2001 réponses à ce sujet

[Dhiro]

Saibh wrote...

LukaCrosszeria wrote...

 This I did not know. More characters still? Then I'd put my money on the male mage, as David Gaider pretty much spelled out Fenris would not be a LI as much as he could without being mauled alive by rabid fangirls.

He really didn't. People just keep pulling apart every little syllable. He also denied Isabela was a LI after he already said she was.

They don't want us to "know" anything. Fenris looks so obviously like a LI that being ambiguous is the only way to keep up the mystique.

In any case, if Fenris is not a LI, I won't mind. None of the DAII companions have really caught my eye yet, except maybe Aveline.

I know how you feel. Except for Aveline and Varric, the companions until now are just... just.

[Jimmy Fury]

LukaCrosszeria wrote...
 This I did not know. More characters still? Then I'd put my money on the male mage, as David Gaider pretty much spelled out Fenris would not be a LI as much as he could without being mauled alive by rabid fangirls.

Well seeing as Carver is your brother and Wesley is married to Aveline (along with another major roadblock to romance that may count as a spoiler so I'll be vague, plus i'm not sure if it was ever confirmed so... eh) - If neither Varric nor Fenris are romance options then Lady Hawke doesn't even have anyone to romance yet either.
Which means there has to be more companions to come.

[Bryy_Miller]

Oh, it was confirmed. Doesn't mean that you can't try.

[dgcatanisiri]

Ninja Mage wrote...

If Varric is the male love interest I will be so pissed. And Zevran doesn't have to look like a blonde quarterback to be attractive..Alistair wasn't that hot People, he was in the closet ANYWAY

And I was determined to drag him out of it. Alas, the dialogue options just weren't there...

Really, I don't want another elf or rogue, or 'anything that moves' style that defined Zevran. I want a man who is a human and a warrior, who isn't going to be a bed-hopper whenever he's lonely. Someone who, when he says that he loves you and you are the only person he wants to be with, you believe that he means it. That was one of the things that I didn't like about Zevran - I romanced him and let my character believe him, but I as a player was always wary that he would stray when he wasn't getting all of my attention, even with his promise of exclusivity. Also, the Latin Lover thing has never done it for me - it's actually more of a turn off where I'm concerned.

A loveable dependable funny warrior is my preferred type for Hawke.

[kalassy]

If I could backtrack just a taaaad bit, and go slightly here and there for a minute based on some comments I've seen on this topic recently: to the people saying "I don't mind as long as it's ~not an achievement~" that uh, its certainly no picnic for some gay men and lesbians to have to get achievements for making 2 straight people shack up, especially when they invest time and feelings towards their main character. I love BioWare and am very supportive of their decisions but if they truly tend to make a game free from bias and different sociopolitical standpoints, technically they SHOULD leave in s/s relationships and make achievements towards them. If not a specific person, then perhaps a specific number of people on a specific number of playthroughs.

I understand that people may not want to participate in such actions IRL, but I think I can pretty much assume that most of us IRL would be ok with slaughtering mass loads of people either, which is an integral part of the game. I think people need to really take a step back from games sometimes, and realize that these are just characters, and no combination of button pressing is going to make you more or less gay (unless, of course, you feel a funny feeling down in your pants while you do it) or straight, and achievements are OPTIONAL, and if you do want them, sometimes you have to do what you have to do. I'm not necessarily ok with killing children or the elderly but hey: If I'm hounding to get every achievement in a game (which I'm not) and its on the list... Damn straight I'm going to pop Ms. Mable or little Johnny on the skateboard quicker than you can say Andaran atish’an.

Anything other than having the option there, would be sociopolitically baised. Gay people exist... they're not something that you won't find if you go to another culture. And there are a thousand other games you could play that don't have romance options if you're not secure enough within your own sexuality to have the option of s/s relationships.

Modifié par kalassy, 03 janvier 2011 - 12:00 .

[Jimmy Fury]

Personally I don't think there should be any acheivements for having sex with a character. And lets all be quite honest, that's exactly what the DAO "romance" acheivements were for. You didn't get them when the character liked you or first hit the love-level of approval, you got it when you took them to bed.

But, my opinion has nothing to do with politics or offending people's delicate sensibilities. It has to do with approaching sex as the mature adults we should be while playing an M rated game. It's silly and childish to hand out awards for getting laid. 

[pallascedar]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Ninja Mage wrote...

If Varric is the male love interest I will be so pissed.

Too much man?

Way too much man.

[Ryzaki]

...Varric? Meh. It seems like it would lead to too many complications in his storytelling. So I'd rather not have him as an LI period much less a s/s LI.

[Eromenos]

Kalassy, I agree completely.

