2001 réponses à ce sujet

[Tietj]

Rivenous wrote...

Tietj wrote...

That's entirely true, and a great point.  And you're right, I'm not entirely satisfied with the portrayal of gay people and relationships in Dragon Age, much less Mass Effect.  But I still believe in giving credit where credit is due; nobody HAD to include anything and by doing so, they're taking a big risk of being hit from both sides (which they have been).  They obviously felt strongly enough about the issue that they included them anyway, even a second time, and they deserve recongnition for it.

Oh I am more then happy to praise Bioware and it's writing prowess at any point, and I personally think the Dragon Age team is easily the best so far. But I think in games such as this it's okay to be a little expectant. In rpgs like Final Fantasy it wouldn't be such an issue, as there I'm an outsider watching a group of people play out a story... In games like DA and ME however they give you choice, and I (and I presume many other gamers) like to play as me in a least one of my playthroughs. My character looks like me, and when faced with moral choices I think "What would I do?". I'm a guy who likes guys, and if i'm forced to decide between starting a relationship with a girl or being celebate... It just completely destroys any sense of immersion for quite a while if not completely.

Agreed, wholeheartedly.  Which is one reason that as much as I think Mass Effect is a fantastic game, I have to roll my eyes when they try to explain how a romance with Liara is not a lesbian romance because the Asari are one-gendered and blah blah blah (not to open THAT can of worms again).  But the Dragon Age team has done pretty well in allowing us to create a gay character for ourselves, and I'm optimistic about the same being the case with DA2.  And hopefully, when other companies realize that if it's tasteful and well-written, s/s relationships don't hurt sales, they will start including them as well.  It will be slow going, though, and Bioware--particularly the DA team--is at the vanguard.

[Ninja Mage]

It's not that big of a deal anymore. It's still an issue but for fox news or any website to say kids are exposed to same sex media in a game rated M for adults anyway is just asinine.

[SleepyPerson]

CNN wouldn't care. Also no one really cares about fox news.

[Jademoon121]

Cobrawar wrote...

I'm saying that m/m relationships are still taboo in this day and age. I would let m/m relationship occur with the right character, but expect it to end up on fox news or cnn.

They are more taboo than lesbian couples true, but like the people above me said, attitudes are changing. Fox really only focused on the nudity in the sex scenes last I checked, not the sex in of itself. That explains why all the romance scenes in ME2 and DA are shadowed out or clothed respectively.
Your last line confounds me though, what do you mean by right character?

[upsettingshorts]

Tietj wrote...
Which is one reason that as much as I think Mass Effect is a fantastic game, I have to roll my eyes when they try to explain how a romance with Liara is not a lesbian romance because the Asari are one-gendered 

That one's easy.

To Liara, it's not "lesbian" because the Asari have no concept of gender roles and have only one sex, female.

To FemShep, it is, because the all-female Asari possess secondary sex characteristics of human females.

So I'd go with "yes it is, and M/M gets the shaft (ha. ha.)" 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 janvier 2011 - 05:21 .

[Saibh]

Eromenos wrote...

Did you even speak to Oghren at all about Branka after you dispense with the anvil? He says that Branka ran off with Hespit. We know Branka ran off with the entire house, but Oghren saw Hespit as his replacement in Branka's eyes. He even reconciles himself to the fact by imagining the two women nekkid and getting busy together.

...Yes? I...what? I...I...

Oooh! No, I didn't mean "loving general" in a platonic sense, I meant "loving general" in a romantic sense. Hespith outright says she's Branka's lover.

The Herren/Wade relationship + Desire Demon reveal were both in some DLC. I've heard some people say that the entire DLC might be non-canon, but that is hardly flattering regarding these two. The only overt evidence of their romantic relationship existed in the non-canon DLC that reveals one of them to be disingenuous.

It is in Darkspawn Chronicles, and the events of it are definitely non-canon. Alistair shacking up with Leliana is hardly flattering, either. Howe getting away with murdering the Couslands isn't too fun. The Desire Demon thing was added to make people laugh at the silliness and to add some variables to the darkspawn horde.

Indeed? Excuse me, I'm pointing out that all canon S/S relationships are compelled to end in failure, misery, and or death.

One does, one does not. Zevran's relationship with the Warden always ends happily, should the Warden not off himself. Leliana's always does too, if you're female.

