2001 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

Dave of Canada wrote...

And I may be wrong but isn't there something like that for Leliana and FemWarden too?

Nope. However, the Leliana sex scene happens near the end of the romance while you can sleep with Zevran almost immediately. Besides, in Leliana's mind, the Maker is Santa and you're a Christmas present she's been given for being a good little Chantry sister.

[Saibh]

Kazanth wrote...

Saibh wrote...

How is that degradation? Homosexuality is not accepted in Thedas. Your character is just as likely to think what they're doing is odd and not normal.

I can't say that I've ever noticed this. It seemed to me that it was accepted but just viewed as odd, in the same way a human-dwarf couple would.

"Not accepted" in the sense that coming right out and saying you're living with a man romantically isn't viewed kindly (and probably discouraged). "Not accepted" in the sense they lynch gays, no.

[Dave of Canada]

Ninja Mage wrote...
Thats a booty call and is VERY hurtful. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

I slept with Leliana, Morrigan and Zevran. I broke out of each relationship (except Morrigan) by telling them that Morrigan was better in bed.

Then I hooked up with Leliana again after her companion quest, broke away with Morrigan by calling her a heartless **** and hung out with Leliana until we did the foursome and then broke it off with her only to go back to Morrigan with the Golden Mirror.

I stabbed her in Witch Hunt.

You can be very hurtful to everybody ingame in many different ways.

[Eromenos]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

I don't know this Camille Paglia person, but from what little I scanned just now I don't think she and I would agree on...issues. I'm a feminist, and she does not sound like one.

Camille Paglia is a feminist. She's one of the most well-known and respected spokespersons for second wave feminism. She's akin to Betty Friedan or Mary Wollstonecraft in their respective times.

Edit: To be sure, she's a feminist who's highly critical of feminism, and has gotten into knock-down, punch-out verbal fights with other well-known feminists.

Ahhhh. Damnit, I am too drunk right now to do anything more than being sure that I really know nothing about her, then. :happy: Yet.

[Dave of Canada]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Nope. However, the Leliana sex scene happens near the end of the romance while you can sleep with Zevran almost immediately.

Good point.

[Tietj]

Eromenos wrote...

Ninja Mage wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

The point I'm making is that it should never be enough to feel sated by hypocritical offerings. But you and I are kind of stuck. I see these characters as being tailored for homophobic crowds. You see them as being geared for our benefit.

Zevran and Leliana were created for  homophobic people? The answer to homophobic people in Dragon Age would be to not make Leliana and Zevran bisexual. Just because their character traits (Zevran's promiscuosness,Leliana's cliche lipstick lesbian dialogue) Doesn't mean those characters are any less in the game. Zevran is horny and Leliana is a woman of many tastes, there's nothing  homophobic about them. They're realistic and well rounded LGBT characters.

You might've missed the other posts I made regarding these two characters. Homophobia is a significant factor behind their creation.

1. Rendered bisexual not for our sakes but to appease those who see themselves as not being homophobic yet who would complain if LIs were gay and thus inaccessible for M/F.

2. Why bisexual and thus accessible for S/S in the first place? Queer gamers are in fact being targeted, which suggests we are not so few as people even here like to claim. It's good PR; token LIs who are not the posters yet becoming accessible to a pitiful minority plays very well. But only if these representations are limited like the minorities whom they supposedly represent.

3. The limitations- 1 each for gay males and females, rather than 2 each for straight males and females. Reluctance to feel proud of S/S relations even after consummation, both in the present and in the past. The quantity is kept lower to assuage people who might feel discomfort beyond any number that threatens a feeling of majority rule. In short, anything to avoid giving people evidence to suggest that homos are "taking over" the game world. Even at the cost of saddling the queer characters with an inability to be self-affirming. I.E., the rogues have no power and no discernible effect on the big picture. Reference back to the built-in and internalized-homophobia exhibited by Zevran.

