2001 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

TricksterPuppet wrote...

There are still a lot of close-minded individuals

I hope you're not implying that straight players who wouldn't engage their characters in S/S relationships are closed minded. 

Or are you talking about the media?

[Saibh]

Eromenos wrote...

Hehe, I have to dis-count Zevran from the definition of "canon" S/S. I was talking about npcs we encounter who are in S/S relationships with each other. The Warden's choices may vary a lot so his/her relationships don't factor in.

That being said...Branka/Hespith offended me because the former one brutally used the latter. Theirs' was a S/S relationship that all players are going to run into. Anyone who doesn't like S/S will be treated to that, and it will give them more reinforcement for hating S/S. As for Herren/Wade, they were not even allowed to remain as a functional S/S couple. Herren is revealed to be a Desire Demon.

Branka was mad. She didn't just destroy her lover, she detroyed her entire clan--over three hundred people who had no choice but to follow her because they saw her as a living god. There was no indication that Hespith wasn't simply a loving general who had no choice.

The Herren thing is limited to the AU of Darkspawn Chronicles. Otherwise, they're in a healthy relationship as far as we can tell.

I do believe there are two gay men in The Calling, right?

Should we really feel flattered that BioWare sees fit to write these kinds of characters while refusing to portray any overtly S/S couples who need not be victims or monsters?

Eleanor and Bryce Cousland - victims, die together
Eamon and Isolde Guerrin - Former victim (is cured), later crazy harpy woman (also victim, can die)
Bhelen and Rica - Former can possibly be executed, latter is his ****. At the very least, Rica loves him
Cailan and Anora - Doubts over whether they loved each other, Cailan could have possibly cheated, Anora was a crazy harpy woman
Athras and Danyla - Latter is turned into a werewolf, dies
Alistair and F!Warden - Possibly he breaks up with player, possibly he sacrifices himself, possibly leaves player/refuses to forgive her
Morrigan and M!Warden - She always leaves, does not forgive player if refused Dark Ritual
Leliana and Warden - Ends happily, unless not hardened and player marries Anora (het only)
Zevran and Warden - Ends happily

I cannot think of any more in-game straight couples. You're mistaking the trend for BioWare to make every couple deliciously miserable to exclusively making gay couples miserable.

I know you prefer to think of BioWare as inclusive. But the way I see it, not a single one of their queer characters were ever created for our benefit. They were made so that BioWare could have a sound-byte about being inclusive that only seems nice. Nothing more.

Including gay romance has neither helped nor hindered sales, as far as anyone can tell. The only thing it definitely does is leech resources. But, be sure to pass on your opinion that they shouldn't include them anyway.

Modifié par Saibh, 02 janvier 2011 - 04:47 .

[Rivenous]

Tietj wrote...

Rivenous wrote...

I'd like to state for the record that I love the writers at Bioware. I think their writing ability is a shining beacon in the otherwise average at best world of video game writing, and that on the topic of gays in gaming they are easily on the forefront (in fact I think part of the reason I feel so strongly about this is that it somewhat tarnishes my idolised view of them)... That being said I don't see why they can't include a purely gay/lesbian character. I honestly cannot see how it would be any more difficult then making characters purely straight, which they have done time and again. Which leads me to believe (and I pray i'm wrong) that the problem stems from how the public would react.
I don't wish to be seen as pushing the gay agenda here as really I'm more concerned for video games on the whole. Looking at gay/lesbian characters in all the gaming world, there are few and far between, and if you discount those that are blatent pandering and hideous stereotypes there are literally about 4 gay characters worth mentioning... In all video games... Ever! I fear that video games as a whole are never going to be taken as a serious art form if people are afraid to go into areas that books, films and even comics have been going into for ages.

There are two separate issues as far as I can tell.  With regard to video games as a whole, you're absolutely right that most developers are scared to go there, mostly because video games are largely played by young, heterosexual males who are not known for their tolerance.  This is the same reason that it's difficult to find female video game characters who aren't stereotypes (to be fair, most male video game characters are stereotypes as well, or at least archetypes).  Which is a shame, and you're right--video games will never be taken as a serious art form until something is done about the writing in general, with a few glorious exceptions (Ico, Shadow of the Colossus, Mass Effect/Dragon Age, the Uncharted series, and several others). 

The other issue in this case, specific to Bioware, has to do with pure and simple finances and marketing.  They have already taken the plunge and included gay characters, which is great.  But to make one of the love interests purely gay is not practical for the following reason: it may not take a huge amount of effort to record a dozen or so extra lines of dialogue for a male character romancing a male who can also be romanced by a female, but to include an entire romance, complete with dialogue, cutscenes, party banter, different epilogues, and the myriad other things that go into a romance, and only have it applicable to the minority of players who will play through a m/m romance, is a lot of effort for very little incentive.  Ergo, most likely the m/m romanceable characters are more likely to be bisexual, identical to the m/f romance of the same character with a few dialogue changes. 

