2001 réponses à ce sujet

[Tietj]

Jademoon121 wrote...

Tietj wrote...

Erani wrote...

Tietj wrote...

Saibh wrote...
In any case, I just would rather not see another bisexual elf, is all. I won't burst into flame if that's the case, though.

I agree with every part of this statement.

I agree as well. Another bishōnen bi elf would be too much. 

The only saving grace would be that Fenris is (I believe) a warrior, and thus possibly much tougher than his rather effete appearance would indicate.  And his backstory is interesting, too, which could open up all sorts of possibilities.  I wouldn't be disappointed if it's Fenris, but I would prefer a human.

The Lyrium tattoos on him prevent him from physical contact and they give him constant pain....do you think that might show up in the probable romance? How he has too bear the curse and deal with the pain?
Bishoneness aside, there's some great material on this guy.

That's true.  Although it comes with the danger of Fenris not being able to have a physical relationship at all, which would result in people complaining that Bioware didn't include a physical m/m relationship for a convoluted and somewhat contrived reason.  But I don't think they would actually do that, and yes it would be very interesting to see if that played into anything at all.

[Ninja Mage]

Bishonen is an archetype of usually a male lead character in anime that has a slender appearance and womanlike features. Like Kefka from Final Fantasy 6 or Sephiroth from Final Fantasy 7. Thats bishonen

[SleepyPerson]

Eromenos wrote...

Someone mentioned not long ago the irritation that comes when romancing Zevran as a male only to encounter time and again his wishfulness for past women exclusively.

Zevran is a bisexual male, he is not gay so he also likes girls. He may have a preference for women but that doesn't change the fact that he does fall in love with the male warden.

Modifié par TricksterPuppet, 02 janvier 2011 - 06:17 .

[Ryzaki]

???



Fenris is pretty bishounen. He's an attractive elf that carries around what seems to be a huge sword.

[Ninja Mage]

Yeah but he does have muscles..he's not THAt bishonen..he seems like the ''strong silent'' archetype, but who knows

[Jademoon121]

Kazanth wrote...

Personally I hope that if Bioware chose to not make Fenris the M/M LI that they did so for any other reason other than "because he's an elf". I can understand why people would want to avoid another bisexual rogue since their personalities are usually similar and it would feel repetitive but I see no reason to avoid a gay elf other than because it's a trope. Not trying to offend anyone, I just can't see any other reason.

Elves stereotypically in fantasy fit the gay stereotype; hairless, effeminate, overly cultured, young, frail and sometimes total wusses, hence 'Its not gay if it's an elf "trope.

I'm not trying to sound like an angry advocate for "Bara men" in gaming and you have a valid point, it's just personally it just doesn't appeal to me and it's over-used.

[Tietj]

Eromenos wrote...

Tietj wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

TricksterPuppet wrote...

Eromenos wrote...
*snip*

She's not trying to be offensive, she's actually the one who made this thread.

Actually, I get her kind of hostility a lot over in the ME forum. It's understandable. I don't give BioWare any benefit of the doubt. Playing nice, apologizing for queer presence, such attitudes garner the exclusions and or exploitations we see often in their games. Sure, speaking with unmasked criticism also isn't a guarantee for any positive change. This is just me, I see no point to lending credit where none is due.

You probably get hostility because you're a little reactionary, almost militant.  If this is how you react to developers trying to throw us a bone then why should they bother?

I'll be the first to call myself militant on this issue, and not just in video games.

No, I'm definitely not happy with crumbs. You can have them all.

Ok, but militancy kind of went out in the early 90's.  And I'd hardly call the inclusion of a well-developed gay romance in a video game to be "crumbs"

[Jademoon121]

Tietj wrote...

Jademoon121 wrote...

Tietj wrote...

Erani wrote...

Tietj wrote...

Saibh wrote...
In any case, I just would rather not see another bisexual elf, is all. I won't burst into flame if that's the case, though.

I agree with every part of this statement.

I agree as well. Another bishōnen bi elf would be too much. 

The only saving grace would be that Fenris is (I believe) a warrior, and thus possibly much tougher than his rather effete appearance would indicate.  And his backstory is interesting, too, which could open up all sorts of possibilities.  I wouldn't be disappointed if it's Fenris, but I would prefer a human.

