2001 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

Inzhuna wrote...

When does this conversation happen? The attack happens immeadiately after you bed Iona/Darren and you don't see Fergus till the Epilogue. Or does it happen in the epilogue? Which is then a rather strange conversation to have with you brother who you thought was dead for almost 2 years...

You have to pick a certain option I believe after Fergus teases you for being sent to bed early.

It's something like, "It's okay, I have company."

[Dave of Canada]

Zinou wrote...

I do not care aslong as there is no trophy/achievment where you need to do ******/bi romance.

There shouldn't be achievements for romances in general, I hate getting a "reward" for bedding somebody.

Hated the sex cards in The Witcher a lot more though.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 02 janvier 2011 - 08:48 .

[Saibh]

Inzhuna wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

If you're a Cousland, your bother congratulates FemWarden on getting Iona to bed and tells DudeWarden something about being a hearbreaker if he seduces Darren. It's the same conversation no matter the PC's gender, so for Ferelden nobility, it's apparently not a big deal.

If FemWarden seduces Darren doesn't Fergus even say something like, "Just one?"

Safe to say the human nobles aren't terribly inhibited.

When does this conversation happen? The attack happens immeadiately after you bed Iona/Darren and you don't see Fergus till the Epilogue. Or does it happen in the epilogue? Which is then a rather strange conversation to have with you brother who you thought was dead for almost 2 years...

Talk to Fergus after your dad shows up, but before you exit the room. If you are going to sleep with Dairren, he'll say how he better treat you right, or he'll have your big brother to answer to. If you're going to sleep with Iona, he'll say something like "that elven girl who game with Lady Landra, isn't it? Don't tell me it's not."

I should point out that what you're family finds acceptable and what Ferelden nobility might find acceptable are different. That said, I still don't believe that Ferelden would outcast you for being gay, so long as you produced an heir.

[Maria Caliban]

Kazanth wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

If you're female, Zevran tells you he likes men and women, but people sometimes look down on him for sleeping with men.

Wow, I had no idea that there was a line like that. I'm disappointed they felt the need to include it but I can't say that I'm surprised.

Why are you disappointed?

Saibh wrote...

I should point out that what you're family finds acceptable and what Ferelden nobility might find acceptable are different.

There's no indication that the average Ferelden noble would react differently than Fergus.

That said, I still don't believe that Ferelden would outcast you for being gay, so long as you produced an heir.

Indeed. The developers have said as much. You can sleep with whom you desire, but are still expected to do your duty to your family.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 02 janvier 2011 - 08:53 .

[Aristorum]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Zinou wrote...

I do not care aslong as there is no trophy/achievment where you need to do ******/bi romance.

There shouldn't be achievements for romances in general, I hate getting a "reward" for bedding somebody.

Hated the sex cards in The Witcher a lot more though.

Gotta catch 'em all.

But I agree. Characters felt collectible when acheivements were offered and no matter what, made me feel like a douche.

[Eorion_Moonwing]

Maria Caliban wrote...

(I don't believe Zev is a top for a hot second.) 
 

I didn’t think
that it is even possible to elf top human or dwarf in the DA setting only
another elf (and Zev actually were top with the elven Warden).

[Ninja Mage]

I could never get Leliana to sleep with me so I just slept with Morrigan And Zevran..I think Leliana's romance glitched in my game or something

[Dave of Canada]

Ninja Mage wrote...

I could never get Leliana to sleep with me so I just slept with Morrigan And Zevran..I think Leliana's romance glitched in my game or something

Talk with her, get into a "romance" with her.
Do her companion quest.
She'll sleep with you at high approval.

[upsettingshorts]

At least Ninja Mage kept his eyelashes.

[Isaidlunch]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Why are you disappointed?

That people in DA look down on others simply for being gay or having gay sex, here I thought Thedas was a nice loving place and this thread made me realise that isn't so. But I'm starting to sound like a broken record so I'll shut up about the anti-homophobe saga now.

