" is easier than splitting it into "I'm not interested" and "I'm only into guys/girls, sorry." However, it would still be great.

[Sith Grey Warden]

dgcatanisiri wrote...

I'll agree with this idea. If I'm playing a Hawke who is solely gay (which, when I have the option to romance a male character, is usually how I play), I don't want him to give flirtatious lines to the female characters he interacts with.

Seeing as your character won't do that unless you tell him to, that's a non-issue.

Even if there can't be a solely gay love interest, I would like to see some side gay characters. Just men who make mention of how they 'drive the boys crazy' or something or that their husband is waiting at home for them (and the same for women as well) and things along that line, rather than being stereotypical like Wade and Herren. And maybe a matchmaking sidequest, like there was with Cammen and Gheyna and Ai Ling and the bachelors in Jade Empire, that gives the option of pairing up two people of the same sex (this would be a useful measure of showing the passage of time, actually). Just little acknowledgment that Hawke isn't the only gay person in the game.

Agreed. In Origins, the f/f couple Branka/Hespith was handled in this fashion and I think it worked well.

Also, if the prologue allows, maybe a side-romance like Dairren/Iona option at the beginning or even pre-romance, just as a way of 'setting' the character's sexuality so that the game knows not to give the 'flirts-with-women' stuff."

Yeah... as long as you can do that without blocking my bi Hawke.

[Eromenos]

Sith Grey Warden wrote...

Even if there can't be a solely gay love interest, I would like to see some side gay characters. Just men who make mention of how they 'drive the boys crazy' or something or that their husband is waiting at home for them (and the same for women as well) and things along that line, rather than being stereotypical like Wade and Herren. And maybe a matchmaking sidequest, like there was with Cammen and Gheyna and Ai Ling and the bachelors in Jade Empire, that gives the option of pairing up two people of the same sex (this would be a useful measure of showing the passage of time, actually). Just little acknowledgment that Hawke isn't the only gay person in the game.

Agreed. In Origins, the f/f couple Branka/Hespith was handled in this fashion and I think it worked well.

I'm afraid that neither Branka/Hespith or Wade/Herren were any good for this. Both those relationships were saddled with the compulsory baggage of being sinister failures, the cost which comes with any canon S/S relationship in BioWare. These characters were tasked with portraying token queers who were not allowed to embody winners alongside heterosexual relationships.

Modifié par Eromenos, 02 janvier 2011 - 03:06 .

[Eromenos]

Saibh wrote...

I also have a burning hatred for the "It's a fantasy, you should be able to break everyone's Suspension of Disbelief!" argument. I've used this counterpoint several times, but things like magic and dragons don't exist in the real world. There's no basis of comparison, so we allow those things to slide past our disbelief censors. Things like sexuality are a quantifiable measurement. The majority of your companions being bisexual stretches the audience's ability to believe in the authenticity of this fictional world.

They wouldn't be bisexual. There is no such label in DA. However, if people are hung up on getting the npcs to spell out strictly what kind of bits they prefer rather than the sort of person they may fall for, I can see why some would demand labeling. Come to think of it, this is a huge reason why BioWare has been allowed to get away with humans such as Alistair and Morrigan being able to fall for strictly opposite-sex dwarves. There's some of that suspension of disbelief argument working for those images.

Tamlen showing an interest in the Dalish elf excludes heterosexual males, does it not? They simply had the option for your best friend, if you are female, to show an interest in you. It's not a punishment for anyone, it's not leaving people out deliberately. It's what they chose to do. They chose to make the character straight.

They do that a lot, don't they? Would you go so far as to say that BioWare's imposition of sexuality of any kind is a conscious decision they wrought on all their characters? I believe so. If that's the case, is it flattering for there to be 1000:1, straight:queer?

That said, I'm all for gender-exclusive side romances, being that the resources don't allow gender-exclusive main romances. I think it wouldn't hurt at all for a character similar to how Teagan was treated, to be gay or a lesbian. It's just a few lines, and it helps roleplaying immensely.