The Lyrium tattoos on him prevent him from physical contact and they give him constant pain....do you think that might show up in the probable romance? How he has too bear the curse and deal with the pain?
Bishoneness aside, there's some great material on this guy.

That's true.  Although it comes with the danger of Fenris not being able to have a physical relationship at all, which would result in people complaining that Bioware didn't include a physical m/m relationship for a convoluted and somewhat contrived reason.  But I don't think they would actually do that, and yes it would be very interesting to see if that played into anything at all.

Knowing Bioware, if Fenris is the M/M romance they'll give the player a way around that wall like they did with Tali's immunity problems in ME, in dramatic and oddly convient fashion 
Still it's nice to wonder how that'll affect his overall attitude.

Modifié par Jademoon121, 02 janvier 2011 - 06:24 .

[Tietj]

Jademoon121 wrote...

Knowing Bioware, if Fenris is the M/M romance they'll give the player a way around that wall like they did with Tali's immunity problems in ME, in dramatic and oddly convient fashion 
Still it's nice to wonder how that'll affect his overall attitude.

haha Well, if Fenris is anything like Tali I'll be the first one on the Fenris Bandwagon.  It really all depends on the writing, and with David Gaider writing Fenris, maybe I should be hoping that he IS the m/m option.

[Eromenos]

TricksterPuppet wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

Someone mentioned not long ago the irritation that comes when romancing Zevran as a male only to encounter time and again his wishfulness for past women exclusively.

Zevran is a bisexual male, he is not gay so he also likes girls. He may have a preference for women but that doesn't change the fact that he does fall in love with the male warden.

I'm quite aware of his sexuality. I'm also aware that he represents an intentionally overlooked opportunity for a male BioWare character to talk about his established past love for another man, in spite of the fact that Zevran was the prime candidate for such. But-no. All women, all the time. Just like Sky in JE, the only BioWare thing resembling Zevran as far as romantic-functionality. Two bisexual male rogues who go on at length about only women having been important to them.

The JE Student and DAO Warden are treated as veritable coming-out mechanisms for those two rogues. Being made to jump through extra hoops and to watch our backs because of homophobia written into a videogame is not service to us, but a manifestation of yet another game-world wherein queer people are made to be invisible in the populace and decently outnumbered so as not to offend the homophobic segment of gamers.

Modifié par Eromenos, 02 janvier 2011 - 06:30 .

[Dave of Canada]

 So it's homophobic to introduce a bisexual character who might or might not have had relations with a woman?

[Jademoon121]

Tietj wrote...

Jademoon121 wrote...

Knowing Bioware, if Fenris is the M/M romance they'll give the player a way around that wall like they did with Tali's immunity problems in ME, in dramatic and oddly convient fashion 
Still it's nice to wonder how that'll affect his overall attitude.

haha Well, if Fenris is anything like Tali I'll be the first one on the Fenris Bandwagon.  It really all depends on the writing, and with David Gaider writing Fenris, maybe I should be hoping that he IS the m/m option.

Quirky and cute quarian mechanic= mysterious Elf warrior with a bounty on his head and amnesia? I dunno man  but I loved Tali too.
This IS Gaider we're talking about true. I'll be happy either way if Fenris is the LI or not, I just prefer if he wasn't so bishi. Hate to be shallow but its only the appearance so far that kills me.

[Tietj]

Eromenos wrote...

TricksterPuppet wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

Someone mentioned not long ago the irritation that comes when romancing Zevran as a male only to encounter time and again his wishfulness for past women exclusively.

Zevran is a bisexual male, he is not gay so he also likes girls. He may have a preference for women but that doesn't change the fact that he does fall in love with the male warden.

I'm quite aware of his sexuality. I'm also aware that he represents an intentionally overlooked opportunity for a male BioWare character to talk about his established past love for another man, in spite of the fact that Zevran was the prime candidate for such. But-no. All women, all the time. Just like Sky in JE, the only BioWare thing resembling Zevran as far as romantic-functionality. Two bisexual male rogues who go on at length about only women having been important to them.

The JE Student and DAO Warden are treated as veritable coming-out mechanisms for those two rogues. Being made to jump through extra hoops and to watch our backs because of homophobia written into a videogame is not service to us, but a manifestation of yet another game-world wherein queer people are made to be invisible in the populace and decently outnumbered so as not to offend the homophobic segment of gamers.