Modifié par Kazanth, 02 janvier 2011 - 08:59 .

[Dhiro]

Kazanth wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Why are you disappointed?

That people in DA look down on others simply for being gay or having gay sex, here I thought Thedas was a nice loving place and this thread made me realise that isn't so. But I'm starting to sound like a broken record so I'll shut up about the anti-homophobe saga now.

Well, you still save the world in the end, so maybe that will silence them for some years (or weeks)?

[Eromenos]

Saibh wrote...

She's clingy. And jealous. Snobby. She'll huff and puff about you showing any interest in anyone but herself. Yes, it's easier to pursue, but it fit in with who she is.

With regards to Sun Lian, that's not surprising to hear. And I don't take her portrayal as an insult to lesbians per se, but I don't know if she goes on about her past relationships if any.

Sun Lian's willingness to be (assumed)monogamous with her female lover was something that I felt could've been applied to Alistair against the arguments about bloodlines being used as one of the reasons for keeping him hetero. Granted the JE version of this probably did not make as big of a fuss over it but DAO's handling left room for Alistair to be gay or bi. If he survives as king, he and his lover are undisputed heroes after the archdemon goes down. That carries a lot of goodwill, potentially enough to override traditions. At the very least, the people and some of the nobles might give him leeway just from the fact that he's a direct heir after their previous monarch. When it comes to the issue of heirs following Alistair, I could see him bending goodwill to his favor if his lover happens to be male. Fostering was a big practice in King Arthur tales or eras, or as I like to think of it, "keeping hostages." In Alistair's case it could be more than a euphemism. He can do with his wards what Eamon tried to do with him. Just my thoughts.

How is that degradation? Homosexuality is not accepted in Thedas. Your character is just as likely to think what they're doing is odd and not normal.

Do you think having the option to kill children is promoting child murder? Well, having the option to be confused about why a man would want to openly be in a relationship with another man (as opposed to a quick-and-dirty secret affair) makes perfect sense in the context of the world.

Roleplaying options and all.

I see it as degrading just to impose a sense of homophobia in a world that need not follow all of the worst habits exhibited in our real world. It harms. It doesn't help anyone.

Similarly, I disliked running into stooopid damsels galore at Redcliffe. There are stronger women than they in other parts of Ferelden, but this feature nonetheless did nothing to make the place feel richer or interesting. Quite the opposite, those whiners brought down the atmosphere. Cheap pandering was how I looked at it.

You are buying the game, not the right to romance whomever you please. If that's the case, Kasumi, Canderous, and Sagacious Zu would all be love interests.

They'd be love interests only for M/F relationships, I bet we can agree on that.

Again--not your right. Women didn't have as many romances until KotOR. And then, in JE and ME1, one of their two romances is female. Meaning straight men had two straight options, straight women had one. I completely understand where you're coming from, in wanting just as many options as straight gamers. But trying to dismiss the fact that half of your party being bisexual would be unrealistic is ludicrous. They aren't.

I'm going to assume that you do not intend to romance as many squadmates as possible throughout any given playthrough in any game. So then, why would it break the 4th wall for you if some of them are switch-hitters? Would it even come up with any of them, to say nothing of all of them? It's as if you're assuming all potentially bisexual characters must behave like Zevran and Leiliana, who were hampered by homophobia. That does not have to be the case. If all the LIs were bisexual, you may not even discover run into that fact if your interest is only for one of them.

Once agan:

Dragons, mages, magic, Old Gods, darkspawn and the like aren't real. They do not register heavily on our Disbelief censors because we know they're not real. We expect dragons to have some degree of similarity with our real-world myths (namely lizard-like and breathes fire)

Gay people exist. In ME2, over half of your party would be bisexual if they followed your advice. First of all, that sort of undermines the idea that the character is a character, and not your love toy to manipulate at will. They're always interested in you because your character dictates the universe. Some people are straight. Some people are bisexual. Some people are gay--I think you should devote energy to (politely) advocating for gay-only romances.