Would be nice. Trouble is convincing BioWare of the merits behind committing to writing even a single established virile, masculine, leader-quality, human, likely-Caucasian, visible male as being only for the gentlemen. Added to that the "obstacle" of precluding him from being easily consigned to a grisly end. Even with the all-straight Teagan, people had to jump through hoops if they wanted to kill him.

Modifié par Eromenos, 02 janvier 2011 - 03:24 .

[Tietj]

Eromenos, I feel your pain, but honestly I think Bioware has been about 1000 times more inclusive than most other companies. And it's not true that all gay relationships are doomed; the Warden's relationship with Zevran can become kind of sweet if you play it out correctly, and Wade and Herren's relationship is campy but fun. I'd prefer not to look a gift horse in the mouth. We all know that David Gaider and the other DA developers who have offered their insights have been incredibly progressive. I'm not saying we shouldn't voice our concerns, but let's not antagonize our allies here.



I do completely agree that the Branka/Hespith relationship was a little squicky and not the greatest representation, not because they were two women (or two dwarves) but because Branka was creating Broodmothers and Hespith was completely insane, not to mention Branka was already married to a guy.

[Rivenous]

I'd like to state for the record that I love the writers at Bioware. I think their writing ability is a shining beacon in the otherwise average at best world of video game writing, and that on the topic of gays in gaming they are easily on the forefront (in fact I think part of the reason I feel so strongly about this is that it somewhat tarnishes my idolised view of them)... That being said I don't see why they can't include a purely gay/lesbian character. I honestly cannot see how it would be any more difficult then making characters purely straight, which they have done time and again. Which leads me to believe (and I pray i'm wrong) that the problem stems from how the public would react.

I don't wish to be seen as pushing the gay agenda here as really I'm more concerned for video games on the whole. Looking at gay/lesbian characters in all the gaming world, there are few and far between, and if you discount those that are blatent pandering and hideous stereotypes there are literally about 4 gay characters worth mentioning... In all video games... Ever! I fear that video games as a whole are never going to be taken as a serious art form if people are afraid to go into areas that books, films and even comics have been going into for ages.

[Eromenos]

Tietj wrote...

Eromenos, I feel your pain, but honestly I think Bioware has been about 1000 times more inclusive than most other companies. And it's not true that all gay relationships are doomed; the Warden's relationship with Zevran can become kind of sweet if you play it out correctly, and Wade and Herren's relationship is campy but fun. I'd prefer not to look a gift horse in the mouth. We all know that David Gaider and the other DA developers who have offered their insights have been incredibly progressive. I'm not saying we shouldn't voice our concerns, but let's not antagonize our allies here.

I do completely agree that the Branka/Hespith relationship was a little squicky and not the greatest representation, not because they were two women (or two dwarves) but because Branka was creating Broodmothers and Hespith was completely insane, not to mention Branka was already married to a guy.

Hehe, I have to dis-count Zevran from the definition of "canon" S/S. I was talking about npcs we encounter who are in S/S relationships with each other. The Warden's choices may vary a lot so his/her relationships don't factor in.

That being said...Branka/Hespith offended me because the former one brutally used the latter. Theirs' was a S/S relationship that all players are going to run into. Anyone who doesn't like S/S will be treated to that, and it will give them more reinforcement for hating S/S. As for Herren/Wade, they were not even allowed to remain as a functional S/S couple. Herren is revealed to be a Desire Demon.

Should we really feel flattered that BioWare sees fit to write these kinds of characters while refusing to portray any overtly S/S couples who need not be victims or monsters?

I know you prefer to think of BioWare as inclusive. But the way I see it, not a single one of their queer characters were ever created for our benefit. They were made so that BioWare could have a sound-byte about being inclusive that only seems nice. Nothing more.

Modifié par Eromenos, 02 janvier 2011 - 04:23 .

[Tietj]

Rivenous wrote...

