2001 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

*pats Bryy on the head* I know it's frustrating.

Cookie?

Edit: No this isn't supposed to be chastising.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 janvier 2011 - 05:47 .

[NKKKK]

Look at me, all worked up over a video game website.

Yes look at you

[pallascedar]

I just want to point out again that stating that Bioware is homophobic for putting in Bi romances instead of exclusively gay once...that's pretty biphobic.

[Dhiro]

Maria Caliban wrote...


I have nothing against a dwarven romance. I thought Sigrun in Awakening was adorable and would gladly take her behind a tree for a slap and tickle.

...This expression, it's so much win. <3

[HolyMoogle]

I think it's unfortunate, this situation this thread has gotten into.

David, you're absolutely right that at the end of the day developers have to abide by certain (and unfortunate) economic realities. The fact that Bioware is including same-sex romances at all certainly places it on a far higher plane than most other developers.

But please understand that being on that higher plane inevitably means you will be held to a higher standard. Since same-sex romances are not commonplace in video games, there are going to be GLBT people who are going to point out the flaws in the romances you have written. More or less no other (videogame) writers do what you do - I'm not saying that you're not experienced enough to write same-sex romances at all, but you've put yourself out there, and people are going to have opinions about the GLBT romances just like others will about the heterosexual ones. It's inevitable, and you certainly shouldn't feel deflated by it.

I have to say, Eromenos makes some very good points. As much as I love Bioware for including these romances, they are not without fault. But as I've said, this is simply the result of your being some of the first developers to address such romances. I have my own issues with Sky and Zevran, but I think that perhaps Eromenos is just getting a little to involved with the issue. After reading his posts, I almost feel something of a kindred spirit with him - up until a few years ago, we couldn't really discuss GLBT issues in videogames at all. Now we have a tiny window in a few Bioware products, and there are a lot of feelings that need to be expressed. It's not really fair for all those feelings to be dumped on you, though, David. It's just that since Bioware games are really the only place we can see same-sex romances in video games, we inevitably want them to be "perfect" - and given the complexity of GLBT politics/gender politics, it's an impossible expectation to have.

In any case, congrats to you David on your achievements so far, and don't let anything make you feel deflated or discouraged. There's nothing I'd like more than for you to continue with the same-sex romances, and I hope that other developers follow your example.

Modifié par HolyMoogle, 03 janvier 2011 - 11:40 .

[IainCD]

The very first time I played through DA.O (having read no spoilers) I was amazed and quite thrilled when Zevran started to flirt with my male human warrior - it was the first time I had experienced that kind of option within a game (though admittedly I don't play all that many) and I was almost embarassingly grateful to Bioware for including it. I can honestly say that DA-O is easily the game I have replayed the most (about nine different Wardens so far) and I never tire of it. I have done all the romances and enjoyed them all. Yes, I personally would have loved to be able to romance Alistair as a M/M option because he was easily my favourite character but I made do with bromance and enjoyed his romance options with my female Wardens instead!



I fully appreciate the difficulties writers have in trying to cater to all tastes and I'm sure I am one of the many who salute the DA writers for including S/S options at all - there are so many others who do not. As a player, I can express what I would and wouldn't like to see and of course I can be happy or not with what I get but I accept that I am not 'entitled' to anything. Its the writers' story and they who are creating it. I'm grateful that the DA writers aim to be as inclusive as they can.



As for what I'd like to see in DA2 - well, I have to say that neither Varric or Fenris are doing it for me at the moment (from the little we know about them). Personally, like many have expressed, I would like a human male LI - kind of normal but with a few quirks here and there, decent looking. A dry sense of humour would be nice - I always liked Nathaniel in Awakenings so someone like that but frankly, I'll take what I can get :-)

[LukaCrosszeria]

IainCD wrote...

The very first time I played through DA.O (having read no spoilers) I was amazed and quite thrilled when Zevran started to flirt with my male human warrior - it was the first time I had experienced that kind of option within a game (though admittedly I don't play all that many) and I was almost embarassingly grateful to Bioware for including it. I can honestly say that DA-O is easily the game I have replayed the most (about nine different Wardens so far) and I never tire of it.

