2001 réponses à ce sujet

[drahelvete]

Didn't Sky have a dead wife and daughter? Maybe he had never experienced M/M before and was simply a little hesitant...?

[Ninja Mage]

I really appreciate the same sex content Gaider. Please don't listen to Eornomus. I understand not all the characters are bisexual and that you have limited resources. And I appreciate the time your team does put into all the romances

[David Gaider]

Eromenos wrote...
So you would also claim that no one has any right to demand M/F content in these games?

Correct. We didn't include romances in Awakening, for instance, even though people wanted them.

And if we do include them, heterosexual romances get first priority. Why? Because they are, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the majority of our audience. The amount of work we can justify doing for any content is directly related to the size of the audience that has the potential to see it. Nobody has a right to content, and while there is a certain amount of responsibility we willingly take on when we cross the line and include content which requires sensitiivity in our portrayal that does not mean the only criteria we then approach it with are vague issues of "fairness". The economics of the situation do not vanish simply because they are inconvenient for anyone with a social issue they think needs addressing.

As for Zevran. My reading of Sky has a lot to do with why Zevran was a subsequent failure. Yet another M/M LI who is saddled with homophobic-respective qualities. Immense difficulty in treating M/M relationships as being meaningful and equal at the same level as "normal" M/F. Add to that making him the sole M/M LI, someone who bears no consequence at all on the proceedings of the bigger picture, conveniently excusing the other male LI who doesn't bear a fraction of Zevran's negative stereotypes.

Zevran treated all relationships as casual and lacking in meaning, not just M/M relationships. You had to dig much deeper before you discovered that this was due to his background, and that getting him to actually care about you put him on what he considered uncomfortable ground. Beyond that, however, his romance was equally accessible to both male and female players.

The fact that you see him as serving a lesser role in the overall story has nothing to do with why I chose him as the bisexual romance. It does, however, evidently provide you a convenient excuse to make accusations because we didn't go as far as you think we should have.

Really, I think I've responded to you far more than I should have. You're clearly determined to read what you want into our actions, and won't accept explanations as being anything other than excuses or oppression. As someone else above said, it's embarassing. I don't doubt we could do better, as we always can, but you seem rather determined to turn an ally into an enemy. I hope, for your sake, that you manage to take some pleasure amidst all the inevitable disappointment.

[RosaAquafire]

David, let me just say -- please, please do not get deflated. Like you yourself say so many times, the angry people are ALWAYS the more vocal, because they have something to complain about. I can't even describe how thankful I am for the fact that Bioware does include homosexual content, ESPECIALLY male/male content. For every person who's offended at what a "flambouyant stereotype" Zevran was, there's five people who fell in love with him and felt included and accepted by their favourite form of art for the first time ever.

Seriously, the fact that Bioware -- and you in particular -- have gone to the mat to provide homosexual content is one of the things that makes me recommend your games to everyone I can. There's a lot of other factors, of course, but I respect you sticking to your guns and doing something that could get you a lot of detractors.

My gay brother cried playing DA:O. I know, that makes HIM sound like a feminine stereotype, too, but he was so overcome by feeling included by this industry for the first time ever, it was like, a life-changing moment for him.

But it's not just for him that I love what you've done with homosexual content in DA:O. It's just an issue that's very important to me, personally, for my own reasons separate from him. Not only am I impressed that the content is THERE, I was amazed in my own gay Wardens' romances with Leliana and Zevran just how much same sex specific dialogue there was.

Please don't feel demoralized by people who are offended by anything. Of course, having more would be wonderful, we always want more, but most of us accept time and money constraints, and are just so happy that you're one of the only game companies who even try.

Thanks for fighting for us, David.

In before "AW YOU BROWN NOSER."

[YoziMaiden]

RosaAquafire wrote...