You're compromised by the fact that you would hold it against them if they're all or mostly bisexual, even if such an eventuality wouldn't deny you anything in the least. Save for your idea of realism as applied to a fictional construct. Well, now. Some are straight, that's true. Some are bisexual, also true. Some are gay, true as well. But we can't use these statements of yours to defend the BioWare structures you claim exist in ME2, can we? There, not one is gay. Only females are allowed to be bisexual. And everybody else is straight. So clinging to the methodology you described has done nothing but to supply an excuse for marginalizing queer people without ever impacting the straight contingent.

You are not promised or guaranteed anything of the sort. If BioWare chooses to have homophobic characters, well, there are homophobic characters. That's realism. When it starts to get insulting is when they start handling it poorly--portraying it in a positive light and such. But that is removed from what is realistic and what is not.

Uh...what. Hmm, I think I understand your confusion. You think that I'm saying it is wrong to ever portray homophobia. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that it is wrong to always bow to homophobia in addition to mandating the portrayal of homophobia without allowing for characterizations which defy homophobic attitudes.

If all the existing queer BioWare characters were joined by stronger ones I would have...lesser...need to criticize.

Consider Samuel Adama of Caprica. That character exists in a world without homophobia and this allows him to take on roles that gay men are rarely ever encouraged to fulfill in our world. He does not have to fear being attacked or undermined specifically over his love for another man. That defiant portrayal is rightfully disrespectful towards homophobic attitudes and so its method is more beneficial to queer visibility because it refuses to be mired in tired old coming-out stories or struggles against homophobia which do nothing but paint us as people who can never escape the feeling of being cornered animals.

It's as if you would rather all gay-related depictions be geared mainly for the benefit of straight people who need educational PSAs to guilt them into at least seeing us as victims who don't deserve mistreatment. That's not terrible in itself, but there should be consideration for us seeing ourselves as better. We actually have to live it. It should not always be about how others see us. Where is our narrative?

[Saibh]

For the last time, this argument has gone on far enough and is off-topic. Everyone, discontinue this line of discussion, take it up in PM, or else make a different (admittedly likely to be short-lived, being a hot-button issue) thread.

[Maria Caliban]

Kazanth wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Why are you disappointed?

That people in DA look down on others simply for being gay or having gay sex, here I thought Thedas was a nice loving place and this thread made me realise that isn't so. But I'm starting to sound like a broken record so I'll shut up about the anti-homophobe saga now.

Thedas is not a nice, loving place. I'm not sure how you could play through a single origin and think this.

Dwarven Casteless = You are not a person
Dwarven Noble = Betrayed by your own Brother, sent into exile, no longer a person.
City Elf = Wedding interrupted by human noble, gathered up with female friends to be gang raped.
Dalish Elves = No homeland. Constantly persecuted and mistrusted.
Mage = Animal in a zoo.
Human Noble = Betrayed and family put to death by father's close friend.

Honestly, for a dark fantasy setting, Thedas is rather open-minded when it comes to sexuality.

[Eromenos]

Tietj wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

Ahhhh. Damnit, I am too drunk right now to do anything more than being sure that I really know nothing about her, then. :happy: Yet.

This post explains a lot

I didn't start out that way when I got here....

[Tietj]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Kazanth wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Why are you disappointed?

That people in DA look down on others simply for being gay or having gay sex, here I thought Thedas was a nice loving place and this thread made me realise that isn't so. But I'm starting to sound like a broken record so I'll shut up about the anti-homophobe saga now.

Thedas is not a nice, loving place. I'm not sure how you could play through a single origin and think this.