One of the M/F examples you cling to have the capability of ending well for the participants. By no means is happiness guaranteed...and because I'm referring to the Redcliffe couple, their dysfunctional hog-heaven is subjective. But unlike the S/S examples Eamon/Isolde is allowed a chance to carry out that sense of hope. Not so for any of the canon S/S relationships. Cailan/Anora? They loved each other as far as I could tell when I spoke with Anora. You and I disagree about Anora's personality.

So you're subjective opinion on Eamon and Isolde's relationship (and Cailan and Anora) alters how BioWare treats s/s versus het, but mine has no value?

Let us also not forget that Branka/Hespit and Herren/Wade were saddled as well by the fact that one in each of those relationships was a malevolent monster.

Please stop clinging to the idea Herren is a Desire Demon. Alternate universe, non-canon.

Does that occur among every last one of the M/F couples you listed? Is it a stipulation for them? No. Eamon and Isolde don't count because they're not treated as such, despite what we know. As for Bhelen and Rica I have no experience playing dwarf so I have no comment about them specifically, but I'll remind you again that all the M/F couples you pointed to allow for flexibility and diversity in avoiding the villainy and or victimhood that BioWare forces on all their canon S/S couples.

You mean, out of the two presented, one ends badly and this means that all gay relationships are doomed? 

Whatever you say.

They should not pretend that they're doing this for our sakes. Or at least, we should not pretend for their sakes

Why are they doing it then? As I said. Neither helped nor hindered, straight from the horses mouth.

[Ninja Mage]

I had a big debate with people when mass effect 2 came out about shepard isn't gay blah blah and for some reason people kept bringing up the Asari thing..I have no idea why

[Saibh]

Cobrawar wrote...

I'm saying that m/m relationships are still taboo in this day and age. I would let m/m relationship occur with the right character, but expect it to end up on fox news or cnn.

...DAO received no ire. The Fox News thing also was limited to the idea of being able to have sex in a video game, not lesbian sex.

[SleepyPerson]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Tietj wrote...
Which is one reason that as much as I think Mass Effect is a fantastic game, I have to roll my eyes when they try to explain how a romance with Liara is not a lesbian romance because the Asari are one-gendered 

That one's easy.

To Liara, it's not "lesbian" because the Asari have no concept of gender roles and have only one sex, female.

To FemShep, it is, because the all-female Asari possess secondary sex characteristics of human females.

So I'd go with "yes it is, and M/M gets the shaft (ha. ha.)" 

 Since I never played mass effect, I was about to ask how the Asari have babies but I think that topic should be avoided lol.

[Eromenos]

TricksterPuppet wrote...

Eromenos wrote...
*snip*

She's not trying to be offensive, she's actually the one who made this thread.

Actually, I get her kind of hostility a lot over in the ME forum. It's understandable. I don't give BioWare any benefit of the doubt. Playing nice, apologizing for queer presence, such attitudes garner the exclusions and or exploitations we see often in their games. Sure, speaking with unmasked criticism also isn't a guarantee for any positive change. This is just me, I see no point to lending credit where none is due.

[slimgrin]

Fox had their fun with ME1, I doubt they'll have another go at it.

[Tietj]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Tietj wrote...
Which is one reason that as much as I think Mass Effect is a fantastic game, I have to roll my eyes when they try to explain how a romance with Liara is not a lesbian romance because the Asari are one-gendered 

That one's easy.

To Liara, it's not "lesbian" because the Asari have no concept of gender roles and have only one sex, female.

To FemShep, it is, because the all-female Asari possess secondary sex characteristics of human females.

So I'd go with "yes it is, and M/M gets the shaft (ha. ha.)" 

Um, yes.  Agreed.  And I'm not sure what you mean by the "ha, ha" but from the perspective of a gay gamer it seemed like a rather elaborate way to add a lesbian but not a gay relationship, and thus a minor slap to the face, and not particularly funny.  Or did you mean the "ha ha" because of the "gets the shaft" double entendre?  If so, well played my friend.

[Jademoon121]

Ninja Mage wrote...