David, let me just say -- please, please do not get deflated. Like you yourself say so many times, the angry people are ALWAYS the more vocal, because they have something to complain about. I can't even describe how thankful I am for the fact that Bioware does include homosexual content, ESPECIALLY male/male content. For every person who's offended at what a "flambouyant stereotype" Zevran was, there's five people who fell in love with him and felt included and accepted by their favourite form of art for the first time ever.
Seriously, the fact that Bioware -- and you in particular -- have gone to the mat to provide homosexual content is one of the things that makes me recommend your games to everyone I can. There's a lot of other factors, of course, but I respect you sticking to your guns and doing something that could get you a lot of detractors.
My gay brother cried playing DA:O. I know, that makes HIM sound like a feminine stereotype, too, but he was so overcome by feeling included by this industry for the first time ever, it was like, a life-changing moment for him.
But it's not just for him that I love what you've done with homosexual content in DA:O. It's just an issue that's very important to me, personally, for my own reasons separate from him. Not only am I impressed that the content is THERE, I was amazed in my own gay Wardens' romances with Leliana and Zevran just how much same sex specific dialogue there was.
Please don't feel demoralized by people who are offended by anything. Of course, having more would be wonderful, we always want more, but most of us accept time and money constraints, and are just so happy that you're one of the only game companies who even try.
Thanks for fighting for us, David.
In before "AW YOU BROWN NOSER."

+1

[andar91]

RosaAquafire wrote...

David, let me just say -- please, please do not get deflated. Like you yourself say so many times, the angry people are ALWAYS the more vocal, because they have something to complain about. I can't even describe how thankful I am for the fact that Bioware does include homosexual content, ESPECIALLY male/male content. For every person who's offended at what a "flambouyant stereotype" Zevran was, there's five people who fell in love with him and felt included and accepted by their favourite form of art for the first time ever.
Seriously, the fact that Bioware -- and you in particular -- have gone to the mat to provide homosexual content is one of the things that makes me recommend your games to everyone I can. There's a lot of other factors, of course, but I respect you sticking to your guns and doing something that could get you a lot of detractors.
My gay brother cried playing DA:O. I know, that makes HIM sound like a feminine stereotype, too, but he was so overcome by feeling included by this industry for the first time ever, it was like, a life-changing moment for him.
But it's not just for him that I love what you've done with homosexual content in DA:O. It's just an issue that's very important to me, personally, for my own reasons separate from him. Not only am I impressed that the content is THERE, I was amazed in my own gay Wardens' romances with Leliana and Zevran just how much same sex specific dialogue there was.
Please don't feel demoralized by people who are offended by anything. Of course, having more would be wonderful, we always want more, but most of us accept time and money constraints, and are just so happy that you're one of the only game companies who even try.
Thanks for fighting for us, David.
In before "AW YOU BROWN NOSER."

Oh Captain, my Captain!

Someone had to say it.

[SleepyPerson]

dgcatanisiri wrote...

What traits do the rest of you want out of the man Hawke will be able to romance? I still say that I want a human love interest, not an elf or dwarf. As amusing as Cassandra's reactions to Varric going into intimate detail of his relations with Hawke would be, I doubt he'll be an LI at all. 

Varric: Hawke an I knew each other on a very intimate level.
Cassandra: *eyes get wide open*
Varric: Why are you looking at me like that?
Cassandra: It's just you're so... I wish I was a boy.
Varric: *facepalm* not another fangirl..

 But as the LI will be bisexual, I would like to not have to hear him bragging about his exploits with women like Zevran did - bad form to constantly discuss your exes with your current, particularly when they're mostly if not entirely of the opposite gender, as it leaves an impression to me at least that you're an experimental fling, and will leave once a pretty thing in a skirt wanders by.

Zevran did seem like that at first but when your far into the romance he doesn't seem very much like that anymore, like when he offers the earring. But I too would prefer a LI not brag about his exploits with women.

[Rakumn]

RosaAquafire wrote...