Dwarven Casteless = You are not a person
Dwarven Noble = Betrayed by your own Brother, sent into exile, no longer a person.
City Elf = Wedding interrupted by human noble, gathered up with female friends to be gang raped.
Dalish Elves = No homeland. Constantly persecuted and mistrusted.
Mage = Animal in a zoo.
Human Noble = Betrayed and family put to death by father's close friend.

Honestly, for a dark fantasy setting, Thedas is rather open-minded when it comes to sexuality.

I actually like the fact that gay people aren't as accepted as they could be; it's more realistic and I feel like it gives my warden (or Hawke) something to prove.  It's partly why I like playing as a city elf, too--nobody thinks they're anything but trash, and then one comes along and saves the world.  Take that, haters!

[Eromenos]

Ninja Mage wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

You might've missed the other posts I made regarding these two characters. Homophobia is a significant factor behind their creation.

1. Rendered bisexual not for our sakes but to appease those who see themselves as not being homophobic yet who would complain if LIs were gay and thus inaccessible for M/F.

2. Why bisexual and thus accessible for S/S in the first place? Queer gamers are in fact being targeted, which suggests we are not so few as people even here like to claim. It's good PR; token LIs who are not the posters yet becoming accessible to a pitiful minority plays very well. But only if these representations are limited like the minorities whom they supposedly represent.

3. The limitations- 1 each for gay males and females, rather than 2 each for straight males and females. Reluctance to feel proud of S/S relations even after consummation, both in the present and in the past. The quantity is kept lower to assuage people who might feel discomfort beyond any number that threatens a feeling of majority rule. In short, anything to avoid giving people evidence to suggest that homos are "taking over" the game world. Even at the cost of saddling the queer characters with an inability to be self-affirming. I.E., the rogues have no power and no discernible effect on the big picture. Reference back to the built-in and internalized-homophobia exhibited by Zevran.

As for point 3, Gaider expressed his view on the bisexual part. It's easier to create 1 character that swings both ways with 2 sets of dialgoue trees than an exclusively gay or lesbian character ontop of a straight character.
It's not right, I agree with you on that, but 1 is more time manageable than 2.

In regards to point 2, just because Zevran and Leliana aren't on the poster, doesn't mean fans didn't appreciate them. Leliana was in the trailer, and Zevran was adored by many fans on the web. If you like their representation or not is a matter of personal taste.

And for point 1, those people who are homophobic don't play the same sex portions anyway, so for them to see an exclusively gay character or even get to that point in the dialogue would be very slim

For your response to my Point 1, I will clarify that people who say that they are not homophobic don't automatically fall into the camp of people who actually understand the meaning or responsibility behind such words. I see if often...gay-support threads in these parts have people who profess it is right to include same-sex content...BUT. Always with limitations which are not ever considered for use against straight-content.

For Point 2, my emphasis was on the use of Leiliana and Zevran as "spares" rather than the main-line attractions for an issue that is still contested. Of course some people genuinely appreciated the rogues more for who they were. That doesn't change the fact that the S/S roles fell exclusively to them not because of their worth as characters per se, but because they're not the faces of DAO, and in Zevran's case, he wasn't a white male quarterback.

Point 3, like you said, it's not right. Knowing the details you relayed though, I find myself again saying that the best and obvious solution is to make all LIs amenable to a person based on his or her personality/choices, and not excluded on the arbitrary(homophobic thus far) basis of gender.

Modifié par Eromenos, 02 janvier 2011 - 09:29 .

[Ryzaki]

Eh I rather some s/s exclusive options over everyone is bi.



...I won't be able to resist the urge to make my PC a rampaging wh*re.

[dgcatanisiri]

Tietj wrote...

I actually like the fact that gay people aren't as accepted as they could be; it's more realistic and I feel like it gives my warden (or Hawke) something to prove.  It's partly why I like playing as a city elf, too--nobody thinks they're anything but trash, and then one comes along and saves the world.  Take that, haters!

