2001 réponses à ce sujet

[Jademoon121]

Thandal NLyman wrote...

Jademoon121 wrote...
Bioware did, to an extent. It was on the drawing board. You can find a fully voiced romance scene between Femshep and Ashley and a partially voiced on between Manshep and Kaiden and Manshep and Thane on Youtube. They were written and voiced, but never got implemented for some reason.

Well, sort of...

The f/f youtube was a very carefully crafted scene created by editing the game's ".ini" file to allow you to play using the built-in body models.  In this case it was done with Ashley, and a generic Fem!Shep coded in the .ini to be "viewed" as male.  There is no "hack" to unlock a f/f romance.  There was never a Fem!Shep-Ashley dialogue path that lead up to that scene.

Yes, it's Jennifer Hale's voice reading the lines, and yes they are THE EXACT SAME ONES that a Male!Shep would use in that scene when romancing Ashley.  One guess (that I think is on-target) is that BioWare litererally sent both the male and female VAs the same script.  Then every line was recorded and included, but not necessarily "triggered", in the vanilla game.

I presume any m/m youtube clip was done using the same technique.

So let's give the DA Team SOME credit here (after all, Liara isn't  female. )

And with a little help from the Community, even the otherwise restricted romance partners in DA:O could become s/s/s (that's "SINGLE same sex.":  )

Hehe I'm no tech person so I don't know how games are programmed or made:wizard:

but, the similarities between the dialogues are a little more than obvious 
Hopefully this can be avoided in the future though. Queerfolk are gamers too! 

[Eromenos]

Tietj wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

Ms. Lovey Dovey wrote...

@Ernomenos You are in fact......probably quite right. But it's a game. And no matter what they do with Sexuality. It's not gonna make a huge impact for gays in society living in the real world.

It's not worth arguing over.

Actually, BioWare's products are manifestation of telecommunications, or mass media. What they create has an effect on everyone who experiences them. We all like to think that we know better than the persuasions of the media but for better or for worse we all take more out of fictions we enjoy than we'd care to admit. In this case...I'm saying it is wrong to always cast the queer community as being lesser than straight people. Who does that help? We can all agree that it is better than to not be present at all(like in the case of ME) but does it stop there? Who does it really help when we're thanking those who only see fit to dredge us up when it's convenient for them? It's certainly not for us.

What on earth are you talking about?  "Only see fit to dredge us up when it's convenient for them?"  That makes no sense, is clearly not true, and is completely offensive to the developers.  You are totally out of line.  Stop reading Camille Paglia.

Would you characterize BioWare's stable of queer characters as being somehow inconvenient for them? They're throwing themselves on their sword for our sakes? From my point of view, I see mostly people throwing themselves onto their own swords for BioWare's sake.

I don't know this Camille Paglia person, but from what little I scanned just now I don't think she and I would agree on...issues. I'm a feminist, and she does not sound like one.

The point I'm making is that it should never be enough to feel sated by hypocritical offerings. But you and I are kind of stuck. I see these characters as being tailored for homophobic crowds. You see them as being geared for our benefit.

[Saibh]

Again, please, it's one thing to believe BioWare is doing you no favors, it's another to accuse them of homophobia. Please curb the insults.

[Maria Caliban]

comicfan22 wrote...

Sorry but I just had to quote some Sondheim to you for how awesome the above post is!

It's rare that I inspire others to burst into song, but I admit I quite like it.

[Lenimph]

Zjarcal wrote...

Ms. Lovey Dovey wrote...

Even Leliana doesn't talk about Marjoline as a love interest. More like a dear dear friend. I noticed that.

Eh, she makes it very clear that they used to be lovers.

"I used to serve her, my bard-master, because I LOVED her."

Not to mention it's hard to talk about someone who stabbed you in the back adoringly....

[Tietj]

Eromenos wrote...

The point I'm making is that it should never be enough to feel sated by hypocritical offerings. But you and I are kind of stuck. I see these characters as being tailored for homophobic crowds. You see them as being geared for our benefit.

I see them as a good start.  And we don't know anything about what will be included in DA2, so we will have to wait and see.  My guess is that having learned from people's reactions to Zevran, there will be some progress made this time.  It's cliché, but it's like filling a jar with a narrow neck.  If you try to pour the liquid in all at once, it spills all over, but if you fill it slowly, you will eventually achieve your goal.

[Ninja Mage]

Eromenos wrote...

The point I'm making is that it should never be enough to feel sated by hypocritical offerings. But you and I are kind of stuck. I see these characters as being tailored for homophobic crowds. You see them as being geared for our benefit.

