2001 réponses à ce sujet

[David Gaider]

Poaches wrote...
I guess that implies dev's commitment to marketing demographics is greater than the commitment to the story? eh. Too bad.

If by "commitment to marketing demographics" you mean "our resources are limited, especially for content that only a segment of the player base will use and which is not related to the main story" then sure. That's exactly how it is. Trying to read more into it than that is an exercise in deliberate obtuseness and not much more.

[Bryy_Miller]

Eromenos wrote...
If he says that this wouldn't be too taxing then there's no leg left for him to stand on.

If he says that this would be too taxing then he'd still be trying to dodge the issue as to why he and his employers deem it perfectly fine to draw us as being lesser and self-hating on the basis of queer sexuality.

Wow. So he's damned no matter what he says. 

Okay. I think I can't do this anymore. Have a nice night, thread.

[upsettingshorts]

David Gaider wrote...

Trying to read more into it than that is an exercise in deliberate obtuseness and not much more.

I thought it was an exercise in cherry picking. 

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Wow. So he's damned no matter what he says.

Taking such positions is a cornerstone of a militant approach. 

[TJPags]

I have no idea what's going on in this thread.

People ask why there is no exclusive gay LI.  Dev says it would be too expensive to put in exlusive gay LI.  Now these is discussion of taxes, and accusation that Dev didn't answer the question about why there is no exclusive gay LI.

Really, people just love to argue that their rights are bing trampled on.

[Atakuma]

Eromenos, People would appreciate it if you and your bloated sense of entitlement, stopped disrupting this thread.

[David Gaider]

Eromenos wrote...
He never said that it's too expensive to make all of them accessible without resorting to heteronormative gender roles.

In fact, our resources for romances in general are limited because they're purely optional content to begin with. They're not the main point of the game. Turning them into the equivalent of some kind of right that someone has to access, or accusing us of "resorting to heteronormative gender roles" is just you grinding an axe on your personal issue --that has nothing to do with why we did so.

If he says that this would be too taxing then he'd still be trying to dodge the issue as to why he and his employers deem it perfectly fine to draw us as being lesser and self-hating on the basis of queer sexuality. Is that for us somehow? For our benefit? Herren and Wade are steps in the right direction, but Zevran and Leiliana were not. After the Sky headache Zevran should have been an improvement upon. Because Sky was a leading male Zevran should not have been offered as the sole choice for M/M.

I'm not dodging anything, and this "lesser and self-hating" business is ridiculous. Those were the characters we chose to make bisexual. It was not dictated to us, nor were they chosen because they filled some kind of lesser role in the story, and we did not choose them to punish anyone. I was glad to be given the opportunity by my employers to include two such romances to begin with, and I'm pleased with how they turned out-- as were the majority of people, many of whom I've received thankful emails regarding (some very moving and heartfelt).

Sorry, but I'm not going to allow a handful of militant nay-sayers drag down what I think was an excellent achievement, one I hope to build upon in the future.

[Eromenos]

David Gaider wrote...

Eromenos wrote...
Where you mentioned that some of the romances pull double-duty but not all of them do, why is there a division? Why only some, but not all? It's not as if any of the DAO LIs held lesser interest for particular groups of people. They were all sought after by somebody or another, and I think that counts for much more than a homophobic requirement that the leading characters need always be strictly hetero.

If they were all pulling double-duty, no one would be left out on this aspect of gameplay save for those who inexplicably cry for "realism" in a fictional fantasy setting. And really, now...who is to even say that it'd be impossible to end up traveling with a group of companions who we might deem as functionally bisexual using only our Americanized methods of thinking?

We could make all the characters bisexual, sure, but that would take extra content-- we'd need to include the gender-specific variant lines (which both Leliana and Zevran had) as well as do the work on the cutscenes. The fact that we didn't do so is not homophobia. In fact, I find the accusation ridiculous. Just because some people might have wanted to romance certain characters does not mean that we wish to or even could include the content to do so. I'd like the opportunity, sure, but the ability to include such options at all for players is a plus. If you want to turn that into some kind of restriction on your right to content, then I don't really know what to say to you.