It's possible, of course, to have the same character be gay or straight depending on whether the PC is a male or female, but that raises a few issues with the integrity of the character himself, if something so fundamental about the character can be changed with just a few lines of dialogue.  At least, that's the conventional wisdom; I, for one, would like to see a gay romanceable companion and that seems like the most likely way we would get one, and really there SHOULDN'T be a huge difference between a gay and straight version of the same character.  But, I'll bow to whatever the writers decide.

I fully understand why it's unlikely a gay character will appear any time soon, and I fully understand that while games are an art they are also a business and that including a gay, non bi option has risk attached with little reward. But the problem is as long as you use that defence things will never change. If you say something like girls and gays are the minority of gamers therefore content aimed at them is a secondary concern... Then they will remain the minority forever more because you aim not content at them! Still as I said before I love Bioware's writing so I'm sure I'll be happy with my bi guy, just as I was with Zeveran. But I think the second people just sit back and go "oh well at least they acknowledge our existance" things will stop moving forward.

[Tietj]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

TricksterPuppet wrote...

There are still a lot of close-minded individuals

I hope you're not implying that straight players who wouldn't engage their characters in S/S relationships are closed minded. 

Or are you talking about the media?

I think he meant people who get on forums like this and threaten not to buy the game if it includes a m/m romance, not just people who won't play through the s/s relationship.  Trust me, nobody is suggesting that not using the content is tantamount to intolerance

[SleepyPerson]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

TricksterPuppet wrote...

There are still a lot of close-minded individuals

I hope you're not implying that straight players who wouldn't engage their characters in S/S relationships are closed minded. 

Or are you talking about the media?

No I'm not implying straight players who don't pursue it lol, from what I've seen on the forum many straight players don't mind it exists in the game  I'm referring to those that complain about it constantly, ignore the fact that its optional and threaten to not buy the game if it exists in it.

Modifié par TricksterPuppet, 02 janvier 2011 - 04:49 .

[upsettingshorts]

Ah, then I can agree those people can get bent.

*nods*

[slimgrin]

Saibh wrote...

Including gay romance has neither helped nor hindered sales, as far as anyone can tell. The only thing it definitely does is leech resources. But, be sure to pass on your opinion that they shouldn't include them anyway.

Leech resources? Thats a rather harsh assessment.

It does make the game more diverse and realistic. It also gives players more options. I usually play a female in my rpg's, and if I have the choice, she's gay.

[Tietj]

Rivenous wrote...

But I think the second people just sit back and go "oh well at least they acknowledge our existance" things will stop moving forward.

That's entirely true, and a great point.  And you're right, I'm not entirely satisfied with the portrayal of gay people and relationships in Dragon Age, much less Mass Effect.  But I still believe in giving credit where credit is due; nobody HAD to include anything and by doing so, they're taking a big risk of being hit from both sides (which they have been).  They obviously felt strongly enough about the issue that they included them anyway, even a second time, and they deserve recongnition for it.

[Saibh]

slimgrin wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Including gay romance has neither helped nor hindered sales, as far as anyone can tell. The only thing it definitely does is leech resources. But, be sure to pass on your opinion that they shouldn't include them anyway.

Leech resources? Thats a rather harsh assessment.

It does make the game more diverse and realistic. It also gives players more options. I usually play a female in my rpg's, and if I have the choice, she's gay.

I was being derogatory to emphasize the fallacy in Eromenos' belief that BioWare includes gay romance for the publicity. I pointed out it doesn't seem to affect sales, but something a money-grubbing company would care about is that it's extra work for little pay-off.

[Jademoon121]

 I saw this conversation above aplenty in the Mass Effect counterpart, so I'm just going to say my piece. 

Personally I'm hoping that its not Fenris. Although he's completely different from Zevran in both persona and background and he has LYRIUM TATTOOS and a HUGE SWORD , they still have the same gay-boi-chic thing going on that kills it for me, if not elven m/m romances in general. I'm getting tired of the stereotypical elven pretty boy and no appearances of bad ass and grim elven warriors like you see in Warhammer. He is written by Gaider though, so I don't think I'll be disappointed though if that's how it is.

I wonder if Varric will be the option...I bet that grin of his has SO MANY backstories  <_<

Modifié par Jademoon121, 02 janvier 2011 - 05:01 .

[Cobrawar]

This thread alone could destroy dragon age sales. I surprised it hasn't been locked yet.