You wrote down exactly how I felt!  Zevran is my favorite character in DA:O. I was thrilled too when he came on to my pretty elf mage. And then there was the scene, which was far more than I expected, I though they were just going to kiss. 720p HD and popcorn 

Ah, I simply adore BioWare. May they continue to make excellent games for a lot, loooot longer.

[Alexia89]

You could make the character exclusively gay or straight based on if you choose Female or Male...just change it slightly so they confirm they only go one way in that play through. Kinda of like the way being a mage kill bethany. Its all alternate universes.

[Jimmy Fury]

David Gaider wrote...
I received an email from a young man who said DA:O helped him come out to his gamer brother-- and this was someone who, he told me, had never come out to anyone. It was so emotionally raw it was difficult to read, but I was glad to receive it nonetheless. Sometimes it's easier to pay attention to the loud, obnoxious folks because it seems like they're the ones most demanding a response... but it's also nice to hear sometimes that you've had an effect on someone.

Well... loud obnoxious people are loud and obnoxious so they tend to drown the rest of us out. Many many many of us appreciate what you've done and what you continue to do.

(and you should be writing the DA comic. Not that overrated hack they have now... )

[highcastle]

I'll add my voice in with the others who appreciated the content in Origins and is thrilled to see it back in DA2. Honestly, after ME2, I was rather cynical about whether we'd see similar cuts in the DA franchise. It's refreshing to see that it didn't happen, and I'm now looking forward to DA2 more than ever.

[ScotGaymer]

highcastle wrote...

I'll add my voice in with the others who appreciated the content in Origins and is thrilled to see it back in DA2. Honestly, after ME2, I was rather cynical about whether we'd see similar cuts in the DA franchise. It's refreshing to see that it didn't happen, and I'm now looking forward to DA2 more than ever.

This.

I totally agree. But fortunately the DA team is not the ME team (thankfully) and we have DG fighting for us there. ME doesnt have an analogue of him so we just got the middle finger from the ME team.
I remember someone saying once that the ME wasnt even in the same building as the DA team - but I dont know if thats true or not; but it would certainly explain a lot.

[David Gaider]

FitScotGaymer wrote...
I totally agree. But fortunately the DA team is not the ME team (thankfully) and we have DG fighting for us there. ME doesnt have an analogue of him so we just got the middle finger from the ME team.
I remember someone saying once that the ME wasnt even in the same building as the DA team - but I dont know if thats true or not; but it would certainly explain a lot.

The ME team is in the same building as the DA team-- on a different floor, perhaps, but the same building. I don't know that I would go so far as to characterize them as "giving you the middle finger", though. I've said before that it's a trade off with regards to where you put your effort: either more choices for a larger portion of your audience or less choices for everyone (DAO had, after all, just one "choice" for gay players and two for straight players... while ME2 had three choices for straight players). While this allocation of resources isn't to the benefit of gay players, certainly, I don't think you can characterize such a decision as deliberately insulting when its advantages on the whole are considered (from a development perspective, I mean).

Not that I would suggest you'd like it, of course, but even I can see why a team might make such a decision even if I have no special insight into their exact process. Considering that the benefit of adding such content is dubious when you evidently still receive flak if you don't go far enough to please some, I don't know that I can personally fault a team for simply not going there... and in the end it would still take someone on the team who's interested in adding such content. There's no corporate mandate to add in same-sex romances or not add them in-- as with any kind of content, there needs to be someone on the team who advocates adding something into a game, and in this instance that's just not always going to be there.

[philbo1965uk]

As a game ..much in the same sense as if it were a toothbrush.Bioware doesn't have to cater to the sexual deviance of the individual gamer,nor is it necersary to do so.



If Bioware want to add same sex romance..they should..if not ,shouldn't.It really should not be an issue.I fear the PC brigade attempt to go too far on occasion.What next a gay gamers rights council.



IMO as a game and if you must add sexual romance/cutscenes ,they should be limited to a moan and black screen.