You have a serious misunderstanding of what homophobia is.  I'm not going to claim that the s/s relationships were perfectly implemented but there was no homophobia behind them, and to claim that there was is insulting to the developers and embarrassing to other gay gamers. 

[Ryzaki]

Zjarcal wrote...

Ms. Lovey Dovey wrote...

Even Leliana doesn't talk about Marjoline as a love interest. More like a dear dear friend. I noticed that.

Eh, she makes it very clear that they used to be lovers.

"I used to serve her, my bard-master, because I LOVED her."

This.

Leliana is pretty overt. And she doesn't suffer from the constant: "Is this okay with you?" that Zevran does.

Really that could've been solved by having romantic dialogue only initable by the player.

Or if you're going to do the constant backtracking at least make it for both s/s options and not just the male one.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 02 janvier 2011 - 08:16 .

[Tietj]

Eromenos wrote...

Ahhhh. Damnit, I am too drunk right now to do anything more than being sure that I really know nothing about her, then. :happy: Yet.

This post explains a lot

[Ninja Mage]

Eromenos wrote...

You might've missed the other posts I made regarding these two characters. Homophobia is a significant factor behind their creation.

1. Rendered bisexual not for our sakes but to appease those who see themselves as not being homophobic yet who would complain if LIs were gay and thus inaccessible for M/F.

2. Why bisexual and thus accessible for S/S in the first place? Queer gamers are in fact being targeted, which suggests we are not so few as people even here like to claim. It's good PR; token LIs who are not the posters yet becoming accessible to a pitiful minority plays very well. But only if these representations are limited like the minorities whom they supposedly represent.

3. The limitations- 1 each for gay males and females, rather than 2 each for straight males and females. Reluctance to feel proud of S/S relations even after consummation, both in the present and in the past. The quantity is kept lower to assuage people who might feel discomfort beyond any number that threatens a feeling of majority rule. In short, anything to avoid giving people evidence to suggest that homos are "taking over" the game world. Even at the cost of saddling the queer characters with an inability to be self-affirming. I.E., the rogues have no power and no discernible effect on the big picture. Reference back to the built-in and internalized-homophobia exhibited by Zevran.

As for point 3, Gaider expressed his view on the bisexual part. It's easier to create 1 character that swings both ways with 2 sets of dialgoue trees than an exclusively gay or lesbian character ontop of a straight character.
It's not right, I agree with you on that, but 1 is more time manageable than 2.

In regards to point 2, just because Zevran and Leliana aren't on the poster, doesn't mean fans didn't appreciate them. Leliana was in the trailer, and Zevran was adored by many fans on the web. If you like their representation or not is a matter of personal taste.

And for point 1, those people who are homophobic don't play the same sex portions anyway, so for them to see an exclusively gay character or even get to that point in the dialogue would be very slim

[Saibh]

Okay, I think we've gone far enough. Eromenos, please, please stop insulting the developers. If you want to debate with someone, do so in PM.



This thread is dedicated to M/M romances and what people want out of them, not how BioWare is homophobic.



If this topic continues, I'll start trying to get mods in here and sort things out, and I'm sure no one wants that.

[Eromenos]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I'm going to take this opportunity to ask about preferred terminology - despite the fact it's off topic. What is the term I should use when referring to homosexuals? Preferably something informal. My position on such issues could best be described as sympathetic (at worst, indifferent to the point of passive support), but it's entirely a conceptual one - I don't personally know any "out" people.

Feel free to respond in PM as I have no wish to derail the thread.

(sort of) Back on subject: Militancy - no matter what the issue - has a habit of pushing away sympathetic outsiders, however its enthusiasm may also be infectious. It depends, but it requires a pretty persuasive individual to result in the latter more often than the former. The problem results from the indifference to or a hostility towards compromise leading to each position looking inwards in an attempt to recognize what is important to them. Therefore, militant positions have to convince outsiders that what they hold to be important isn't as critical as whatever the militant position holds to be critical - and that is a tall order. Compromise attempts to sacrifice neither while partially satisfying both but, of course, runs the risk of being ultimately unsatisfying.  