It is wrong to implement arbitrary limitations on every last example of queer-related material just for the sake of appeasing those who would prefer that we be seen as lesser by keeping us "in our place."

I'm not sure where some folks even come off constructing such a disparity. I thought that DAO romance-achievements had nothing to do with who you are but rather who you "get with."

ETA: Oh, I think I get it. They fear that having exclusively gay LIs might force them to play at something which makes them feel funny inside. That's too bad. But if all they care about are achievements anyway, the best I can offer is that they should suck it up in this instance.

Modifié par Eromenos, 03 janvier 2011 - 02:21 .

[David Gaider]

Eromenos wrote...
ETA: Oh, I think I get it. They fear that having exclusively gay LIs might force them to play at something that makes them feel funny inside. That's too bad. But if all they care about are achievements anyway, the best I can offer is that they should suck it up in that instance.

The only issue with exclusively gay romances ia that an individual romance is a lot of content-- content that is a tad too expensive to justify making it exclusive to a minority of players. So we get some of the romances to do double duty in order to reduce the expense.

It's not a political statement, simply economic reality. If you want to see homophobia in that, by all means knock yourself out-- but the alternative, as I've said elsewhere, would be nothing. Which would be too bad. I enjoy including such options whenever I can, and I think being inclusive makes for a better game, but translating that into a statement on homosexuality on our part is taking it a bit far if you ask me.

[Tietj]

David Gaider wrote...

It's not a political statement, simply economic reality. If you want to see homophobia in that, by all means knock yourself out-- but the alternative, as I've said elsewhere, would be nothing. Which would be too bad. I enjoy including such options whenever I can, and I think being inclusive makes for a better game, but translating that into a statement on homosexuality on our part is taking it a bit far if you ask me.

I think this is clearly the majority opinion, and we thank you for it!

[YoziMaiden]

Yup! Thanks Mister G.

[Saibh]

Can I point out (again) that real life political issues are not the topic of this thread? Why does everyone ignore dev warnings?

Also, if someone makes a comment like they don't want achievements for s/s romance, ignore it. Ignore it completely. What good will come of that topic of discourse?

This thread is not about political or social issues. You know why so many other threads get shut down about this topic? Because they become about them. About real life problems, and not things in the game.

If you really want to talk about how BioWare treats gays in their games, make a thread about it. Don't be surprised if it gets locked, but understand this is not the place for hot button issues.

Modifié par Saibh, 03 janvier 2011 - 02:42 .

[Jimmy Fury]

Ms. Lovey Dovey wrote...

Wow. Someone actually said that S/S romance shouldn't be an achievement but Hetero should?

There was one guy who said something along those lines but he also didn't think there should be any achievements for romancing males at all, even for female wardens, because he didn't personally like to play as a female.
Any further commentary from me on that line of thinking would be against the "no name calling or personal attacks" rule of the forum so.... yeah.

[Eromenos]

David Gaider wrote...

Eromenos wrote...
ETA: Oh, I think I get it. They fear that having exclusively gay LIs might force them to play at something that makes them feel funny inside. That's too bad. But if all they care about are achievements anyway, the best I can offer is that they should suck it up in that instance.

The only issue with exclusively gay romances ia that an individual romance is a lot of content-- content that is a tad too expensive to justify making it exclusive to a minority of players. So we get some of the romances to do double duty in order to reduce the expense.

It's not a political statement, simply economic reality. If you want to see homophobia in that, by all means knock yourself out-- but the alternative, as I've said elsewhere, would be nothing. Which would be too bad. I enjoy including such options whenever I can, and I think being inclusive makes for a better game, but translating that into a statement on homosexuality on our part is taking it a bit far if you ask me.

What?

For once I was referring only to the segment of players who make this a problem for all of us, not at BioWare.

But as to the other issues I've brought up, I do look at all of this entirely in the way you've described.

Where you mentioned that some of the romances pull double-duty but not all of them do, why is there a division? Why only some, but not all? It's not as if any of the DAO LIs held lesser interest for particular groups of people. They were all sought after by somebody or another, and I think that counts for much more than a homophobic requirement that the leading characters need always be strictly hetero.

If they were all pulling double-duty, no one would be left out on this aspect of gameplay save for those who inexplicably cry for "realism" in a fictional fantasy setting. And really, now...who is to even say that it'd be impossible to end up traveling with a group of companions who we might deem as functionally bisexual using only our Americanized methods of thinking?

Modifié par Eromenos, 03 janvier 2011 - 03:28 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Saibh wrote...

Why does everyone ignore dev warnings?

Wow, Say-B, way to suck up to the devs. 

[kalassy]

I'm not going to personally link back to and call the people out that I've seen making comments about the issue, because it would be incredibly tacky but yes, there are some that have made statements about it. (If you go back a few pages, you'll eventually spot one in particular I was mentioning).