David, let me just say -- please, please do not get deflated. Like you yourself say so many times, the angry people are ALWAYS the more vocal, because they have something to complain about. I can't even describe how thankful I am for the fact that Bioware does include homosexual content, ESPECIALLY male/male content. For every person who's offended at what a "flambouyant stereotype" Zevran was, there's five people who fell in love with him and felt included and accepted by their favourite form of art for the first time ever.
Seriously, the fact that Bioware -- and you in particular -- have gone to the mat to provide homosexual content is one of the things that makes me recommend your games to everyone I can. There's a lot of other factors, of course, but I respect you sticking to your guns and doing something that could get you a lot of detractors.
My gay brother cried playing DA:O. I know, that makes HIM sound like a feminine stereotype, too, but he was so overcome by feeling included by this industry for the first time ever, it was like, a life-changing moment for him.
But it's not just for him that I love what you've done with homosexual content in DA:O. It's just an issue that's very important to me, personally, for my own reasons separate from him. Not only am I impressed that the content is THERE, I was amazed in my own gay Wardens' romances with Leliana and Zevran just how much same sex specific dialogue there was.
Please don't feel demoralized by people who are offended by anything. Of course, having more would be wonderful, we always want more, but most of us accept time and money constraints, and are just so happy that you're one of the only game companies who even try.
Thanks for fighting for us, David.
In before "AW YOU BROWN NOSER."

\\o/ Yes.

[Bryy_Miller]

andar91 wrote...

RosaAquafire wrote...

David, let me just say -- please, please do not get deflated. Like you yourself say so many times, the angry people are ALWAYS the more vocal, because they have something to complain about. I can't even describe how thankful I am for the fact that Bioware does include homosexual content, ESPECIALLY male/male content. For every person who's offended at what a "flambouyant stereotype" Zevran was, there's five people who fell in love with him and felt included and accepted by their favourite form of art for the first time ever.
Seriously, the fact that Bioware -- and you in particular -- have gone to the mat to provide homosexual content is one of the things that makes me recommend your games to everyone I can. There's a lot of other factors, of course, but I respect you sticking to your guns and doing something that could get you a lot of detractors.
My gay brother cried playing DA:O. I know, that makes HIM sound like a feminine stereotype, too, but he was so overcome by feeling included by this industry for the first time ever, it was like, a life-changing moment for him.
But it's not just for him that I love what you've done with homosexual content in DA:O. It's just an issue that's very important to me, personally, for my own reasons separate from him. Not only am I impressed that the content is THERE, I was amazed in my own gay Wardens' romances with Leliana and Zevran just how much same sex specific dialogue there was.
Please don't feel demoralized by people who are offended by anything. Of course, having more would be wonderful, we always want more, but most of us accept time and money constraints, and are just so happy that you're one of the only game companies who even try.
Thanks for fighting for us, David.
In before "AW YOU BROWN NOSER."

Oh Captain, my Captain!

Someone had to say it.

David Gaider: Thank you, boys.

*exits room*

Someone do this. Now.

[Maria Caliban]

TricksterPuppet wrote...

Varric: Hawke an I knew each other on a very intimate level.
Cassandra: *eyes get wide open*
Varric: Why are you looking at me like that?
Cassandra: It's just you're so... I wish I was a boy.
Varric: *facepalm* not another fangirl..

So far, for possible love interests, we have Fenris and Varric. Fenris strikes me as M/F and Varric as buddy but not lover. There's "Anders," who is a human mage but not even be a companion. I also remember archery guy, who's a longshot.

When I said I worried about there being no M/M romance, Mary popped in to tease me. Maybe that's because Varric is a romance.

[andar91]

Maria Caliban wrote...

TricksterPuppet wrote...

Varric: Hawke an I knew each other on a very intimate level.
Cassandra: *eyes get wide open*
Varric: Why are you looking at me like that?
Cassandra: It's just you're so... I wish I was a boy.
Varric: *facepalm* not another fangirl..

So far, for possible love interests, we have Fenris and Varric. Fenris strikes me as M/F and Varric as buddy but not lover. There's "Anders," who is a human mage but not even be a companion. I also remember archery guy, who's a longshot.