Zevran and Leliana were created for  homophobic people? The answer to homophobic people in Dragon Age would be to not make Leliana and Zevran bisexual. Just because their character traits (Zevran's promiscuosness,Leliana's cliche lipstick lesbian dialogue) Doesn't mean those characters are any less in the game. Zevran is horny and Leliana is a woman of many tastes, there's nothing  homophobic about them. They're realistic and well rounded LGBT characters.

Modifié par Ninja Mage, 02 janvier 2011 - 07:27 .

[SleepyPerson]

Edit: *deleted*

Modifié par TricksterPuppet, 02 janvier 2011 - 07:36 .

[Maria Caliban]

Eromenos wrote...

I don't know this Camille Paglia person, but from what little I scanned just now I don't think she and I would agree on...issues. I'm a feminist, and she does not sound like one.

Camille Paglia is a feminist. She's one of the most well-known and respected spokespersons for second wave feminism. She's akin to Betty Friedan or Mary Wollstonecraft in their respective times.

Edit: To be sure, she's a feminist who's highly critical of feminism, and has gotten into knock-down, punch-out verbal fights with other well-known feminists.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 02 janvier 2011 - 07:31 .

[Tietj]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

I don't know this Camille Paglia person, but from what little I scanned just now I don't think she and I would agree on...issues. I'm a feminist, and she does not sound like one.

Camille Paglia is a feminist. She's one of the most well-known and respected spokespersons for second wave feminism. She's akin to Betty Friedan or Mary Wollstonecraft in their respective times.

Edit: To be sure, she's a feminist who's highly critical of feminism, and has gotten into knock-down, punch-out verbal fights with other well-known feminists.

She's brilliant but slightly crazy.  And sometimes I think she does her cause more harm than good, not that many people listen to her anymore (or even know who she is, apparently). 

EDIT: My point being that accusing people who are genuinely trying to be inclusive of homophobia will do more to hinder your (our) cause than help it.

Modifié par Tietj, 02 janvier 2011 - 07:34 .

[Eromenos]

Saibh wrote...

Sky is hesitant to even bring up his interest in you. Homosexuality probably isn't openly acknowledged in the Jade Empire.

And some people found it very refreshing--they felt like he was a real character, who was bisexual, interested in a man, and knew that society would castigate him for it.

I liked how JE handled romance least of all the BioWare games. It all felt tacky (threesome with Dawn Star and Silk Fox, anyone?).

Personally, I hated having to jump through all the hoops and having to research Sky's romance flags in order to get things started. And after all that effort, shoving away Dumb Star and banging my head against Sky's efforts to push me towards wimmin...zzzzzzz.

How does it go with the Princess? I imagine the F/F is a lot easier to seek out. I could be wrong, though.

As people have mentioned, this is a resource thing. Homosexual gamers are pretty rare. A romance (and rivalry, now) path is a pretty extensive thing to add for just a few players. They've expressed an interest, but right now it's not viable.

Is that their excuse for "But we're both men..." making it into their product? If they're going to play with our images they need to do it without degrading us.

Because not everyone in the world is bisexual.

Also, why is everyone forgetting about Taliesin? He also expresses an interest in Alistair in some banters with other party members.

Your response to the bisexual proposal is wearing thin. What it does is it continues to preclude queer gamers from being allowed the same level of choices that we might pay equally for. It functionally denies us from fulfilling the same potential that is allowed for straight gamers. Don't fall back to pleas for realism in a fantasy construct. It's the same as professing that it is right to install homophobia into fictional worlds for the sake of realism. I don't know if you would argue for that or not, but I'm trying to draw a parallel which describes how unhealthy it is to steadfastedly support a framework which harms much more than it helps.

I thought Taliesin can't join the group. Or do you mean he hits on Alistair in the alley if we bring him along?

Modifié par Eromenos, 02 janvier 2011 - 07:43 .

[upsettingshorts]

I'm going to take this opportunity to ask about preferred terminology - despite the fact it's off topic. What is the term I should use when referring to homosexuals? Preferably something informal. My position on such issues could best be described as sympathetic (at worst, indifferent to the point of passive support), but it's entirely a conceptual one - I don't personally know any "out" people.

Feel free to respond in PM as I have no wish to derail the thread.

(sort of) Back on subject: Militancy - no matter what the issue - has a habit of pushing away sympathetic outsiders, however its enthusiasm may also be infectious. It depends, but it requires a pretty persuasive individual to result in the latter more often than the former. The problem results from the indifference to or a hostility towards compromise leading to each position looking inwards in an attempt to recognize what is important to them. Therefore, militant positions have to convince outsiders that what they hold to be important isn't as critical as whatever the militant position holds to be critical - and that is a tall order. Compromise attempts to sacrifice neither while partially satisfying both but, of course, runs the risk of being ultimately unsatisfying.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 janvier 2011 - 07:44 .