David Gaider wrote...

It's not a political statement, simply economic reality. If you want to see homophobia in that, by all means knock yourself out-- but the alternative, as I've said elsewhere, would be nothing. Which would be too bad. I enjoy including such options whenever I can, and I think being inclusive makes for a better game, but translating that into a statement on homosexuality on our part is taking it a bit far if you ask me.

I think there should be a DLC for romancing the bone! XO (Or in dwarven cases, romancing the stone...) I would totally shell out big bucks to have it.

But yes, OP doesn't want these political issues to be addressed, still, it would be impossible to not mention the political things behind video games in general not featuring homosexual relations. I do hope that no matter who the person (people?) you get to romance will be a great person. I really liked Zev's character, though some people have trouble with his thoughts on sexuality. Maybe like a Jacob or Kaidan type? More towards the masculine side, but having a special place in their heart for ~romance~? I just pray it's not a Sten type though. I know he has a lot of fangirls, but talking to the guy was like talking to a wall. <_<

[Bryy_Miller]

Eromenos wrote...
Where you mentioned that some of the romances pull double-duty but not all of them do, why is there a division? Why only some, but not all? 

He just said in that same post that it was for economic reasons.

[Poaches]

I guess that implies dev's commitment to marketing demographics is greater than the commitment to the story? eh. Too bad.

[upsettingshorts]

Poaches wrote...

I guess that implies dev's commitment to marketing demographics is greater than the commitment to the story? eh. Too bad.

*facedesk*

[Wikal]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Poaches wrote...

I guess that implies dev's commitment to marketing demographics is greater than the commitment to the story? eh. Too bad.

*facedesk*

I approve of this facedesk.

[Bryy_Miller]

Poaches wrote...

I guess that implies dev's commitment to marketing demographics is greater than the commitment to the story? eh. Too bad.

No, it's because of budget. Exactly like he said it was. There is no hidden meaning here. Even though DA2 has a huge budget, things still cost money, time, and most importantly, they have to fit a realistic system requirement.

A huge budget on a project that takes a lot of money does not mean that there is tons of extra money. It means that is how much it takes it get done. Hence why it is called a budget.

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 03 janvier 2011 - 03:44 .

[David Gaider]

Eromenos wrote...
Where you mentioned that some of the romances pull double-duty but not all of them do, why is there a division? Why only some, but not all? It's not as if any of the DAO LIs held lesser interest for particular groups of people. They were all sought after by somebody or another, and I think that counts for much more than a homophobic requirement that the leading characters need always be strictly hetero.

If they were all pulling double-duty, no one would be left out on this aspect of gameplay save for those who inexplicably cry for "realism" in a fictional fantasy setting. And really, now...who is to even say that it'd be impossible to end up traveling with a group of companions who we might deem as functionally bisexual using only our Americanized methods of thinking?

We could make all the characters bisexual, sure, but that would take extra content-- we'd need to include the gender-specific variant lines (which both Leliana and Zevran had) as well as do the work on the cutscenes. The fact that we didn't do so is not homophobia. In fact, I find the accusation ridiculous. Just because some people might have wanted to romance certain characters does not mean that we wish to or even could include the content to do so. I'd like the opportunity, sure, but the ability to include such options at all for players is a plus. If you want to turn that into some kind of restriction on your right to content, then I don't really know what to say to you.

[Eromenos]

(ETA: Posted during Gaider's response)

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Eromenos wrote...
Where you mentioned that some of the romances pull double-duty but not all of them do, why is there a division? Why only some, but not all? 

He just said in that same post that it was for economic reasons.

No, he didn't.

"The only issue with exclusively gay romances ia that an individual
romance is a lot of content-- content that is a tad too expensive to
justify making it exclusive to a minority of players. So we get some of
the romances to do double duty in order to reduce the expense."

He never said that it's too expensive to make all of them accessible without resorting to heteronormative gender roles.

He only said that it's too expensive to make any of the LIs exclusively gay. Never did he claim that it's too "taxing" to make all of them bisexual in our modern Western thinking. I still see things wrong with that kind of defense but I'm leaving that particular spot alone while I wait for the answer to my question.

If he says that this wouldn't be too taxing then there's no leg left for him to stand on.

If he says that this would be too taxing then he'd still be trying to dodge the issue as to why he and his employers deem it perfectly fine to draw us as being lesser and self-hating on the basis of queer sexuality. Is that for us somehow? For our benefit? Herren and Wade are steps in the right direction, but Zevran and Leiliana were not. After the Sky headache Zevran should have been an improvement upon. Because Sky was a leading male Zevran should not have been offered as the sole choice for M/M.

Modifié par Eromenos, 03 janvier 2011 - 03:45 .