When I said I worried about there being no M/M romance, Mary popped in to tease me. Maybe that's because Varric is a romance.

Didn't Mike or somebody say at some point in the past that they probably wouldn't use a dwarf for a romance option because too many people find dwarves less attractive than elves and humans?  I'm sort off in that group.  I mean, dwarves can be good-looking, but I wouldn't romance one.  Nothing against the dwarf lovers.

[Ryzaki]

Honestly the hostility in this thread makes me sad.



Sure the romances weren't perfect but nothing is. And Zevran was to me a good option (particularly when you bothered digging underneath the surface).



And yes thanks from me as well David.

[Rakumn]

I would love Varric to be a romance-- and so would another three-hundred or so fanboys and fangirls.

[Tietj]

RosaAquafire wrote...

David, let me just say -- please, please do not get deflated. Like you yourself say so many times, the angry people are ALWAYS the more vocal, because they have something to complain about. I can't even describe how thankful I am for the fact that Bioware does include homosexual content, ESPECIALLY male/male content. For every person who's offended at what a "flambouyant stereotype" Zevran was, there's five people who fell in love with him and felt included and accepted by their favourite form of art for the first time ever.
Seriously, the fact that Bioware -- and you in particular -- have gone to the mat to provide homosexual content is one of the things that makes me recommend your games to everyone I can. There's a lot of other factors, of course, but I respect you sticking to your guns and doing something that could get you a lot of detractors.
My gay brother cried playing DA:O. I know, that makes HIM sound like a feminine stereotype, too, but he was so overcome by feeling included by this industry for the first time ever, it was like, a life-changing moment for him.
But it's not just for him that I love what you've done with homosexual content in DA:O. It's just an issue that's very important to me, personally, for my own reasons separate from him. Not only am I impressed that the content is THERE, I was amazed in my own gay Wardens' romances with Leliana and Zevran just how much same sex specific dialogue there was.
Please don't feel demoralized by people who are offended by anything. Of course, having more would be wonderful, we always want more, but most of us accept time and money constraints, and are just so happy that you're one of the only game companies who even try.
Thanks for fighting for us, David.
In before "AW YOU BROWN NOSER."

Very eloquent, and I agree with this post 100%

[tmp7704]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I also remember archery guy, who's a longshot.

That would mean yet another rogue in the team with two already there though, and one specced exactly like Varric who is also ranged rogue... it doesn't feel too plausible. Although granted, the game has few classes and specs so it's bound to run into very similar repeats pretty fast.

If this archery guy does turn out to be a companion... poor Aveline.

[David Gaider]

RosaAquafire wrote...
My gay brother cried playing DA:O. I know, that makes HIM sound like a feminine stereotype, too, but he was so overcome by feeling included by this industry for the first time ever, it was like, a life-changing moment for him.

I received an email from a young man who said DA:O helped him come out to his gamer brother-- and this was someone who, he told me, had never come out to anyone. It was so emotionally raw it was difficult to read, but I was glad to receive it nonetheless. Sometimes it's easier to pay attention to the loud, obnoxious folks because it seems like they're the ones most demanding a response... but it's also nice to hear sometimes that you've had an effect on someone.

So thanks. And cheers to your brother.

[Eromenos]

David Gaider wrote...

I already told you. There are alternate lines which are specific to one gender or the other, which go beyond a mere pronoun switch in how they address the PC. There also needs to be work done for the variant sex scenes, and that's work that was done at a time when we were already cutting entire plots due to the lack of time available for cinematics. More importantly, every variant requires testing, which itself is a great bottleneck.

But we put the work in here because we really wanted to include something. Personally, I'm glad we did.

The sex-scenes? I've used the devconsole hack to play as a male elf Warden whom Alistair treats as female. There was nothing that didn't fit there. The heads didn't line up at first during kisses, but the sex-scenes were flawless and that was just my male character's model taking on the "female" animations.