I'd like to state for the record that I love the writers at Bioware. I think their writing ability is a shining beacon in the otherwise average at best world of video game writing, and that on the topic of gays in gaming they are easily on the forefront (in fact I think part of the reason I feel so strongly about this is that it somewhat tarnishes my idolised view of them)... That being said I don't see why they can't include a purely gay/lesbian character. I honestly cannot see how it would be any more difficult then making characters purely straight, which they have done time and again. Which leads me to believe (and I pray i'm wrong) that the problem stems from how the public would react.
I don't wish to be seen as pushing the gay agenda here as really I'm more concerned for video games on the whole. Looking at gay/lesbian characters in all the gaming world, there are few and far between, and if you discount those that are blatent pandering and hideous stereotypes there are literally about 4 gay characters worth mentioning... In all video games... Ever! I fear that video games as a whole are never going to be taken as a serious art form if people are afraid to go into areas that books, films and even comics have been going into for ages.

There are two separate issues as far as I can tell.  With regard to video games as a whole, you're absolutely right that most developers are scared to go there, mostly because video games are largely played by young, heterosexual males who are not known for their tolerance.  This is the same reason that it's difficult to find female video game characters who aren't stereotypes (to be fair, most male video game characters are stereotypes as well, or at least archetypes).  Which is a shame, and you're right--video games will never be taken as a serious art form until something is done about the writing in general, with a few glorious exceptions (Ico, Shadow of the Colossus, Mass Effect/Dragon Age, the Uncharted series, and several others). 

The other issue in this case, specific to Bioware, has to do with pure and simple finances and marketing.  They have already taken the plunge and included gay characters, which is great.  But to make one of the love interests purely gay is not practical for the following reason: it may not take a huge amount of effort to record a dozen or so extra lines of dialogue for a male character romancing a male who can also be romanced by a female, but to include an entire romance, complete with dialogue, cutscenes, party banter, different epilogues, and the myriad other things that go into a romance, and only have it applicable to the minority of players who will play through a m/m romance, is a lot of effort for very little incentive.  Ergo, most likely the m/m romanceable characters are more likely to be bisexual, identical to the m/f romance of the same character with a few dialogue changes. 

It's possible, of course, to have the same character be gay or straight depending on whether the PC is a male or female, but that raises a few issues with the integrity of the character himself, if something so fundamental about the character can be changed with just a few lines of dialogue.  At least, that's the conventional wisdom; I, for one, would like to see a gay romanceable companion and that seems like the most likely way we would get one, and really there SHOULDN'T be a huge difference between a gay and straight version of the same character.  But, I'll bow to whatever the writers decide.

[Tietj]

Eromenos wrote...

I know you prefer to think of BioWare as inclusive. But the way I see it, not a single one of their queer characters were ever created for our benefit. They were made so that BioWare could have a sound-byte about being inclusive that only seems nice. Nothing more.

I strongly disagree with this, but you have a right to your opinion and I understand your frustration. 

[SleepyPerson]

Rivenous wrote...

I'd like to state for the record that I love the writers at Bioware. I think their writing ability is a shining beacon in the otherwise average at best world of video game writing, and that on the topic of gays in gaming they are easily on the forefront (in fact I think part of the reason I feel so strongly about this is that it somewhat tarnishes my idolised view of them)... That being said I don't see why they can't include a purely gay/lesbian character. I honestly cannot see how it would be any more difficult then making characters purely straight, which they have done time and again. Which leads me to believe (and I pray i'm wrong) that the problem stems from how the public would react.
I don't wish to be seen as pushing the gay agenda here as really I'm more concerned for video games on the whole. Looking at gay/lesbian characters in all the gaming world, there are few and far between, and if you discount those that are blatent pandering and hideous stereotypes there are literally about 4 gay characters worth mentioning... In all video games... Ever! I fear that video games as a whole are never going to be taken as a serious art form if people are afraid to go into areas that books, films and even comics have been going into for ages.

I'm guessing that making romance options actually cost a lot of money for them so they have to focus on making love interests that the majority will use. Making a stictly gay character would only be used by a small percentage of gamers, so the best way to make a same-sex option used by the majority is if they were bisexual so they can be romanced by the opposite sex.
There are still a lot of close-minded individuals so gaming companies have to include homosexual characters at a slow pace if they want it to work. Just like people have slowly been more and more excepting of homosexuals through out the decades.