Dude, seriously you have to stop.  I get where you're coming from, really--I'm gay, too--but you're not helping the cause. 

Modifié par Tietj, 02 janvier 2011 - 06:35 .

[Red by Full Metal Jacket]

Dave of Canada wrote...

 So it's homophobic to introduce a bisexual character who might or might not have had relations with a woman?

Not at all, the oppostie really.  I think people are rolling their eyes at the "bisexual elf with a shady past" angle they may take again, because Bioware's done it before and they're the type to recycle LI archetypes.

Plus, all s/s romances will always be bisexual only, becau they take up so much time. One of the devs admitted it.  Kind of bummer.

Modifié par Red by Full Metal Jacket, 02 janvier 2011 - 06:36 .

[Eromenos]

Tietj wrote...

Ok, but militancy kind of went out in the early 90's.  And I'd hardly call the inclusion of a well-developed gay romance in a video game to be "crumbs"

I'm not here looking to build bridges or to make friends.

You're the one who described BioWare as throwing us a bone. What are we to them, would you say? Well-trained to make them feel good about their good deeds?

Which of the romances in BioWare games have been the gay type you describe? Zevran is not. Sky is not. Juhani's was achieved through an unreliable bug and her's was far from being a full romance. ME has refused to even mention us either in-game or in-codex.

[Tietj]

Jademoon121 wrote...

Tietj wrote...

Jademoon121 wrote...

Knowing Bioware, if Fenris is the M/M romance they'll give the player a way around that wall like they did with Tali's immunity problems in ME, in dramatic and oddly convient fashion 
Still it's nice to wonder how that'll affect his overall attitude.

haha Well, if Fenris is anything like Tali I'll be the first one on the Fenris Bandwagon.  It really all depends on the writing, and with David Gaider writing Fenris, maybe I should be hoping that he IS the m/m option.

Quirky and cute quarian mechanic= mysterious Elf warrior with a bounty on his head and amnesia? I dunno man  but I loved Tali too.
This IS Gaider we're talking about true. I'll be happy either way if Fenris is the LI or not, I just prefer if he wasn't so bishi. Hate to be shallow but its only the appearance so far that kills me.

Well, maybe he'll be voiced by Brad Garrett.  That would balance out the bishi appearance.

[Felfenix]

The best homosexual romances in Bioware games have been heterosexual romances experienced with mods. Play through ME1 with a manshep (modded to be viewed as a femshep by the flags) and romance Kaiden. It was shockingly believable.



Hell, check out this article about the modded Alistair + Male Warden: http://www.kotaku.co...-power-of-mods/



Some part of me thinks that Bioware purposely writes the dialog in their romances, the straight ones, as gender neutral with modders in mind. I think the only reason they don't allow more homosexual romance options is because it would cause them more trouble than it's worth. As far along as society has come along, there is still a lot of homophobia. I imagine a lot of boys would be hysterical if Alistair expressed romantic interest in them because they were so close.

[comicfan22]

I'm a bisexual male who has had romantic relations with both men and women and I don't go on and on about my male relationships either unless someone asks me about them.



Zevran was a fine M/M romance option but I am getting sick of the elf/rogue male romance option. I would prefer a male human mage or warrior myself, but as long as it is well written and stays away from the campiness of some bisexual/gay stereotypes I will support any inclusion we can get.

[Tietj]

Eromenos wrote...

Tietj wrote...

Ok, but militancy kind of went out in the early 90's.  And I'd hardly call the inclusion of a well-developed gay romance in a video game to be "crumbs"

I'm not here looking to build bridges or to make friends.

You're the one who described BioWare as throwing us a bone. What are we to them, would you say? Well-trained to make them feel good about their good deeds?

Which of the romances in BioWare games have been the gay type you describe? Zevran is not. Sky is not. Juhani's was achieved through an unreliable bug and her's was far from being a full romance. ME has refused to even mention us either in-game or in-codex.

Building bridges and making friends is how you make progress.  And I disagree with you about Zevran not being a positive portrayal of gay relationships, if it's played correctly.

[Dave of Canada]

Red by Full Metal Jacket wrote...