I had a big debate with people when mass effect 2 came out about shepard isn't gay blah blah and for some reason people kept bringing up the Asari thing..I have no idea why

Because the Asari are mono-gendered, not truly male or female in a sense, Bioware argues that having femshep romance one is more akin to....socially accepted bestiality <_< than female homosexuality. However though for a lot of fans, since Asari look, sound, act and have the instincts and roughly the same biological parts that human women have, it's still gay regardless, and people get angry that it's okay for femshep to be with a girl but not for manshep to be with a guy.
Hope that helps...sorta. I'm a little lost myself in this.

[Cobrawar]

the asari look very female to me, if they are suppose to be genderless , then bioware failed

[Saibh]

Eromenos wrote...

TricksterPuppet wrote...

Eromenos wrote...
*snip*

She's not trying to be offensive, she's actually the one who made this thread.

Actually, I get her kind of hostility a lot over in the ME forum. It's understandable. I don't give BioWare any benefit of the doubt. Playing nice, apologizing for queer presence, such attitudes garner the exclusions and or exploitations we see often in their games. Sure, speaking with unmasked criticism also isn't a guarantee for any positive change. This is just me, I see no point to lending credit where none is due.

Alright, I think we're moving into the offensive and derogatory aspect of debate. Can we please keep the pointing fingers blame-game out, if you'd be so kind? It's fine if you want to say BioWare is doing you no favors, but try to be a bit more civil about it.

Cobrawar wrote...

the asari look very female to me, if they are suppose to be genderless , then bioware failed

Monogendered. There are only females, and therefore they have no concept of males (prior to aliens, that is). Sexuality is different from them. I would say it's not a lesbian romance from Liara's side, but it is from FemShep's side.

Modifié par Saibh, 02 janvier 2011 - 05:34 .

[Tietj]

Eromenos wrote...

TricksterPuppet wrote...

Eromenos wrote...
*snip*

She's not trying to be offensive, she's actually the one who made this thread.

Actually, I get her kind of hostility a lot over in the ME forum. It's understandable. I don't give BioWare any benefit of the doubt. Playing nice, apologizing for queer presence, such attitudes garner the exclusions and or exploitations we see often in their games. Sure, speaking with unmasked criticism also isn't a guarantee for any positive change. This is just me, I see no point to lending credit where none is due.

You probably get hostility because you're a little reactionary, almost militant.  If this is how you react to developers trying to throw us a bone then why should they bother?

[upsettingshorts]

Cobrawar wrote...

the asari look very female to me, if they are suppose to be genderless , then bioware failed

The concept of "gender" simply doesn't exist for a single-sex species. 

Gender is a set of characteristics distinguishing between male and female, particularly in the cases of men and women. Depending on the context, the discriminating characteristics vary from sex to social role to gender identity.

Think about it for a second and you'll see that "a set of characteristics that distinguish the sexes" doesn't make sense if every single member of the species is female.  To us humans, even FemShep, Asari are very feminine.  To Asari themselves, they don't even have that concept.

But that's getting too far off topic.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 janvier 2011 - 05:35 .

[Ryzaki]

Argh. The asari. *sighs and rubs temples*



I swear if I hear the "Asari aren't female!!!!" one more time...



Liara's words were she wasn't "exactly a woman". That is very true. She is not a human female. A female on the other hand...

[Cobrawar]

I always thought genderless would be like a person or alien, being both of a combination or a blending of both male and female characteristics, sort of like that skit from Saturday night live.

[Tietj]

hahaha, I am SO sorry I brought up the Asari. WAY off topic.

[Saibh]

Cobrawar wrote...

I always thought genderless would be like a person or alien, being both of a combination or a blending of both male and female characteristics, sort of like that skit from Saturday night live.

She is monogendered. Mono = one. Technically gender doesn't exist for them because there is no distinction.

Anyhow, we're derailing the topic. This isn't an asari gender debate (we've had, like, three of those on this thread).

Modifié par Saibh, 02 janvier 2011 - 05:43 .

[Cobrawar]

Ill bring it back on topic. I just wanted to say I fully support m/m relationships. Its about time bioware showed some balls, no pun intended lol. Im going to bed night all

Modifié par Cobrawar, 02 janvier 2011 - 05:47 .

[Jademoon121]

So any ideas anyone? We've only got two options, his streetwise and beardness Varric or mysterious lyrium-cursed Fenris.

Bets? Guesses? Ideas what should've been?