2001 réponses à ce sujet

[Tietj]

Eromenos wrote...

Ms. Lovey Dovey wrote...

@Ernomenos You are in fact......probably quite right. But it's a game. And no matter what they do with Sexuality. It's not gonna make a huge impact for gays in society living in the real world.

It's not worth arguing over.

Actually, BioWare's products are manifestation of telecommunications, or mass media. What they create has an effect on everyone who experiences them. We all like to think that we know better than the persuasions of the media but for better or for worse we all take more out of fictions we enjoy than we'd care to admit. In this case...I'm saying it is wrong to always cast the queer community as being lesser than straight people. Who does that help? We can all agree that it is better than to not be present at all(like in the case of ME) but does it stop there? Who does it really help when we're thanking those who only see fit to dredge us up when it's convenient for them? It's certainly not for us.

What on earth are you talking about?  "Only see fit to dredge us up when it's convenient for them?"  That makes no sense, is clearly not true, and is completely offensive to the developers.  You are totally out of line.  Stop reading Camille Paglia.

[Jimmy Fury]

Jademoon121 wrote...

Kazanth wrote...

Personally I hope that if Bioware chose to not make Fenris the M/M LI that they did so for any other reason other than "because he's an elf". I can understand why people would want to avoid another bisexual rogue since their personalities are usually similar and it would feel repetitive but I see no reason to avoid a gay elf other than because it's a trope. Not trying to offend anyone, I just can't see any other reason.

Elves stereotypically in fantasy fit the gay stereotype; hairless, effeminate, overly cultured, young, frail and sometimes total wusses, hence 'Its not gay if it's an elf "trope.

I'm not trying to sound like an angry advocate for "Bara men" in gaming and you have a valid point, it's just personally it just doesn't appeal to me and it's over-used.

There really doesn't need to be a reason other than repetition though... It's not so much "because he's an elf" but because he's a fair haired, tanned, kill happy, elf. 
Not saying it would be world-crushing if he was but if he's not I can certainly see why.

And as long as you drop the "angry" there's nothing wrong with advocating bara... especially if the alternative is an outbreak of yaoi in gaming <_<

[Dave of Canada]

Maria Caliban wrote...

What Eromenos is saying is that he'd like to be in a M/M relationship with a guy who talks about his relationship with other men as being important to him. Zevran did come off as a guy who vastly preferred women.
 

I see it now, I just think the whole Bioware hates gays approach is very... odd.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 02 janvier 2011 - 06:48 .

[Dave of Canada]

Ms. Lovey Dovey wrote...

Even Leliana doesn't talk about Marjoline as a love interest. More like a dear dear friend. I noticed that.

Really? I found that after her side-quest, she talked about how special Marjolaine was like if an ex-lover and if you tell her how you want to be as special as Marjolaine was it started the romance.

[Red by Full Metal Jacket]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Red by Full Metal Jacket wrote...

Plus, all s/s romances will always be bisexual only, becau they take up so much time. One of the devs admitted it.  Kind of bummer.

That's not really homophobic though, that's managing resources. A gay character in the game would be refreshing to see, I'm not against that, though the resources it would take away is high for the minority of players. Creating a character who is bisexual allows them to throw more resources to the romance, fleshing it out more and have more people experience it.

I can see why they did it, too.  I'm glad they're paving the road at all, gay/lesbian representation in videogames is pretty pathetic in general.  I have to give them credit...please just don't make it another elf, Bioware.

Modifié par Red by Full Metal Jacket, 02 janvier 2011 - 06:51 .

[Tietj]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

What Eromenos is saying is that he'd like to be in a M/M relationship with a guy who talks about his relationship with other men as being important to him. Zevran did come off as a guy who vastly preferred women.
 

I see it now, I just think the whole Bioware hates gays approach is very... odd.

I'll agree that I didn't really like that aspect of Zevran.  But it's not homophobic.

[Dave of Canada]

Youtube isn't loading that well on this ****ty internet, so I can't see.

[Eromenos]

Tietj wrote...

Building bridges and making friends is how you make progress.  And I disagree with you about Zevran not being a positive portrayal of gay relationships, if it's played correctly.

My point was that Zevran and Sky were not allowed to be gay. In Sky's case I suppose there was no way around the fact that he was the only viable male who survives long enough to be counted as a romance for anyone. But as to that, it is my feeling that he was intended solely for M/F, with his M/M tacked on later...in a way that is horrid to pursue unless you've been briefed on how to avoid Dumb Star. I saw the obstacles for a male PC to romance Sky as a homophobic allowance for gay-haters who would come screaming to these boards about being blindsided by some ******.