A plus? Whatever you say.

Oh yes, the scenes which include lines that refer specifically to the Warden's biological sex would include such things as the lip-synching for dialogue and kiss-synching? Those are the only elements that come right to mind for me, but if there are more I'd love to know what they are. Bet I'm not the only one.

I'm not a coder. I take it you're not either.

To anyone- How much time/effort does it take to tweak a scene that was originally crafted for M/F in order to make it seamlessly serviceable for either M/M or F/F? Having access to the source code, original teammates who created the scene, and using all the existing material for the M/F episode in question as the guiding framework should no doubt cut greatly into the time it may take to build something ground-up. We know that M/F is going to happen with many and more likely all of the LIs, so if there aren't going to be any gay-exclusive LIs then adapting all the M/F LIs seems like a no-brainer. It's what I call "using what's there." Why not do that? You've that you would "like the opportunity" to implement all the romances as bisexual so that you wouldn't have to leave any of us out. So that's something you could push at the start of your projects. Isn't that something you can all push for from the beginning?

That's just one avenue of approach for ensuring that no one is needlessly left out. Another way would cut down on one area of tweaking that I mentioned; fewer gender pronouns. These games tend to avoid them a lot of the time. The romances we've seen are often written in such way so that the lines are economically and viscerally serviceable for a protagonist of any gender. This too would be an exercise of using what's already there. That methodology is something BioWare is familiar with; weighting the majority of dialogue in such way that it is appealing and believable no matter what sex we're playing as.

[Saibh]

Screw being nice:

Good god, Eromenos, just shut up and get out of the thread. PM Gaider if you really like.

Just.

Leave.

Modifié par Saibh, 03 janvier 2011 - 04:04 .

[kalassy]

Honestly, I'd like 1 really well voiced, well done back story having bi/gay character than a bunch of quickly and vaguely voiced, windows movie maker slideshow animated type characters. The fact that BW even chooses to acknowledge one is fine with me.

I think part of Eromenos' anger (I'm sensing from the avatar and comments) has more to do with ME than DA, since ME was sort of, well, one sided when it came to same-sex relations. Still, I'm one of those people that believes in any form of exposure being a step in the right direction. Though I understand the arguments on both sides.

Modifié par kalassy, 03 janvier 2011 - 04:06 .

[Dave of Canada]

Wasn't there already like 2 warnings from the Woo to stop this whole trend of discussion? >.>

[David Gaider]

Eromenos wrote...
Oh yes, the scenes which include lines that refer specifically to the Warden's biological sex would include such things as the lip-synching for dialogue and kiss-synching? Those are the only elements that come right to mind for me, but if there are more I'd love to know what they are. Bet I'm not the only one.

I already told you. There are alternate lines which are specific to one gender or the other, which go beyond a mere pronoun switch in how they address the PC. There also needs to be work done for the variant sex scenes, and that's work that was done at a time when we were already cutting entire plots due to the lack of time available for cinematics. More importantly, every variant requires testing, which itself is a great bottleneck.

But we put the work in here because we really wanted to include something. Personally, I'm glad we did.

I'm not a coder. I take it you're not either.

This has nothing to do with coding, and everything to do with not being able to give everyone what they want just because they want it.

That's just one avenue of approach for ensuring that no one is needlessly left out. Another way would cut down on one area of tweaking that I mentioned; fewer gender pronouns. These games tend to avoid them a lot of the time. The romances we've seen are often written in such way so that the lines are economically and viscerally serviceable for a protagonist of any gender. This too would be an exercise of using what's already there. That methodology is something BioWare is familiar with; weighting the majority of dialogue in such way that it is appealing and believable no matter what sex we're playing as.