Plus, all s/s romances will always be bisexual only, becau they take up so much time. One of the devs admitted it.  Kind of bummer.

That's not really homophobic though, that's managing resources. A gay character in the game would be refreshing to see, I'm not against that, though the resources it would take away is high for the minority of players. Creating a character who is bisexual allows them to throw more resources to the romance, fleshing it out more and have more people experience it.

When somebody is calling people names and saying it's homophobic because the character is bisexual, it's a... little too much for me, Bioware are going out of their way to please the minority group instead of ignoring them completely like they could be doing and what's happening? It's being thrown back in their face, apparently.

[Jademoon121]

Tietj wrote...

Jademoon121 wrote...

Tietj wrote...

Jademoon121 wrote...

Knowing Bioware, if Fenris is the M/M romance they'll give the player a way around that wall like they did with Tali's immunity problems in ME, in dramatic and oddly convient fashion 
Still it's nice to wonder how that'll affect his overall attitude.

haha Well, if Fenris is anything like Tali I'll be the first one on the Fenris Bandwagon.  It really all depends on the writing, and with David Gaider writing Fenris, maybe I should be hoping that he IS the m/m option.

Quirky and cute quarian mechanic= mysterious Elf warrior with a bounty on his head and amnesia? I dunno man  but I loved Tali too.
This IS Gaider we're talking about true. I'll be happy either way if Fenris is the LI or not, I just prefer if he wasn't so bishi. Hate to be shallow but its only the appearance so far that kills me.

Well, maybe he'll be voiced by Brad Garrett.  That would balance out the bishi appearance.

I can see that actually happen lol! Maybe the voice actor will cut it if it comes Fenris being the LI that. I am partial to voices. That's what also killed me about Zevran <_<

[Eromenos]

Ms. Lovey Dovey wrote...

@Ernomenos You are in fact......probably quite right. But it's a game. And no matter what they do with Sexuality. It's not gonna make a huge impact for gays in society living in the real world.

It's not worth arguing over.

Actually, BioWare's products are manifestation of telecommunications, or mass media. What they create has an effect on everyone who experiences them. We all like to think that we know better than the persuasions of the media but for better or for worse we all take more out of fictions we enjoy than we'd care to admit. In this case...I'm saying it is wrong to always cast the queer community as being lesser than straight people. Who does that help? We can all agree that it is better than to not be present at all(like in the case of ME) but does it stop there? Who does it really help when we're thanking those who only see fit to dredge us up when it's convenient for them? It's certainly not for us.

[Maria Caliban]

Dave of Canada wrote...

 So it's homophobic to introduce a bisexual character who might or might not have had relations with a woman?

One of the things I liked about Leliana is that she had previous emotional relationship with a woman. Marjoline was important to her. When she said that our relationship was like what she'd enjoyed with Marjoline a long time ago, it pleased me.*

What Eromenos is saying is that he'd like to be in a M/M relationship with a guy who talks about his relationship with other men as being important to him. Zevran did come off as a guy who vastly preferred women.

*Though if Leliana was a dude saying this to FemWarden, I'm sure there would be howls of outrage that they'd been compared to his dead lover.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 02 janvier 2011 - 06:44 .

[Jademoon121]

Felfenix wrote...

The best homosexual romances in Bioware games have been heterosexual romances experienced with mods. Play through ME1 with a manshep (modded to be viewed as a femshep by the flags) and romance Kaiden. It was shockingly believable.

Hell, check out this article about the modded Alistair + Male Warden: http://www.kotaku.co...-power-of-mods/

Some part of me thinks that Bioware purposely writes the dialog in their romances, the straight ones, as gender neutral with modders in mind. I think the only reason they don't allow more homosexual romance options is because it would cause them more trouble than it's worth. As far along as society has come along, there is still a lot of homophobia. I imagine a lot of boys would be hysterical if Alistair expressed romantic interest in them because they were so close.

Bioware did, to an extent. It was on the drawing board. You can find a fully voiced romance scene between Femshep and Ashley and a partially voiced on between Manshep and Kaiden and Manshep and Thane on Youtube. They were written and voiced, but never got implemented for some reason.

Modifié par Jademoon121, 02 janvier 2011 - 06:45 .