Hehehe, I'm well aware of the burden.

I personally prefer using queer and or LGBT, which I've learned can be extended to LGBTQIA.

Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgendered, Queer, Intersexed, Advocate. That last refers to straight people who support us all. Which I guess means all of us queers in short, anyone who is not 100% hetero. I'm sure there are more abbreviations being considered but I can't recall those atm.

I don't think it matters too much what specifically you use. How you use can count for much more than what you use. The way you wrote homosexual here is something I took in the way as it's intended...guilelessly meant to encompass all of us.

I, of course, might quibble over semantics at times such as when people mistakenly think that certain existing BioWare characters are gay when they usually are bisexual. Juhani is the only one who is gay. All other queer LIs so far have been bisexual.

[Maria Caliban]

Kazanth wrote...

Saibh wrote...

How is that degradation? Homosexuality is not accepted in Thedas. Your character is just as likely to think what they're doing is odd and not normal.

I can't say that I've ever noticed this. It seemed to me that it was accepted but just viewed as odd, in the same way a human-dwarf couple would be.

If you're female, Zevran tells you he likes men and women, but people sometimes look down on him for sleeping with men. However, Zevran is Antivan while the PC is not, and attitudes towards homosexuality aren't uniform in Thedas.

We know that Antivans tend to have more rigid gender roles and women aren't allowed to be fighters. I assume that it's a bit like the Roman attitude where being with men is fine, but bottoming is unnatural and unmanly. (I don't believe Zev is a top for a hot second.)

If you're a Cousland, your bother congratulates FemWarden on getting Iona to bed and tells DudeWarden something about being a hearbreaker if he seduces Darren. It's the same conversation no matter the PC's gender, so for Ferelden nobility, it's apparently not a big deal.

The Dalish and City Elves are struggling to survive, so they might see things differently.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 02 janvier 2011 - 08:25 .

[Eromenos]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

Is that their excuse for "But we're both men..." making it into their product? If they're going to play with our images they need to do it without degrading us.

And some men would never say that in real life, right?

And I may be wrong but isn't there something like that for Leliana and FemWarden too?

I have to ask again, who benefits from hearing that statement?

[upsettingshorts]

Maria Caliban wrote...

If you're a Cousland, your bother congratulates FemWarden on getting Iona to bed and tells DudeWarden something about being a hearbreaker if he seduces Darren. It's the same conversation no matter the PC's gender, so for Ferelden nobility, it's apparently not a big deal.

If FemWarden seduces Darren doesn't Fergus even say something like, "Just one?"

Safe to say the human nobles aren't terribly inhibited.

[Tietj]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Kazanth wrote...

Saibh wrote...

How is that degradation? Homosexuality is not accepted in Thedas. Your character is just as likely to think what they're doing is odd and not normal.

I can't say that I've ever noticed this. It seemed to me that it was accepted but just viewed as odd, in the same way a human-dwarf couple would be.

If you're female, Zevran tells you he likes men and women, but people sometimes look down on him for sleeping with men. However, Zevran is Antivan while the PC is not, and attitudes towards homosexuality aren't uniform in Thedas.

We know that Antivans tend to have more rigid gender roles and women aren't allowed to be fighters. I assume that it's a bit like the Roman attitude where being with men is fine, but bottoming is unnatural and unmanly. (I don't believe Zev is a top for a hot second.)

If you're a Cousland, your bother congratulates FemWarden on getting Iona to bed and tells DudeWarden something about being a hearbreaker if he seduces Darren. It's the same conversation no matter the PC's gender, so for Ferelden nobility, it's apparently not a big deal.

The Dalish and City Elves are struggling to survive, so they might see things differently.

Kind of on that topic, I wouldn't mind getting some of the other companions involved in a m/m relationship; that is, it would have been kind of interesting in Origins if Alistair (for example) had disapproved of Zevran and a male warden, and voiced his discomfort to you at some point, only to change his mind later.  Does anyone agree or is it just me?