[Dave of Canada]

Eromenos wrote...

Is that their excuse for "But we're both men..." making it into their product? If they're going to play with our images they need to do it without degrading us.

And some men would never say that in real life, right?

And I may be wrong but isn't there something like that for Leliana and FemWarden too?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 02 janvier 2011 - 07:44 .

[SleepyPerson]

Eromenos wrote...

I thought Taliesin can't join the group. Or do you mean he hits on Alistair in the alley if we bring him along?

Zevran was romantically involved with Taliesin. Zevran also flirts with the male party members.

[Ninja Mage]

Well what I got from the storyline was that Talisen was homosexual. He liked Zevran but Zevran was in love with Rinna. So he killed Rinna and he and Zevran slept together ( I guess). Then Zevran finds out Rinna was telling the truth and leaves the crows to kill the Grey Warden ( His attempted suicide) Then he meets The Gray Warden and finds a friend among enemies. ( I guess) Talisen was never meant to be a party member because he was a villain, regardless of his orientation.

[YoziMaiden]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

Is that their excuse for "But we're both men..." making it into their product? If they're going to play with our images they need to do it without degrading us.

And some men would never say that in real life, right?

And I may be wrong but isn't there something like that for Leliana and FemWarden too?

I wouldn't be surprised to hear it before the two got down to business,  but,  afterwards it does seem kind of strange.  

[Ninja Mage]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I'm going to take this opportunity to ask about preferred terminology - despite the fact it's off topic. What is the term

ANything but the f word lol

[Jademoon121]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I'm going to take this opportunity to ask about preferred terminology - despite the fact it's off topic. What is the term I should use when referring to homosexuals? Preferably something informal. My position on such issues could best be described as sympathetic (at worst, indifferent to the point of passive support), but it's entirely a conceptual one - I don't personally know any "out" people.  

Just say homosexuals or GLBT folk or gays. As long as you don't say something vulgar you can't really go wrong when referring to any group of people.

[Dave of Canada]

YoziMaiden wrote...

I wouldn't be surprised to hear it before the two got down to business,  but,  afterwards it does seem kind of strange. 

I've known some guys who slept with other men and didn't go in a relationship because they were both guys, they'd break it off and regret it and say it was simply experimenting. Does that mean they are homophobic? No, they did something some people do, they got a new experience in life and all that other sentimental stuff.

The fact of the matter is, they didn't persue a relationship not because they were gay but because they were experimenting. You don't even have to love Zevran to sleep with him (well, you have to start a relationship but that's easily done by accident in the first place).

My King Cousland slept with Zevran though considers himself straight, that's the exact line I used and I'm not homophobic. It's just that he was curious, got that out of system and it was over because he didn't want to persue the relationship.

Having the option of that line means what you want it to mean.

[Saibh]

[quote]Eromenos wrote...

Personally, I hated having to jump through all the hoops and having to research Sky's romance flags in order to get things started. And after all that effort, shoving away Dumb Star and banging my head against Sky's efforts to push me towards wimmin...zzzzzzz.

How does it go with the Princess? I imagine the F/F is a lot easier to seek out. I could be wrong, though.[/quote]

She's clingy. And jealous. Snobby. She'll huff and puff about you showing any interest in anyone but herself. Yes, it's easier to pursue, but it fit in with who she is.

[quote]Is that their excuse for "But we're both men..." making it into their product? If they're going to play with our images they need to do it without degrading us.[/quote]

How is that degradation? Homosexuality is not accepted in Thedas. Your character is just as likely to think what they're doing is odd and not normal.

Do you think having the option to kill children is promoting child murder? Well, having the option to be confused about why a man would want to openly be in a relationship with another man (as opposed to a quick-and-dirty secret affair) makes perfect sense in the context of the world.

Roleplaying options and all.

[/quote]

[quote]Your response to the bisexual proposal is wearing thin. What it does is it continues to preclude queer gamers from being allowed the same level of choices that we might pay equally for.[/quote]

You are buying the game, not the right to romance whomever you please. If that's the case, Kasumi, Canderous, and Sagacious Zu would all be love interests.

[quote]It functionally denies us from fulfilling the same potential that is allowed for straight gamers. Don't fall back to pleas for realism in a fantasy construct. [/quote]

Again--not your right. Women didn't have as many romances until KotOR. And then, in JE and ME1, one of their two romances is female. Meaning straight men had two straight options, straight women had one. I completely understand where you're coming from, in wanting just as many options as straight gamers. But trying to dismiss the fact that half of your party being bisexual would be unrealistic is ludicrous. They aren't.