We're not "needlessly" leaving anyone out. Seriously, to listen to you talk it's like BioWare is homophobic for including this content for gay players-- but not applying that to every romanceable character, simply because you think it's easy. I'm really glad that we know better, because this sort of response would make most reasonable people not want to attempt it at all. Why do the work if we're going to be accused of homophobia either way? It's more than a little insulting.

[YoziMaiden]

kalassy wrote...

I'm not going to personally link back to and call the people out that I've seen making comments about the issue, because it would be incredibly tacky but yes, there are some that have made statements about it. (If you go back a few pages, you'll eventually spot one in particular I was mentioning).

David Gaider wrote...

It's not a political statement, simply economic reality. If you want to see homophobia in that, by all means knock yourself out-- but the alternative, as I've said elsewhere, would be nothing. Which would be too bad. I enjoy including such options whenever I can, and I think being inclusive makes for a better game, but translating that into a statement on homosexuality on our part is taking it a bit far if you ask me.

I think there should be a DLC for romancing the bone! XO (Or in dwarven cases, romancing the stone...) I would totally shell out big bucks to have it.

But yes, OP doesn't want these political issues to be addressed, still, it would be impossible to not mention the political things behind video games in general not featuring homosexual relations. I do hope that no matter who the person (people?) you get to romance will be a great person. I really liked Zev's character, though some people have trouble with his thoughts on sexuality. Maybe like a Jacob or Kaidan type? More towards the masculine side, but having a special place in their heart for ~romance~? I just pray it's not a Sten type though. I know he has a lot of fangirls, but talking to the guy was like talking to a wall. <_<

Hey,  Sten was fantastic and in no way wall like,  sure he was literal to a fault...  but damn you would always know where you stood if you were in that relationship.  He was far more appealing than the male love interests if I do say so myself

Modifié par YoziMaiden, 03 janvier 2011 - 04:16 .

[andar91]

I'm sorry, but this is downright embarrassing.



As a gay man, I can say that Dragon Age Origins is the only game I have ever played that allowed me to explore m/m or f/f relationships at all. And I'm THRILLED the option will return in DA2. Would it be neat to have exclusively gay romances? Yes. Is it practical? Absolutely not, and I don't expect it anytime soon. I don't think all of the characters should be romanceable by any gender for story purposes-I think it would make little sense for Wynne to romance someone or for Sten to pursue a relationship. It's not in their personalities or their place in life.



We can't have everything, but we can have something, which is a heck of a lot more than any game has offered me in my entire life. Thank you, Bioware, for providing me with the options that you can.

[YoziMaiden]

ooops

Modifié par YoziMaiden, 03 janvier 2011 - 04:15 .

[Maugrim]

David I'd just like to thank you and the Dragon Age crew for all the work they've done on bringing us romances of all stripes. Like pretty much everyone I always want MOAR, but realize why it isn't always feasible. Some of us will continue to push for MOAR in a (mostly) gentile manner and look forward to what we have in store in the upcoming romances. Please keep up the good work!

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 03 janvier 2011 - 04:24 .

[TJPags]

Saibh wrote...

Screw being nice:

Good god, Eromenos, just shut up and get out of the thread. PM Gaider if you really like.

Just.

Leave.

QFT.

This thread is really out of hand here.

[David Gaider]

makenzieshepard wrote...
David I'd just like to thank you and the Dragon Age crew for all the work they've done on bringing us romances of all stripes. Like pretty much everyone I always want MOAR, but realize why it isn't always feasible. Some of us will continue to push for MOAR in a (mostly) gentile and look forward to what we have in store in the upcoming romances. Please keep up the good work!

You're quite welcome. I hope to give you MOAR-- but if need be, I'll settle for giving you what I can and try to make it as good as I can. Not everyone may appreciate our choices, but the idea that we could be accused of homophobia for making the effort is a little... deflating, to be perfectly honest.

[Eromenos]

David Gaider wrote...

Eromenos wrote...
He never said that it's too expensive to make all of them accessible without resorting to heteronormative gender roles.