M/M romance is always a touchy subject because not many people like m/m romances. f/f romances are more acceptable now because I think more people like it. I know it sucks but that is just the way the world works.

[pallascedar]

Tietj wrote...

pallascedar wrote...
Take the bisexuality issue up with Kinsey, not me. He has a great deal of credibility, and I guess I didn't phrase it right, he isn't saying that everyone is bisexual, he just claims that very few people are completely heterosexual, just as very few people are completely homosexual . Basically, I was pointing out why bisexual companions made more sense that homosexual companions if we wanted to be completely crazy about it.

Yeah, I know what you're saying, but I think in most people's experience, this is not really the case.  Also, logically, if you're saying that bisexual companions make more sense than homosexual ones, they would also make more sense than heterosexual ones, so really EVERYONE should be written as bisexual.  And that's not going to happen, nor, I think, does anyone want that to happen.  Only having heterosexual and bisexual companions may make more sense from a developer's standpoint, for the reasons that David Gaider stated (which I accept), but not because of anything to do with Kinsey. 

Anyway, it's not too important that the LI be completely gay (although I would prefer it); what would really be great is having dialogue options for Hawke in which he or she can express non-interest in the opposite sex.

Well, yeah, but I had to bring it up because I'm crazy.

[Saibh]

Cobrawar wrote...

This thread alone could destroy dragon age sales. I surprised it hasn't been locked yet.
M/M romance is always a touchy subject because not many people like m/m romances. f/f romances are more acceptable now because I think more people like it. I know it sucks but that is just the way the world works.

Why would it be locked? People rarely argue, and I can't say arguing is what is going on now. If I see it derailing too badly, or getting heated up, it'll be moved back on course.

If you have nothing constructive to say, please leave.

[SleepyPerson]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Ah, then I can agree those people can get bent.
*nods*

LOL they sure can

Modifié par TricksterPuppet, 02 janvier 2011 - 05:10 .

[Cobrawar]

I always have something constructive to say. I can feel the Hatred. don't be angry, its just a game. In a way what we say on these forums will have very little to do with the outcome of the game. Choices have been made and we are just going along for the ride

[Rivenous]

Tietj wrote...

That's entirely true, and a great point.  And you're right, I'm not entirely satisfied with the portrayal of gay people and relationships in Dragon Age, much less Mass Effect.  But I still believe in giving credit where credit is due; nobody HAD to include anything and by doing so, they're taking a big risk of being hit from both sides (which they have been).  They obviously felt strongly enough about the issue that they included them anyway, even a second time, and they deserve recongnition for it.

Oh I am more then happy to praise Bioware and it's writing prowess at any point, and I personally think the Dragon Age team is easily the best so far. But I think in games such as this it's okay to be a little expectant. In rpgs like Final Fantasy it wouldn't be such an issue, as there I'm an outsider watching a group of people play out a story... In games like DA and ME however they give you choice, and I (and I presume many other gamers) like to play as me in a least one of my playthroughs. My character looks like me, and when faced with moral choices I think "What would I do?". I'm a guy who likes guys, and if i'm forced to decide between starting a relationship with a girl or being celebate... It just completely destroys any sense of immersion for quite a while if not completely.

[Saibh]

Cobrawar wrote...

I always have something constructive to say. I can feel the Hatred. don't be angry, its just a game. In a way what we say on these forums will have very little to do with the outcome of the game. Choices have been made and we are just going along for the ride

Again. If you have nothing constructive to add, please leave. "This thread will destroy BioWare's sales" is not constructive.

[Tietj]

Cobrawar wrote...

I always have something constructive to say. I can feel the Hatred. don't be angry, its just a game. In a way what we say on these forums will have very little to do with the outcome of the game. Choices have been made and we are just going along for the ride

That's true, if a bit cryptic.  But I have to disagree with you that this thread alone could destroy the sales of the game.  I think that statement might have been true a few years ago (except for the obvious fact that the vast majority of people who buy the game will not read this forum before making a decision to buy or not) but attitudes are changing.  This thread has been going strong for four months and there have been very few trolls in that time, and not even that much fighting for such a controversial topic.

[SleepyPerson]

Cobrawar wrote...

I always have something constructive to say. I can feel the Hatred. don't be angry, its just a game. In a way what we say on these forums will have very little to do with the outcome of the game. Choices have been made and we are just going along for the ride

It will be included in the game... so theres no hate.

[Eromenos]

Saibh wrote...

Branka was mad. She didn't just destroy her lover, she detroyed her entire clan--over three hundred people who had no choice but to follow her because they saw her as a living god. There was no indication that Hespith wasn't simply a loving general who had no choice.