Once agan:

Dragons, mages, magic, Old Gods, darkspawn and the like aren't real. They do not register heavily on our Disbelief censors because we know they're not real. We expect dragons to have some degree of similarity with our real-world myths (namely lizard-like and breathes fire)

Gay people exist. In ME2, over half of your party would be bisexual if they followed your advice. First of all, that sort of undermines the idea that the character is a character, and not your love toy to manipulate at will. They're always interested in you because your character dictates the universe. Some people are straight. Some people are bisexual. Some people are gay--I think you should devote energy to (politely) advocating for gay-only romances.

[quote]It's the same as professing that it is right to install homophobia into fictional worlds for the sake of realism.[/quote]

You are not promised or guaranteed anything of the sort. If BioWare chooses to have homophobic characters, well, there are homophobic characters. That's realism. When it starts to get insulting is when they start handling it poorly--portraying it in a positive light and such. But that is removed from what is realistic and what is not.

[quote]I don't know if you would argue for that or not, but I'm trying to draw a parallel which describes how unhealthy it is to steadfastedly support a framework which harms much more than it helps.

I thought Taliesin can't join the group. Or do you mean he hits on Alistair in the alley if we bring him along?
[/quote]

What? No, I mean, he'll talk about being lovers with Taliesin. Zevran will mention he thinks Alistair is hot on occasion. He'll jokingly flirt with Oghren, just to get on his nerves.

Modifié par Saibh, 02 janvier 2011 - 08:01 .

[Eromenos]

Tietj wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

The point I'm making is that it should never be enough to feel sated by hypocritical offerings. But you and I are kind of stuck. I see these characters as being tailored for homophobic crowds. You see them as being geared for our benefit.

I see them as a good start.  And we don't know anything about what will be included in DA2, so we will have to wait and see.  My guess is that having learned from people's reactions to Zevran, there will be some progress made this time.  It's cliché, but it's like filling a jar with a narrow neck.  If you try to pour the liquid in all at once, it spills all over, but if you fill it slowly, you will eventually achieve your goal.

As you say, we don't have concrete proof of anything about DA2. Truth be told I've added very little to DA2 speculation, focusing instead on BioWare's established patterns.

Would be nice if you turn out right and I turn out to be wrong when DA2 is released. I'm not holding my breath in the least, but I would prefer it to end up that way.

[Ninja Mage]

Honestly Zevran wasn't that bad to me. Just because he wasn't what some people like (Alistair) they assume Zevran was a stereotype. He wasn't

[Ninja Mage]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I've known some guys who slept with other men and didn't go in a relationship because they were both guys, they'd break it off and regret it and say it was simply experimenting. Does that mean they are homophobic? No, they did something some people do, they got a new experience in life and all that other sentimental stuff.

Thats a booty call and is VERY hurtful. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

[Eromenos]

Ninja Mage wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

The point I'm making is that it should never be enough to feel sated by hypocritical offerings. But you and I are kind of stuck. I see these characters as being tailored for homophobic crowds. You see them as being geared for our benefit.

Zevran and Leliana were created for  homophobic people? The answer to homophobic people in Dragon Age would be to not make Leliana and Zevran bisexual. Just because their character traits (Zevran's promiscuosness,Leliana's cliche lipstick lesbian dialogue) Doesn't mean those characters are any less in the game. Zevran is horny and Leliana is a woman of many tastes, there's nothing  homophobic about them. They're realistic and well rounded LGBT characters.

You might've missed the other posts I made regarding these two characters. Homophobia is a significant factor behind their creation.

1. Rendered bisexual not for our sakes but to appease those who see themselves as not being homophobic yet who would complain if LIs were gay and thus inaccessible for M/F.

2. Why bisexual and thus accessible for S/S in the first place? Queer gamers are in fact being targeted, which suggests we are not so few as people even here like to claim. It's good PR; token LIs who are not the posters yet becoming accessible to a pitiful minority plays very well. But only if these representations are limited like the minorities whom they supposedly represent.

3. The limitations- 1 each for gay males and females, rather than 2 each for straight males and females. Reluctance to feel proud of S/S relations even after consummation, both in the present and in the past. The quantity is kept lower to assuage people who might feel discomfort beyond any number that threatens a feeling of majority rule. In short, anything to avoid giving people evidence to suggest that homos are "taking over" the game world. Even at the cost of saddling the queer characters with an inability to be self-affirming. I.E., the rogues have no power and no discernible effect on the big picture. Reference back to the built-in and internalized-homophobia exhibited by Zevran.

[Isaidlunch]

Saibh wrote...

How is that degradation? Homosexuality is not accepted in Thedas. Your character is just as likely to think what they're doing is odd and not normal.

I can't say that I've ever noticed this. It seemed to me that it was accepted but just viewed as odd, in the same way a human-dwarf couple would be.

Modifié par Kazanth, 02 janvier 2011 - 08:09 .