Agreed - All I ask for in this matter are just a few lines of dialogue from the NPCs, maybe a conversation or two with party members where they express surprise or shock or disbelief or even outright disapproval about Hawke being in a relationship with another man (or femHawke in a relationship with another woman). Wynne's conversation with the Warden is only because she doesn't believe a Grey Warden should have a relationship, not because of who the relationship is with. Particularly if you have an opportunity to save the life of someone who is outright disdainful of same-sex relations and you can throw their words back at them.

When I play video games, yes, it's partially for an escape from reality, but I also like seeing a reflection and commentary on our real world, not something completely separate from the issue. I may like going to a better world, but I still have to live in this one, and I want to be able to at least think that by having a video game or TV show or movie or book, whatever form of entertainment medium you're using, make a reference and commentary on an issue, it will make people stop and consider the issue. A world where these things are considered non-issues are great things to strive for, but it can also in some ways lessen the impact that the message needs.

[Eromenos]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

I have to ask again, who benefits from hearing that statement?

Nobody, just like in real life?

Roleplayers benefit from it ingame, though. Gives them more options.

Well, we come to it. I'd prefer not to be stuck bringing up a self-hating boyfriend, so to speak. As to why he's self-hating, as always I blame it on an unconscionable respect for bias against queer people. Most folks seem to view nothing wrong with that.

Night night, though obviously there's more to all of this I can't wait to address later on! 

[ReiSilver]

dgcatanisiri wrote...
When I play video games, yes, it's partially for an escape from reality, but I also like seeing a reflection and commentary on our real world, not something completely separate from the issue. I may like going to a better world, but I still have to live in this one, and I want to be able to at least think that by having a video game or TV show or movie or book, whatever form of entertainment medium you're using, make a reference and commentary on an issue, it will make people stop and consider the issue. A world where these things are considered non-issues are great things to strive for, but it can also in some ways lessen the impact that the message needs.

But in this scenario... the only player who will be getting this 'stop and think' experiance are those who are trying the s/s romance, hypothetical players who don't think about what it's like to live as a homosexual aren't likely to aim for that romance and wont get that experiance, the only people who have to have their characters go through that are those who are most likely to already be familiar with this.
I dunno as much as it makes for some good drama, if it were me, I'd get a bit irritated that even in a world where people can be dragons in human form I still couldn't romance the person I wanted without getting flack for it, while people going for hetrosexual romances carry on their merry way without having to put up with that.
In the realm of Sci-fi and fantasy I think commentary on the real world is best told through alternatives like the racism against elves in DA.

[Maria Caliban]

ReiSilver wrote...


But in this scenario... the only player who will be getting this 'stop and think' experiance are those who are trying the s/s romance...

The scenario I gave was a female Warden's conversation with Zevran.

[Rivenous]

I would personally love to have more characters commenting on a relationship, should you choose to start one. Considering the entire group are presumably a bunch of strangers thrown together by circumstance, they aren't all going to have the same opinions. I think it'd be great if party members expressed their opinions on my man love. Playful characters like Isabella could comment on how they thought it was hot and wouldn't mind watching. Fenris (if he fulfills the stoic warrior role) could be made uncomfortable by it... To be honest I found it a litlle bit odd that Wynne was really the only character who had opinions on any relationship I formed.

[Bryy_Miller]

Eromenos wrote...
That defiant portrayal is rightfully disrespectful towards homophobic attitudes and so its method is more beneficial to queer visibility because it refuses to be mired in tired old coming-out stories or struggles against homophobia which do nothing but paint us as people who can never escape the feeling of being cornered animals.

It's as if you would rather all gay-related depictions be geared mainly for the benefit of straight people who need educational PSAs to guilt them into at least seeing us as victims who don't deserve mistreatment. 

So, gays in media should be a middle finger to homophobia, but at the same time, not? Make up your mind. 

[Stanley Woo]

Let's not go there, please, Eromenos and Bryy_Miller. Let's try and keep this Dragon Age II related. THank you.