The Herren thing is limited to the AU of Darkspawn Chronicles. Otherwise, they're in a healthy relationship as far as we can tell.

I do believe there are two gay men in The Calling, right?

Did you even speak to Oghren at all about Branka after you dispense with the anvil? He says that Branka ran off with Hespit. We know Branka ran off with the entire house, but Oghren saw Hespit as his replacement in Branka's eyes. He even reconciles himself to the fact by imagining the two women nekkid and getting busy together.

The Herren/Wade relationship + Desire Demon reveal were both in some DLC. I've heard some people say that the entire DLC might be non-canon, but that is hardly flattering regarding these two. The only overt evidence of their romantic relationship existed in the non-canon DLC that reveals one of them to be disingenuous.

Eleanor and Bryce Cousland - victims, die together
Eamon and Isolde Guerrin - Former victim (is cured), later crazy harpy woman (also victim, can die)
Bhelen and Rica - Former can possibly be executed, latter is his ****. At the very least, Rica loves him
Cailan and Anora - Doubts over whether they loved each other, Cailan could have possibly cheated, Anora was a crazy harpy woman
Athras and Danyla - Latter is turned into a werewolf, dies
Alistair and F!Warden - Possibly he breaks up with player, possibly he sacrifices himself, possibly leaves player/refuses to forgive her
Morrigan and M!Warden - She always leaves, does not forgive player if refused Dark Ritual
Leliana and Warden - Ends happily, unless not hardened and player marries Anora (het only)
Zevran and Warden - Ends happily

I cannot think of any more in-game straight couples. You're mistaking the trend for BioWare to make every couple deliciously miserable to exclusively making gay couples miserable.

Indeed? Excuse me, I'm pointing out that all canon S/S relationships are compelled to end in failure, misery, and or death. One of the M/F examples you cling to have the capability of ending well for the participants. By no means is happiness guaranteed...and because I'm referring to the Redcliffe couple, their dysfunctional hog-heaven is subjective. But unlike the S/S examples Eamon/Isolde is allowed a chance to carry out that sense of hope. Not so for any of the canon S/S relationships. Athras and Danyla are allowed dignity. Allowed, not guaranteed, but allowed. Same with the nauseating M/F elf-teens living in that camp. Hell, the Couslands? They loved each other to the end and died in each other's arms doing something that mattered to them both. Cailan/Anora? They loved each other as far as I could tell when I spoke with Anora. You and I disagree about Anora's personality.

Let us also not forget that Branka/Hespit and Herren/Wade were saddled as well by the fact that one in each of those relationships was a malevolent monster. Does that occur among every last one of the M/F couples you listed? Is it a stipulation for them? No. Eamon and Isolde don't count because they're not treated as such, despite what we know. As for Bhelen and Rica I have no experience playing dwarf so I have no comment about them specifically, but I'll remind you again that all the M/F couples you pointed to allow for flexibility and diversity in avoiding the villainy and or victimhood that BioWare forces on all their canon S/S couples.

Including gay romance has neither helped nor hindered sales, as far as anyone can tell. The only thing it definitely does is leech resources. But, be sure to pass on your opinion that they shouldn't include them anyway.

Whatever you say.

They should not pretend that they're doing this for our sakes. Or at least, we should not pretend for their sakes.

Modifié par Eromenos, 02 janvier 2011 - 05:16 .

[SleepyPerson]

Eromenos wrote...
*snip*

She's not trying to be offensive, she's actually the one who made this thread.

[Ninja Mage]

Cobrawar, Gaider has already confirmed s/s male romances for the game. You're just beating a dead horse that we discussed along time ago. He even said the inclusion of it was something he was pushing for the game, and it wouldn't  hurt sales AT ALL

Modifié par Ninja Mage, 02 janvier 2011 - 05:15 .

[Cobrawar]

I'm saying that m/m relationships are still taboo in this day and age. I would let m/m relationship occur with the right character, but expect it to end up on fox news or cnn.

[Ryzaki]

???



Last I checked DAO wasn't on Faux News...I mean Fox news.

[Rivenous]

Cobrawar wrote...

I always have something constructive to say. I can feel the Hatred. don't be angry, its just a game. In a way what we say on these forums will have very little to do with the outcome of the game. Choices have been made and we are just going along for the ride

Why exactly is it just a game? Why should we expect anything but the best from it's creators? Why can't we discuss characters in a game the same way we would discuss a book or film?
And when you say the things in this forum will have very little to do with the outcome of the game, first off I have to dissagree, second of all let's say you're right for arguments sake... If enough people say the same thing over and over, someone will have to acknowledge it sooner or later right?