Zevran too is not allowed to be gay, but rather compelled to remain bisexual for ease of access to female Wardens. Add to that his penchant for only speaking about female lovers and I feel like he too was treated as an afterthought for us. Choosing him to be the sole option for us was insulting on two counts. Physically and legally he's the outcast antithesis of Alistair. And, why restrict it to one? Why not both?

[Jademoon121]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Jademoon121 wrote...

Kazanth wrote...

Personally I hope that if Bioware chose to not make Fenris the M/M LI that they did so for any other reason other than "because he's an elf". I can understand why people would want to avoid another bisexual rogue since their personalities are usually similar and it would feel repetitive but I see no reason to avoid a gay elf other than because it's a trope. Not trying to offend anyone, I just can't see any other reason.

Elves stereotypically in fantasy fit the gay stereotype; hairless, effeminate, overly cultured, young, frail and sometimes total wusses, hence 'Its not gay if it's an elf "trope.

I'm not trying to sound like an angry advocate for "Bara men" in gaming and you have a valid point, it's just personally it just doesn't appeal to me and it's over-used.

There really doesn't need to be a reason other than repetition though... It's not so much "because he's an elf" but because he's a fair haired, tanned, kill happy, elf. 
Not saying it would be world-crushing if he was but if he's not I can certainly see why.

And as long as you drop the "angry" there's nothing wrong with advocating bara... especially if the alternative is an outbreak of yaoi in gaming <_<

True. Like (I think) said in past posts, I don't care if the male LI is elven or not. I just don't want the same pretty-boi-chic elf that looks like he stepped out of a Final Fantasy fanfic that I see all the time, and Fenris has it written all over his white styled hair, huge sword and tight fitting gear to me. I just want something different. Bara would be nice like in Varric's case, but just no more cliches 

[Maria Caliban]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I see it now, I just think the whole Bioware hates gays approach is very... odd.

Indeed.

Queer people have the misfortune of being human. This makes us grouchy and irritable at times.

[Dave of Canada]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Queer people have the misfortune of being human.

I'm a Krogan so I can't relate.

[Maria Caliban]

Jademoon121 wrote...

True. Like (I think) said in past posts, I don't care if the male LI is elven or not. I just don't want the same pretty-boi-chic elf that looks like he stepped out of a Final Fantasy fanfic that I see all the time...

Then you should be happy with Dragon Age 2.

[Eromenos]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Red by Full Metal Jacket wrote...

Plus, all s/s romances will always be bisexual only, becau they take up so much time. One of the devs admitted it.  Kind of bummer.

That's not really homophobic though, that's managing resources. A gay character in the game would be refreshing to see, I'm not against that, though the resources it would take away is high for the minority of players. Creating a character who is bisexual allows them to throw more resources to the romance, fleshing it out more and have more people experience it.

When somebody is calling people names and saying it's homophobic because the character is bisexual, it's a... little too much for me, Bioware are going out of their way to please the minority group instead of ignoring them completely like they could be doing and what's happening? It's being thrown back in their face, apparently.

I disagree. They can "use what's there." People resort to modding these games for S/S and they turn out believable and justifiable. Other than the occasional gender pronoun cropping up and/or romantic animations not quite synching, and I imagine that those issues are not taxing beyond budget or HR. What's so wrong with committing to fewer gender pronouns, or adding the occasional line where gender pronouns do work better? The animations are modeled off actors in 3-D suits.

In any case, arguing that time/resources are a crutch in this matter does not excuse BioWare for not doing better with queer images.

[comicfan22]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Indeed.

Queer people have the misfortune of being human. This makes us grouchy and irritable at times.

Maria, Maria, Maria, Maria . . .

All the beautiful sounds of the world in a single word . .

Maria, Maria, Maria, Maria . . .

Maria!

I've just met a girl named Maria,

And suddenly that name

Will never be the same

To me.

Maria!

I've just met a girl named Maria,

And suddenly I've found

How wonderful a sound

Can be!

Maria!

Say it loud and there's music playing,

Say it soft and it's almost like praying.



Maria,

I'll never stop saying Maria!



The most beautiful sound I ever heard.

Maria.




Sorry but I just had to quote some Sondheim to you for how awesome the above post is!

[Eromenos]

Ms. Lovey Dovey wrote...

I see what your saying. Gays shouldn't even tolerate being forgotten or lessened in the first place. Or added as a treat.

I understand, and agree. You've convinced me.

Even Leliana doesn't talk about Marjoline as a love interest. More like a dear dear friend. I noticed that.

Hmm. It's been a while for me. I played as her male friend albeit modded for Alistair to think of me as female. I think...I think it was possible to encourage Leiliana to talk about Marjolaine as having been more than a teacher, protector, and friend. Maybe that only comes out if the PC's really trying to know?