In fact, our resources for romances in general are limited because they're purely optional content to begin with. They're not the main point of the game. Turning them into the equivalent of some kind of right that someone has to access, or accusing us of "resorting to heteronormative gender roles" is just you grinding an axe on your personal issue --that has nothing to do with why we did so.

I'm going to believe the part where you said that all romances are given a shoestring budget throughout.

Reallllly. So you would also claim that no one has any right to demand M/F content in these games? Past actions would back up this proposal then?

If he says that this would be too taxing then he'd still be trying to dodge the issue as to why he and his employers deem it perfectly fine to draw us as being lesser and self-hating on the basis of queer sexuality. Is that for us somehow? For our benefit? Herren and Wade are steps in the right direction, but Zevran and Leiliana were not. After the Sky headache Zevran should have been an improvement upon. Because Sky was a leading male Zevran should not have been offered as the sole choice for M/M.

I'm not dodging anything, and this "lesser and self-hating" business is ridiculous. Those were the characters we chose to make bisexual. It was not dictated to us, nor were they chosen because they filled some kind of lesser role in the story, and we did not choose them to punish anyone. I was glad to be given the opportunity by my employers to include two such romances to begin with, and I'm pleased with how they turned out-- as were the majority of people, many of whom I've received thankful emails regarding (some very moving and heartfelt).

Sky from JE is hesitant to broach the topic of his feelings for a male student. Not so for female students. I have no idea if you were responsible in any way for this particular bit of unnecessary respect for homophobia. But I call this character self-hating because he was tooled in such a way as to "tiptoe around" the type of players whose heads would explode if he openly expresses feelings for a male student in the way Dumb Star might. I.E., homophobia was installed into JE not for queer players' benefit because it in fact made queer content much more difficult to experience.

As for Zevran. My reading of Sky has a lot to do with why Zevran was a subsequent failure. Yet another M/M LI who is saddled with homophobic-respective qualities. Immense difficulty in treating M/M relationships as being meaningful and equal at the same level as "normal" M/F. Add to that making him the sole M/M LI, someone who bears no consequence at all on the proceedings of the bigger picture, conveniently excusing the other male LI who doesn't bear a fraction of Zevran's negative stereotypes.

[andar91]

David Gaider wrote...

makenzieshepard wrote...
David I'd just like to thank you and the Dragon Age crew for all the work they've done on bringing us romances of all stripes. Like pretty much everyone I always want MOAR, but realize why it isn't always feasible. Some of us will continue to push for MOAR in a (mostly) gentile and look forward to what we have in store in the upcoming romances. Please keep up the good work!

You're quite welcome. I hope to give you MOAR-- but if need be, I'll settle for giving you what I can and try to make it as good as I can. Not everyone may appreciate our choices, but the idea that we could be accused of homophobia for making the effort is a little... deflating, to be perfectly honest.

Yeah, the idea that your team (that you are a part of and Bioware at large) is homophobic is a little strange, seeing as how a good amount of your games provide homosexual options to some degree.  It really is appreciated by a lot of people.  I also liked reading about a gay couple in The Calling, which surprised me (although my gaydar bleeped slightly as soon as I was introduced to the two characters lol.  I guess that just means you're a good writer if I can read a book of yours and my gaydar functions.)
@ Eromeos:  You don't think Sky's hesitation might have something to do with a fear of being ridiculed as gay?  I've never played that game, but that's how I would take it, and I know many gay men who would hesitate to romantically approach someone because they know they might not be gay and/or might react even violently.  It's not tiptoing around anything, it's realistic.

Modifié par andar91, 03 janvier 2011 - 04:27 .

[dgcatanisiri]

What traits do the rest of you want out of the man Hawke will be able to romance? I still say that I want a human love interest, not an elf or dwarf. As amusing as Cassandra's reactions to Varric going into intimate detail of his relations with Hawke would be, I doubt he'll be an LI at all. And I don't want an elf again after the last game, as I would hope that in sequels, things can open up a bit - ME2 offered three options as opposed to the two of the previous game, and varied the available species. I hope to see the same opening of romance options in DA2.