It's bad enough knowing they are hormonal teeagers whacking one off over a cartoon character...without Bioware actually feeding these creepy sociapaths.(forgiving the irony)

[Ziggeh]

Well at least both extremes are represented.

[YoziMaiden]

Bioware caters to all sexuality... even those people with fetishes... look at Tali.



If she isn't the queen of kink, I will eat my proverbial hat.

[Jimmy Fury]

David Gaider wrote...
The ME team is in the same building as the DA team-- on a different floor, perhaps, but the same building. I don't know that I would go so far as to characterize them as "giving you the middle finger", though. I've said before that it's a trade off with regards to where you put your effort: either more choices for a larger portion of your audience or less choices for everyone (DAO had, after all, just one "choice" for gay players and two for straight players... while ME2 had three choices for straight players). While this allocation of resources isn't to the benefit of gay players, certainly, I don't think you can characterize such a decision as deliberately insulting when its advantages on the whole are considered (from a development perspective, I mean).

Not that I would suggest you'd like it, of course, but even I can see why a team might make such a decision even if I have no special insight into their exact process. Considering that the benefit of adding such content is dubious when you evidently still receive flak if you don't go far enough to please some, I don't know that I can personally fault a team for simply not going there... and in the end it would still take someone on the team who's interested in adding such content. There's no corporate mandate to add in same-sex romances or not add them in-- as with any kind of content, there needs to be someone on the team who advocates adding something into a game, and in this instance that's just not always going to be there.

I think the figurative finger came in the form of the "reasons" given by the ME team when they were asked why the content wasn't there in an interview.
Had it been simply "We had to make a choice between more options for the majority or fewer options for all" or "we didn't have the resources" or even "we just didn't want to" it would have been one thing.
But the whole thing about predefined characters, third person narrative, and the number of choices.... it was almost insulting.
I did the breakdown personally and Shepard is actually more customizable than The Warden in terms of all of the non-physical choices available to players. Mass Effect falls square into the definition of first-person narrative and DAO literally has a third-person narrator who tells you the history and covers the transitions!
It all came off sounding like a bunch of excuses and PR speak. Worst of all it seemed to be insulting our intelligence. Like we were too stupid to know the difference between first-person and third-person narratives... that was where a lot of us felt like we were getting the middle finger from them.

Unrelated note: oh wow it's been a while since the thread had a troll! how fun. [reports]

[Atakuma]

philbo1965uk wrote...

As a game ..much in the same sense as if it were a toothbrush.Bioware doesn't have to cater to the sexual deviance of the individual gamer,nor is it necersary to do so.

1. What the hell are you doing with your toothbrush?
2. I am very happy bioware feels it is worthwhile to cater to my "sexual deviancy"

[dgcatanisiri]

All right, did anyone else come here not to discuss philosophy and social issues and all that other stuff and just want to discuss what we want in a guy for our Hawke?

[Bryy_Miller]

philbo1965uk wrote...
It's bad enough knowing they are hormonal teeagers whacking one off over a cartoon character...without Bioware actually feeding these creepy sociapaths.(forgiving the irony)

I don't think you know what sociopath means. Or irony. But this conversation is obviously, clearly not for a gaming forum, so...

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 03 janvier 2011 - 07:56 .

[Cobrawar]

[inappropriate comments removed]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 03 janvier 2011 - 08:52 .

[RosaAquafire]

The thing about ME's team that rubbed me wrong is that, when asked for an explanation for the lack of gay romances, they responded than Shepard was their character and he wasn't gay. Which would sit fine with me ... if not for the fact that FemShip CAN be gay.

That's just a super uncomfortable double standard. People can say what they want about time and content and great portion of the userbase, but those romances just being there so guys can fetishize lesbians is really offensive to real life women Worse than anything else the gaming industry does to chicks, in fact, imo.

[ErichHartmann]

Is this hate day for some of you? /ignorance

Modifié par ErichHartmann, 03 janvier 2011 - 08:42 .

[upsettingshorts]

nm

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 janvier 2011 - 08:59 .