Personally...I can do without sex-scenes since they seem to be unnecessary and poorly-handled all throughout. I would also prefer if those resources were devoted towards writing, plots. Just saying though, what's there can be proven to work well for S/S even if marketing gets their way by screaming for more skin.

Alternate lines...can you elaborate on this? I'm guessing demon-baby and contests for the throne. Maybe not. But if so, then...a FWarden with Morrigan could have been presented with all the same choices that a MWarden has, but minus the option to spawn with her. That isn't adding lines, that's actually reducing lines. That wouldn't be homophobia at all. It would be merely acknowledgment of biological functionality. Plus, everyone who loves her ends up losing her. As for the MWarden's place in Alistair's life...Sun Lian in JE has no qualms about elevating her girlfriend beside her in the eyes of her people. Why not Alistair too, for his boyfriend? They would use all the preexisting lines for M/F but would also cut out the ones having to do with breeding, just like with Morrigan. I'm assuming the lines that remain do not need to carry gender pronouns, even if they did. There are potential endings in which Alistair and the Warden can be happy as rulers who do not promise any heirs.

Come to think of it, I'm not sure Grey Wardens can produce "normal" babies at all. Either way...the issue of breeding does not even have to be visited.

That's just one avenue of approach for ensuring that no one is needlessly left out. Another way would cut down on one area of tweaking that I mentioned; fewer gender pronouns. These games tend to avoid them a lot of the time. The romances we've seen are often written in such way so that the lines are economically and viscerally serviceable for a protagonist of any gender. This too would be an exercise of using what's already there. That methodology is something BioWare is familiar with; weighting the majority of dialogue in such way that it is appealing and believable no matter what sex we're playing as.

We're not "needlessly" leaving anyone out. Seriously, to listen to you talk it's like BioWare is homophobic for including this content for gay players-- but not applying that to every romanceable character, simply because you think it's easy. I'm really glad that we know better, because this sort of response would make most reasonable people not want to attempt it at all. Why do the work if we're going to be accused of homophobia either way? It's more than a little insulting.

Care to actually answer my proposal which you quoted? I still remain curious.

Early classes tomorrow, hate to tear myself away!

Modifié par Eromenos, 03 janvier 2011 - 05:09 .

[SleepyPerson]

Maria Caliban wrote...

TricksterPuppet wrote...

Varric: Hawke an I knew each other on a very intimate level.
Cassandra: *eyes get wide open*
Varric: Why are you looking at me like that?
Cassandra: It's just you're so... I wish I was a boy.
Varric: *facepalm* not another fangirl..

So far, for possible love interests, we have Fenris and Varric. Fenris strikes me as M/F and Varric as buddy but not lover. There's "Anders," who is a human mage but not even be a companion. I also remember archery guy, who's a longshot.

When I said I worried about there being no M/M romance, Mary popped in to tease me. Maybe that's because Varric is a romance.

I also see Fenris as M/F and Varric I'm actually hoping he is more of a buddy. Whenever I imagine Varric as LI, I end up picturing myself dating a midget (I don't know the nice word to say xD) and I start laughing, which isn't a very nice thing to laugh about. I'm probably in the minority but I don't want Anders as a companion, I liked him in awakening but I like seeing new companions =P

[Ninja Mage]

Isolde- Do nah listen to zis man, Gaider



lol

[Daewan]

Oh is it thank Gaider time again? Thank you for writing such great stuff, Mr. Gaider!

[Maria Caliban]

andar91 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

TricksterPuppet wrote...

Varric: Hawke an I knew each other on a very intimate level.
Cassandra: *eyes get wide open*
Varric: Why are you looking at me like that?
Cassandra: It's just you're so... I wish I was a boy.
Varric: *facepalm* not another fangirl..

So far, for possible love interests, we have Fenris and Varric. Fenris strikes me as M/F and Varric as buddy but not lover. There's "Anders," who is a human mage but not even be a companion. I also remember archery guy, who's a longshot.