[Ryzaki]

^Actually I would've liked something like that.



And really Sten should've disapproved of all romances. XD

[Dave of Canada]

Eromenos wrote...

I have to ask again, who benefits from hearing that statement?

Nobody, just like in real life?

Roleplayers benefit from it ingame, though. Gives them more options.

[Isaidlunch]

Maria Caliban wrote...

If you're female, Zevran tells you he likes men and women, but people sometimes look down on him for sleeping with men. However, Zevran is Antivan while the PC is not, and attitudes towards homosexuality aren't uniform in Thedas.

We know that Antivans tend to have more rigid gender roles and women aren't allowed to be fighters. I assume that it's a bit like the Roman attitude where being with men is fine, but bottoming is unnatural and unmanly. (I don't believe Zev is a top for a hot second.)
 

Wow, I had no idea that there was a line like that. I'm disappointed they felt the need to include it but I can't say that I'm surprised.

Tietj wrote...

Kind of on that topic, I wouldn't mind
getting some of the other companions involved in a m/m relationship;
that is, it would have been kind of interesting in Origins if Alistair
(for example) had disapproved of Zevran and a male warden, and voiced
his discomfort to you at some point, only to change his mind later. 
Does anyone agree or is it just me?

Honestly I'd prefer if homophobia didn't exist at all in DA. Sure it might be unrealistic but it's not the sort of thing I want to see in a game, even if the NPC does end up apologising. I'm perfectly fine with it being considered a bit strange but for an NPC to tell me it's wrong crosses the line for me.

Modifié par Kazanth, 02 janvier 2011 - 08:34 .

[Eromenos]

TricksterPuppet wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

I thought Taliesin can't join the group. Or do you mean he hits on Alistair in the alley if we bring him along?

Zevran was romantically involved with Taliesin. Zevran also flirts with the male party members.

Ah. The person who mentioned Taliesin made it seem like he hits on Alistair, but I guess she meant that Zevran is the one who hits on Alistair. Which, he does.

Being reminded of that, I'm even less able to envision any good motivations behind Zevran's "We're both men..." remark.

[YoziMaiden]

I was actually a bit surprised there were no reactions from party members involving same sex relationships. I think it could have offered up some interesting conversations between the group and was disappointed when I discovered that it really wouldn't be addressed at all. Of course, thinking about it now it seems like those conversations might have been offensive to some players so they probably didn't include them.

[Ryzaki]

Making it even odder that Zevran who so brazenly hits on everyone else does that with the Warden.

[Zinou]

I do not care aslong as there is no trophy/achievment where you need to do ******/bi romance.

[Ninja Mage]

Maria Caliban wrote...

 (I don't believe Zev is a top for a hot second.)

.

Oh MAI

[Inzhuna]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

If you're a Cousland, your bother congratulates FemWarden on getting Iona to bed and tells DudeWarden something about being a hearbreaker if he seduces Darren. It's the same conversation no matter the PC's gender, so for Ferelden nobility, it's apparently not a big deal.

If FemWarden seduces Darren doesn't Fergus even say something like, "Just one?"

Safe to say the human nobles aren't terribly inhibited.

When does this conversation happen? The attack happens immeadiately after you bed Iona/Darren and you don't see Fergus till the Epilogue. Or does it happen in the epilogue? Which is then a rather strange conversation to have with you brother who you thought was dead for almost 2 years...

[Ninja Mage]

YoziMaiden wrote...

I was actually a bit surprised there were no reactions from party members involving same sex relationships. I think it could have offered up some interesting conversations between the group and was disappointed when I discovered that it really wouldn't be addressed at all. Of course, thinking about it now it seems like those conversations might have been offensive to some players so they probably didn't include them.

Wynne has to comment on it with her nosy ass. She's all like

" I heard you with Zevran in the tent. How can we get any sleep? Aren't you a hero honey? Blah blah
blah blah x 10 minutes"

lol