[Jademoon121]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Jademoon121 wrote...

True. Like (I think) said in past posts, I don't care if the male LI is elven or not. I just don't want the same pretty-boi-chic elf that looks like he stepped out of a Final Fantasy fanfic that I see all the time...

Then you should be happy with Dragon Age 2.

 eh? No, I think you misread me.
I don't want Fenris to be the M/M Li because he looks pretty-boi-chic to me. I'll pick and play weither if that happens or not, but I'm just tired of the cliches. Him being an elf isn't an issue, it's how he looks that kills me.

Modifié par Jademoon121, 02 janvier 2011 - 07:06 .

[Isaidlunch]

While I'm very grateful we're even getting gay LI's at all, I hope they turn down how much they cater to insecure/homophobic males in the future. The "I really prefer woman but I'll have sex with you anyway" dilemma and break-up lines like "But we're men..." (this line is after you sleep with him!) were a bit too much.

[Thandal N'Lyman]

Jademoon121 wrote...
Bioware did, to an extent. It was on the drawing board. You can find a fully voiced romance scene between Femshep and Ashley and a partially voiced on between Manshep and Kaiden and Manshep and Thane on Youtube. They were written and voiced, but never got implemented for some reason.

Well, sort of...

The f/f youtube was a very carefully crafted scene created by editing the game's ".ini" file to allow you to play using the built-in body models.  In this case it was done with Ashley, and a generic Fem!Shep coded in the .ini to be "viewed" as male.  There is no "hack" to unlock a f/f romance.  There was never a Fem!Shep-Ashley dialogue path that lead up to that scene.

Yes, it's Jennifer Hale's voice reading the lines, and yes they are THE EXACT SAME ONES that a Male!Shep would use in that scene when romancing Ashley.  One guess (that I think is on-target) is that BioWare litererally sent both the male and female VAs the same script.  Then every line was recorded and included, but not necessarily "triggered", in the vanilla game.

I presume any m/m youtube clip was done using the same technique.

So let's give the DA Team SOME credit here (after all, Liara isn't  female. )

And with a little help from the Community, even the otherwise restricted romance partners in DA:O could become s/s/s (that's "SINGLE same sex.":  )

Modifié par Thandal NLyman, 02 janvier 2011 - 07:12 .

[Saibh]

Eromenos wrote...

My point was that Zevran and Sky were not allowed to be gay. In Sky's case I suppose there was no way around the fact that he was the only viable male who survives long enough to be counted as a romance for anyone.

Sky is hesitant to even bring up his interest in you. Homosexuality probably isn't openly acknowledged in the Jade Empire.

But as to that, it is my feeling that he was intended solely for M/F, with his M/M tacked on later...in a way that is horrid to pursue unless you've been briefed on how to avoid Dumb Star. I saw the obstacles for a male PC to romance Sky as a homophobic allowance for gay-haters who would come screaming to these boards about being blindsided by some ******.

And some people found it very refreshing--they felt like he was a real character, who was bisexual, interested in a man, and knew that society would castigate him for it.

I liked how JE handled romance least of all the BioWare games. It all felt tacky (threesome with Dawn Star and Silk Fox, anyone?).

Zevran too is not allowed to be gay, but rather compelled to remain bisexual for ease of access to female Wardens.

As people have mentioned, this is a resource thing. Homosexual gamers are pretty rare. A romance (and rivalry, now) path is a pretty extensive thing to add for just a few players. They've expressed an interest, but right now it's not viable.

Add to that his penchant for only speaking about female lovers and I feel like he too was treated as an afterthought for us. Choosing him to be the sole option for us was insulting on two counts. Physically and legally he's the outcast antithesis of Alistair. And, why restrict it to one? Why not both?

Because not everyone in the world is bisexual.

Also, why is everyone forgetting about Taliesin? He also expresses an interest in Alistair in some banters with other party members.

[Jademoon121]

Kazanth wrote...

While I'm very grateful we're even getting gay LI's at all, I hope they turn down how much they cater to insecure/homophobic males in the future. The "I really prefer woman but I'll have sex with you anyway" dilemma and break-up lines like "But we're men..." (this line is after you sleep with him!) were a bit too much.

Yeah seeing that for the first time kinda surprised me, especially since it's AFTER the act.
There are much less awkward ways in saying ,"I don't want to continue this" <_<

Modifié par Jademoon121, 02 janvier 2011 - 07:10 .

[Zjarcal]

Ms. Lovey Dovey wrote...

Even Leliana doesn't talk about Marjoline as a love interest. More like a dear dear friend. I noticed that.

Eh, she makes it very clear that they used to be lovers.

"I used to serve her, my bard-master, because I LOVED her."