When I said I worried about there being no M/M romance, Mary popped in to tease me. Maybe that's because Varric is a romance.

Didn't Mike or somebody say at some point in the past that they probably wouldn't use a dwarf for a romance option because too many people find dwarves less attractive than elves and humans?  I'm sort off in that group.  I mean, dwarves can be good-looking, but I wouldn't romance one.  Nothing against the dwarf lovers.

I have nothing against a dwarven romance. I thought Sigrun in Awakening was adorable and would gladly take her behind a tree for a slap and tickle. Alternatively, people found Garrus and Thane to be attractive, wherein they're outside 'human enough' line for me.

It's unfortunate if they've ruled out dwarves altogether but I understand they're just not well liked. Certainly not as much as elves or human.

When I say 'archery guy,' I'm just talking about the blond fellow in the back of the group pick. He's wearing heavier armor, but can't figure out what he's wielding.

[Ninja Mage]

Gaider ignored me again ~tear~

[tmp7704]

Eromenos wrote...

The sex-scenes? I've used the devconsole hack to play as a male elf Warden whom Alistair treats as female. There was nothing that didn't fit there. The heads didn't line up at first during kisses, but the sex-scenes were flawless and that was just my male character's model taking on the "female" animations.

Male elves in DA are very similar in size and proportions to human females, it's not too surprising such change would more or less fit (even so, you do note things don't line up in parts of the sequence)

The issues become quite more pronounced when it comes to human males and dwarf males who have no female equivalents size- and proportions-wise. These may require some extensive tweaks if not a separate animation altogether -- the differences between bodies are large enough to prevent the sequences from being "one size fits all".

[YoziMaiden]

I just want to say something here, I really do my best to never be serious on the internet but this thread is getting out of hand. As for why everyone isn't bi in DA:O Alistair despite all of his quirkiness and ****ing about the chantry was a traditionalist at heart. It took work for him to not end even female relationships after becoming king. As for Morrigan and F/F she seemed like she was pretty much tied to what she perceived to be as the natural order of things... which oddly enough made her far more traditional then the religious fanatic.



I think stripping away the characters quirks simply for the case of inclusiveness would be foolish.



Sure would I enjoy characters that were strictly homosexual? Yes? I would also enjoy romances that varied by gender even for bisexual characters. I would also like to use to use Shapeshifter specialization to turn into Dragon. Two of those aren't quite feasible because of money, and I fear the last would just be plain game breaking.



I would also like to stray away from all this oh so serious talk, this if a forum about a game and not about politics and using it as a soap box is making me have a sad. So please, for the sake of this thread please, can we stop with all this inflammatory garbage.

[Bryy_Miller]

Eromenos wrote...
 That wouldn't be homophobia at all. 

You know, I said I was going away, but now I foolishly decided to click on the thread again. So here goes: nowhere did Gaider say anything about "worrying about being homophobic". You're just reading homophobia into EVERYTHING. Literally everything. Hey, you know what? All the human main party members are white. Does that mean BioWare (and subsequently EA) are racist? According to your logic, it must. Nevermind that people have actually accused BioWare of being racist for including Jacob in Mass Effect 2. But it absolutely boggles my mind that you can just shrug off an actual developers comments so smugly. David Gaider wrote Zevran, and he's telling you what was going through his head, but that's not good enough for you. No, he has to be secretly a homophobe. How rabid a fan of anything do you have to be to ignore the creator of what you love when they try to have a discussion with you? And don't even get me started on how you have blatantly ignored all of the other gay members of the forum when they have tried to talk to you. Jimmy Fury tries to tell his side of the story, and your reaction is... what? Other gays can have differing viewpoints from your own, you know. I'm sure that you probably think all those people that wrote letters to Gaider are "self-hating gays" or something like that. 

Not everyone is homophobic just because they don't cater to your view on homosexuality. Not everyone is a self-hating gay just because they don't share your viewpoint. 

Look at me, all worked up over a video game website.