But as the LI will be bisexual, I would like to not have to hear him bragging about his exploits with women like Zevran did - bad form to constantly discuss your exes with your current, particularly when they're mostly if not entirely of the opposite gender, as it leaves an impression to me at least that you're an experimental fling, and will leave once a pretty thing in a skirt wanders by.

[TJPags]

Eromenos wrote...

I'm going to believe the part where you said that all romances are given a shoestring budget throughout.

Reallllly. So you would also claim that no one has any right to demand M/F content in these games? Past actions would back up this proposal then?

I tell you, being a dev for Bioware, I guess you have to be a saint.

My personal response to you would be, no, nobody has a right to demand anything in any game.  Yoy get what you get.

And if I was writing for this or any other franchise, and had to deal with the vitriol coming from you, I'd cut any and all romance out.  Would that make you happy?  Is this a dating sim to you?

Did you ever think that some characters are hesitant to bring up relations with a same sex PC because, you know, not every PC is gay?

[Eromenos]

kalassy wrote...

Honestly, I'd like 1 really well voiced, well done back story having bi/gay character than a bunch of quickly and vaguely voiced, windows movie maker slideshow animated type characters. The fact that BW even chooses to acknowledge one is fine with me.

I think part of Eromenos' anger (I'm sensing from the avatar and comments) has more to do with ME than DA, since ME was sort of, well, one sided when it came to same-sex relations. Still, I'm one of those people that believes in any form of exposure being a step in the right direction. Though I understand the arguments on both sides.

Spot-on.

I do see DA as being infinitely better than ME in this regard. But that is not the same as pretending as if DA did not have serious flaws. Both of them exploited queer images IMO. That area of ME was unforgivable. DA allows promise, but so far DA's only claim to fame has been including a handful of functionally bisexual npcs, albeit half of them without names in the Pearl. Zevran specifically...well, I wrote plenty on that lately. Leiliana is better IMO assuming someone is focused on her to the point where she is the only one who is important...Leiliana does not dredge up homophobia to the degree that Zevran does, since Leiliana's past with Marjolaine is less about the fact that they were 2 women but rather more about betrayal from the teacher she passionately loved. Plus...she loved another woman. That is significant.

I'm not content with being afforded less. It's not just here, however in here there sure seem to be a lot of people willing to help make this issue tangible.

Modifié par Eromenos, 03 janvier 2011 - 04:33 .

[Rakumn]

TJPags wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

I'm going to believe the part where you said that all romances are given a shoestring budget throughout.

Reallllly. So you would also claim that no one has any right to demand M/F content in these games? Past actions would back up this proposal then?

I tell you, being a dev for Bioware, I guess you have to be a saint.

My personal response to you would be, no, nobody has a right to demand anything in any game.  Yoy get what you get.

And if I was writing for this or any other franchise, and had to deal with the vitriol coming from you, I'd cut any and all romance out.  Would that make you happy?  Is this a dating sim to you?

Did you ever think that some characters are hesitant to bring up relations with a same sex PC because, you know, not every PC is gay?

Seriously, this.

They didn't have to include any of it-- But they did. Be thankful for the privlege.


So not everyone is gay/Bi/straight. That's not how it is anywhere.

Modifié par Rakumn, 03 janvier 2011 - 04:35 .

[YoziMaiden]

While, I probably will only check out the M/M stuff once. I would admittedly like this love interest to actually not be... quite so effeminate. I could care less about the race. I do admit, the idea of an honorable and strong warrior who swears vassalage to Hawke out of love and mutual respect for the character sort of like... a lord and samurai romance might even get me a little... hot under the collar.

[upsettingshorts]

Rakumn wrote...

Be thankful for the privlege.

Congrats, you just handed Ero a loaded gun.